Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

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retroquark
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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by retroquark » July 4th, 2016, 6:44 pm

It's just that I've just seen another promising project (PoE) tweaked in about the same way. Adding new linear systems to make balancing individual encounters easier, towards an expected level progression.

It's not a ridiculous suggestion, given certain preconditions. And people who tweak gameplay wants something to do anyway. And it allows the dev to respond to user-feedback, and adjust the game based on that. So there's no problem, right?

The problem is that no one plays the "optimal" path through the game. Some don't like the companions, some pick a companion with the same class as them, some skip quests, some miss quests, etc. So on one side, people who don't level enough have to turn the combat difficulty down at some point(before going through any number of meta-trickery to avoid breaking immersion). And the ones who rake the levels for xp don't get the challenge they want. Meanwhile, the order you have to tackle the quests becomes dependent on what the devs balanced the system for - or, you have to play the game in the exact way the devs did, to get the "optimal experience". Worse than that, you also have to be playing with the same party setup, or you're going to have either difficulties, or very few difficulties respectively.

Further problems arise, and there's a lot of time until release, so clearly more balancing has to be done. So let's start figuring out how the different groups and party make-ups might affect difficulty. And we've already chosen this linear balancing model, so let's start finding the optimal answer by induction. This will eventually work perfectly, the community guys say, because the more we tweak, the closer we are to perfection.

By the time the game should launch, a lot of encounters are either removed or scripted to happen after certain other events. There's no longer any possibility of ending up with a too weak group unless you walk straight past certain companions, etc. And they get mystical gear that somehow is essential to beating a specific stat in the following fights. Encounters are balanced in such a way that no team make-up has a possibility of failing completely. And the rules are changed so that the governing stats always will be high enough to beat defenses, etc. The path you travel is also tweaked so that level progression has to go over a certain level before you enter a specific area (with some exceptions).

And yet, after the game launch approaches, the tweaks seem to mysteriously not end up creating a perfect game for everyone. Curses! How did this happen! The guys on the PoE team still don't seem to understand that balancing a linear system requires people to play the game in exactly the same way every time for it to not be unbalanced.

So they tweak some more, and add more stuff. And the end product is a system that, of course, is still not going to predict the future. And in addition also has become extremely rigid where player choice has become largely cosmetic. While the way you play and what you put on of equipment is crucial, and pretty much the same regardless of what class you're playing as. So that there's no link between your class in battle, your stats, and how you roleplay.

And the game, in spite of now being utterly boring, still doesn't solve the "balancing issues".

If that's not a problem for the Tton team and their game, I see no problem with that. They could with complete right argue that the main focus of the game is the writing anyway, and not the fighting. So if removing possible avenues of total failure can be done by simply adding a gradually increasing health-stat. And.. tweaking any number of abilities into that stat. And changing the entire rulesystem on the fly in the time between now and the delayed launch, etc. And adding healing sprayflesh as the most important resource in the game, up to the point where you win all fights by showing up. Until you reach the boss that required "special strategies" that you of course have now not been introduced to. Then by all means go ahead. It's their money and time, after all.

But if there was a solution available that was more subtle. That accounted for henchmen with no fighting ability. That allowed you to act during a fight much in the same way you role-play the game otherwise. Where tweaking the encounters could be done with an algorithm combined with a satisfying narrative component (i.e., as simple as that a migh character can bash their way through some mech-warriors, while a super-clever nano would go for an indirect approach - and you could add these to the encounter designs rather than sit and scratch your head over which numbers to turn up and down for eternity). And it really only required a few additional rescue-options for people with low stats, while making a more narratively pleasing AI (such as making the opponents not necessarily attack the biggest weakness in the party within reach every time, or for example be unable to simply swipe past powerful fighters without a movement penalty. Or that nasty things have to use active abilities to warp past defenses, giving you time to respond to what would otherwise be a first and final attack against your puny might or intellect, etc). Then wouldn't that be something to consider first?

I'm just making the suggestion, because as convenient as adding a linear system to the mix seems, it's going to mean a lot of work before it doesn't look like something put in to deliberately break immersion. And in the end it's still not going to actually solve the problem with people ending up having to adjust the game's difficulty to fit their playing style half-way anyway. Unless, of course, you just put the difficult down so far that you cannot die from one fight if you at all fight back, and so removing all tension from the game. And you essentially just force people to fedex to the rest sites whenever you do anything at all. And so on.

Also seen that other people have already suggested adding more tutorial content instead. Which seems reasonable. And whatever your opinion is, if you can save the team from spending many, many hours on changing game-content (that eventually is going to involve having to structure and script when encounters happen, as well as rewrite abilities for them to at all matter in the game) rather than focusing on changing things that really could be improved (such as pathfinding, how the UI works, how text is scrolled, finding graphics problems to sort out, testing different resolutions - stuff that also would be on that same team's plate anyway) -- then isn't that something to consider?

Over adding something to the game that really doesn't add anything, other than solve a narrow problem in the short term. I mean, just saying. :lol:

Anyway, have fun. Sorry I don't have confidence in much else than the Tton team's writing skills, and I sure will learn to avoid helping kickstart projects based on the initial proposal for simple but interesting rulesets in the future - but that's how that is. And there is a perfectly good example available nearby (PoE) to demonstrate exactly how this process works and where it leads. So please consider not copying that. And things.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by HarveyV » August 5th, 2016, 5:54 pm

oh LOOK
AT
THAT

DUMBED
DOWN
FOR
CONSOLE
KIDDIES

CAN'T WAIT TILL YOU ANNOUNCE THE BARD'S TALE IS GETTING A MAJOR DUMBING DOWN SO THE XBONERS CAN PLAY IT

JESUS

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Zombra » August 6th, 2016, 11:31 am

Did something new happen in the last month to rustle your jimmies all over again Harv? Or are you just drunk? :o
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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Dark_Kain » August 7th, 2016, 3:37 am

It's probably the heat.
I also would like to scream my insufferance toward this choice occasionally, but I have too much self-control.

Jokes aside, it is clearly because of the recent announcement about the console version of TTON. (that was published a few days ago https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/in ... ts/1647389)
In the announcement is stated that this will not affect the actual game and I'm not going to claim that this isn't true.

It is however quite the coincidence that just after the version that indeed added health to the game, changing drastically the core Numenera system to a more casual health system, came the annuncement for the console version.
So expect "casual gamers" haters pointing to the possibility that the health system was added to cater the casual console game community.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Zombra » August 7th, 2016, 12:37 pm

Ah, you are smart, Kain; thanks. I guess he just posted in the wrong thread instead of this one where his righteous screaming belongs.

Whatever, carry on people. ;)
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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by prodigydancer » August 7th, 2016, 9:53 pm

Dark_Kain wrote:It is however quite the coincidence that just after the version that indeed added health to the game, changing drastically the core Numenera system to a more casual health system, came the annuncement for the console version.
Yes, pure coincidence.

/facepalm

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by kilobug » August 8th, 2016, 12:27 am

Dark_Kain wrote:It is however quite the coincidence that just after the version that indeed added health to the game, changing drastically the core Numenera system to a more casual health system, came the annuncement for the console version.
Except it was clearly stated that the main reason behind introducing Health was to make balancing encounters, in the absence of a human DM, possible.

Now sure you can always dwell into conspiracy theory, rather than accepting the straight-forward and perfectly valid explanation.

As for "changing drastically the core Numenera system" it always makes me laugh to see people outraged when a "spiritual successor" of PST doesn't fully respect that pen&paper rules of the game it's based on. Among all the (A)D&D video games I played, PST was the one that broke and changed the *most* the rules, and they were right to do so. The system should serve the story and the gameplay, not the other way around. If the system goes in the way of the story you want to tell, or the way you want to tell, tweak it !

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Dark_Kain » August 9th, 2016, 10:49 am

kilobug wrote:
Dark_Kain wrote:It is however quite the coincidence that just after the version that indeed added health to the game, changing drastically the core Numenera system to a more casual health system, came the annuncement for the console version.
As for "changing drastically the core Numenera system" it always makes me laugh to see people outraged when a "spiritual successor" of PST doesn't fully respect that pen&paper rules of the game it's based on. Among all the (A)D&D video games I played, PST was the one that broke and changed the *most* the rules, and they were right to do so. The system should serve the story and the gameplay, not the other way around. If the system goes in the way of the story you want to tell, or the way you want to tell, tweak it !
Except that, while PS:T changed the rules, it didn't change the CORE rules of AD&D 2nd edition.
Thac0 was there, lower (and negative) numbers of Thac0 and AC being better than bigger was there, the vancian magic system was there.

The change imposed to the Numenera game system by adding this healtbar is far, FAR, bigger than removing the vancian magic system from AD&D 2nd edition.
So, to be frank, I find your comparison lacking.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by kilobug » August 9th, 2016, 10:57 am

Dark_Kain wrote:Except that, while PS:T changed the rules, it didn't change the CORE rules of AD&D 2nd edition.
Thac0 was there, lower (and negative) numbers of Thac0 and AC being better than bigger was there, the vancian magic system was there.
What's "core rule" is highly subjective - but "you don't gain ability score when leveling up", "once you've chosen your class(es) it's forever" and "if you change your alignment, you get huge penalties" are very much core rules of AD&D2 to me, much more than purely mechanical aspects such as "reverse" THAC0 and AC (that armor changes your chance to hit, not the damages done is core rules - the but THAC0/AC in AD&D2 or BAB/AC in D&D3+ that's purely mechanical not really important).
Dark_Kain wrote:The change imposed to the Numenera game system by adding this healtbar is far, FAR, bigger than removing the vancian magic system from AD&D 2nd edition.
So, to be frank, I find your comparison lacking.
It's much, much lower than gaining ability scores when leveling up or free switching between classes were for AD&D2.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 9th, 2016, 4:04 pm

Dark_Kain wrote:
kilobug wrote:
Dark_Kain wrote:It is however quite the coincidence that just after the version that indeed added health to the game, changing drastically the core Numenera system to a more casual health system, came the annuncement for the console version.
As for "changing drastically the core Numenera system" it always makes me laugh to see people outraged when a "spiritual successor" of PST doesn't fully respect that pen&paper rules of the game it's based on. Among all the (A)D&D video games I played, PST was the one that broke and changed the *most* the rules, and they were right to do so. The system should serve the story and the gameplay, not the other way around. If the system goes in the way of the story you want to tell, or the way you want to tell, tweak it !
Except that, while PS:T changed the rules, it didn't change the CORE rules of AD&D 2nd edition.
Thac0 was there, lower (and negative) numbers of Thac0 and AC being better than bigger was there, the vancian magic system was there.

The change imposed to the Numenera game system by adding this healtbar is far, FAR, bigger than removing the vancian magic system from AD&D 2nd edition.
So, to be frank, I find your comparison lacking.
I agree. They obviously made a major change to the "Core" rules. Adding a health bar is just about the most drastic change you could make to the Numenera rules. Its getting to the point that this isn't even a Numenera game at all.

1. The most fundamental of the cypher system rules has been abolished.
2. Almost none of the creatures are from the bestiary.
3. None of the companions are visitants or other optional races.

They have certainly taken some liberties that's for sure.
Still, I don't think any of those things by them self will determine whether or not the game is good or bad. Its a video game and not a table top game so I personally don't mind it. I do think its a shame though. The cypher system was supposedly the easiest system to translate into a video game. So I am surprised they had to make such a drastic change. Well, I was surprised until I found out this was going straight to console. Now its just another Journal update.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 9th, 2016, 5:49 pm

kilobug wrote:
Dark_Kain wrote:Except that, while PS:T changed the rules, it didn't change the CORE rules of AD&D 2nd edition.
Thac0 was there, lower (and negative) numbers of Thac0 and AC being better than bigger was there, the vancian magic system was there.
What's "core rule" is highly subjective - but "you don't gain ability score when leveling up", "once you've chosen your class(es) it's forever" and "if you change your alignment, you get huge penalties" are very much core rules of AD&D2 to me, much more than purely mechanical aspects such as "reverse" THAC0 and AC (that armor changes your chance to hit, not the damages done is core rules - the but THAC0/AC in AD&D2 or BAB/AC in D&D3+ that's purely mechanical not really important).
Dark_Kain wrote:The change imposed to the Numenera game system by adding this healtbar is far, FAR, bigger than removing the vancian magic system from AD&D 2nd edition.
So, to be frank, I find your comparison lacking.
It's much, much lower than gaining ability scores when leveling up or free switching between classes were for AD&D2.
What other change to the Cypher system could they of made that would of been a more significant change to the rules? I can't think of a bigger way for them to stray from the Cypher System rules then adding a health bar can you? If you can I'd love for you to list a few.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by kilobug » August 10th, 2016, 12:18 am

anonymous6059 wrote:What other change to the Cypher system could they of made that would of been a more significant change to the rules? I can't think of a bigger way for them to stray from the Cypher System rules then adding a health bar can you? If you can I'd love for you to list a few.
Remove Effort ? Remove the "I'm an <adjective> <noun> who <verbs>" part ? Remove GM intrusions (which, actually, is almost impossible to implement in a computer game so, well) ? Make a D&D-kind armor (that changes probability to hit, not damages when hit) ? Make cyphers mostly irrelevant/rare to find/easy to stack ? Change the "magic system" from estories you gain when "leveling" to spells you learn from books ?

All those would be much bigger changes than adding an health bar. And the changes done in PST compared to AD&D2 (free class-switching, gaining attribute points on level up, ...) are more like those I listed above, than like adding an health bar.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by kilobug » August 10th, 2016, 12:31 am

anonymous6059 wrote:1. The most fundamental of the cypher system rules has been abolished.
Never occurred to me that "no health bar" would be considered the "most fundamental rule" of the cypher system. In fact the word "cyper" is actually in the name. The most fundamental rule of the cypher system, if I were to chose one, is cyphers - one use, varied in effect objects, that you encounter regularly but can't stockpile. Things like Effort or GM intrusions, or in general the fact it's a streamlined, very low-weight systems, would also be much more "fundamental" than a relatively minor detail like an health bar.
anonymous6059 wrote:2. Almost none of the creatures are from the bestiary.
How is that a problem ? The "core" bestiary is only a tiny sample of all the creatures and weird entities that roams the Ninth World, and pretty much Steadfast-centered. PST also had only few of creatures from the core AD&D2 bestiary (didn't even a dragon !) and that's all fine - it's Planescape and got its creatures from Planescape bestiary. TTON is _voluntarily_ set in a different part of the world than the Steadfast, and has creatures from that part of the world, which (for some) will be in the TTON Explorer's Guide.

The same way that an "Into the Deep" or "Into the Night" game would have few creatures from the core bestiary - but more from those supplements.
anonymous6059 wrote:3. None of the companions are visitants or other optional races.
That is indeed regrettable IMHO, but it's not like it's something fundamental to Numénera - Numénera is pretty much written with humans PCs in mind, visitants being an added optional feature, and while they are cool, a group of only humans PCs would still make a great Numénera campaign.
anonymous6059 wrote:The cypher system was supposedly the easiest system to translate into a video game. So I am surprised they had to make such a drastic change.
What ? The cypher system is _very hard_ to translate into a video game. Being a very light-weight system, it heavily depends on a human GM to do all the adjudication. Stuff like "GM intrusions" are hellish to implement in a video game, Effort means massive headaches for UI designers, ... The more mechanical a system is, the easiest it is to translate into computer program. The more "open" a system is, the more it relies on the GM and player's creativity and imagination (which the Cypher system heavily does) the harder it is.
anonymous6059 wrote:Well, I was surprised until I found out this was going straight to console. Now its just another Journal update.
What does the health bar have to do with consoles at all ?

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 10th, 2016, 6:50 am

kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:1. The most fundamental of the cypher system rules has been abolished.
Never occurred to me that "no health bar" would be considered the "most fundamental rule" of the cypher system. In fact the word "cyper" is actually in the name. The most fundamental rule of the cypher system, if I were to chose one, is cyphers - one use, varied in effect objects, that you encounter regularly but can't stockpile. Things like Effort or GM intrusions, or in general the fact it's a streamlined, very low-weight systems, would also be much more "fundamental" than a relatively minor detail like an health bar.
While I don't agree that altering cyphers would make any difference (you'd just call them artifacts then) I will agree that Removing effort would obviously be a fundamental change. My point is that Numenera only has a hand full of real "rules" so I don't see how you can not consider adding a Health bar to be a major change. Just about any change to the rules would be a major one since so few exist.
kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:2. Almost none of the creatures are from the bestiary.
How is that a problem ? The "core" bestiary is only a tiny sample of all the creatures and weird entities that roams the Ninth World, and pretty much Steadfast-centered. PST also had only few of creatures from the core AD&D2 bestiary (didn't even a dragon !) and that's all fine - it's Planescape and got its creatures from Planescape bestiary. TTON is _voluntarily_ set in a different part of the world than the Steadfast, and has creatures from that part of the world, which (for some) will be in the TTON Explorer's Guide.

The same way that an "Into the Deep" or "Into the Night" game would have few creatures from the core bestiary - but more from those supplements.
I'm not saying that its a problem by itself. I don't mind seeing new creatures and discovering new areas of the Ninth world at all. I'm just saying that when looked at along side all the other changes it starts to feel like a totally unrelated game. Your comparison to Planescape doesn't make any sense to me. PS:T had creatures from the planescape bestiary. TToN has creatures from.... its own *new* bestiary. PS:T didn't create its own creatures specifically for its videogame. It took them from the bestiary that Planescape made.

The point is clear. Inxile made what they wanted to make. They were given the reigns and they decided to make everything from scratch. That in itself isn't a bad thing. It could turn out to be an amazing and wonderful thing for them to of done. I'm simply pointing out that they obviously took a lot of liberties. Some good and maybe some bad.
kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:The cypher system was supposedly the easiest system to translate into a video game. So I am surprised they had to make such a drastic change.
What ? The cypher system is _very hard_ to translate into a video game. Being a very light-weight system, it heavily depends on a human GM to do all the adjudication. Stuff like "GM intrusions" are hellish to implement in a video game, Effort means massive headaches for UI designers, ... The more mechanical a system is, the easiest it is to translate into computer program. The more "open" a system is, the more it relies on the GM and player's creativity and imagination (which the Cypher system heavily does) the harder it is.
The Cypher System only has a handful of rules. The simplicity of the system should make it easier to translate to tabletop. Sure, somethings like GM Intrusions can't easily be transferred, but that's really about it.
"In the videogame, it (effort) should mean that Torment allows you to make extreme character builds, without the devs needing to fear that players will block too much of the game off for themselves or end up crippled." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/12/20/numenera/

However, reading further into the article it does describe many of the hardships that you mention, but I don't think Effort is one of them. I also do not think that more rules makes it easier for translation. However, I will concede that perhaps the fact that you can't spend XP to reroll would create the kind of situation that might require a health bar, maybe.


kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:Well, I was surprised until I found out this was going straight to console. Now its just another Journal update.
What does the health bar have to do with consoles at all ?
If you don't believe that a correlation exist between the two that's fine. I however do think that its not just a coincidence. Everything from inventory management to controls are simplified for console. I'm not saying that its the only factor of course, but from what I've seen games always get abridged for console. Perhaps several other factors would of also tipped the scale regardless. Either way, both do have something in common: They both guarantee that the game is getting "dumbed down".

"Now one could argue that these were simply design choices, made to simplify controls and improve gameplay… and that’s where you’d walk in to the trap. Simplify is surely another way of saying “dumbed down”. Dumbed down for what specifically? Consoles."
https://levelskip.com/misc/Video-Games-Console

Lastly, I'm not saying that any of this is going to ruin the game. I still think that the game can and very well might be amazing, but I still think that its true. Adding a health bar to the mechanics is a major change to the Cypher System rules. Its one of the rules that players have the hardest time getting used to as well. It's one of the more unique rules in the Cypher System. So getting rid of it isn't trivial. With that said it may still of been the best choice. I'm not questioning Inxile's decision and I really believe they know what they are doing. I just don't think the change is negligible.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Brother None » August 10th, 2016, 2:15 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:1. The most fundamental of the cypher system rules has been abolished.
2. Almost none of the creatures are from the bestiary.
I don't want to get into too much of a debate (I'm way too busy :P) so I'm not going to beat-for-beat here, but I will point out that health pool is a common house rule and any change we made to systems was done for computer design considerations and approved by Monte Cook.

As for the bestiary creatures - when we started designing this game, the corebook was still in stages of being finalized, and the bestiary didn't exist, so many areas were designed before a lot of MCG's expansions to the setting, which is part of the reason they gave us our own corner of the setting. That said, there are certainly a lot of creatures from the books (primarily corebook) dotted throughout (and we additionally try to reference some of the bestiary creatures in item descriptions or dialog where we could)
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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 11th, 2016, 3:42 am

Brother None wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:1. The most fundamental of the cypher system rules has been abolished.
2. Almost none of the creatures are from the bestiary.
I don't want to get into too much of a debate (I'm way too busy :P) so I'm not going to beat-for-beat here, but I will point out that health pool is a common house rule and any change we made to systems was done for computer design considerations and approved by Monte Cook.

As for the bestiary creatures - when we started designing this game, the corebook was still in stages of being finalized, and the bestiary didn't exist, so many areas were designed before a lot of MCG's expansions to the setting, which is part of the reason they gave us our own corner of the setting. That said, there are certainly a lot of creatures from the books (primarily corebook) dotted throughout (and we additionally try to reference some of the bestiary creatures in item descriptions or dialog where we could)
I know you must have received the blessing of Monte Cook Games before you made such a radical alteration, but I still feel that it is a major change to the rules. One of the more defining aspects of the Cypher System is the lack of a standard Health bar. Having your health and stats mixed together is something that I honestly haven't seen done in any other system. That said, it's also one of the most confusing transitions for D&D players to make when they come to the Cypher System.

My intent isn't to criticize your action negatively. I was simply trying to point out that it isn't a trivial alteration. It changes one of the fundamental aspects of the mechanics of the game (even if some do use health bars as a house rule). I honestly have no clue if Inxile really had to make this change or not. They hadn't made it all the way up to the Beta release so I find it hard to believe that it was absolutely necessary. The end result could still be a very useful addition that makes the game more enjoyable.

As for the Bestiary, I don't feel that is necessarily a bad decision by Inxile.
My point is that Inxile's game could be called Torment: Tides of ____ and it would stand on its own merits.
Sure, TToN is laced with lots of Numenera lore, but visually it's a completely different world. You do not actually see much of the creatures from the Ninth world in the game or at least far less then you do Inxile's own creations. A world full of its own creatures, its own heroes, and its own rules. You could remove the word Numenera from the title, and at face value most people wouldn't know it's a Numenera game. That is what I'm assuming Inxile wanted to make. They want a game that is going to stand by itself. The only downside to that is it doesn't have as many crutches to rely on.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by kaiman » August 11th, 2016, 7:07 am

anonymous6059 wrote:My intent isn't to criticize your action negatively. I was simply trying to point out that it isn't a trivial alteration. It changes one of the fundamental aspects of the mechanics of the game (even if some do use health bars as a house rule). I honestly have no clue if Inxile really had to make this change or not. They hadn't made it all the way up to the Beta release so I find it hard to believe that it was absolutely necessary. The end result could still be a very useful addition that makes the game more enjoyable.
I'm with you, in that I find the concept of combined health and stat pools new and refreshing, and somehow fitting to a unconventional game such as TToN. Having not played the beta (or the P&P), it's hard to judge how well the old, more faithful system worked compared to the new one, what pros and cons each of them have.

I'm definitely nobody that would care much about slavishly following the Numenera ruleset, though I would be displeased if the change was mostly based on input from the early beta players. I believe one of the reasons given by inXile were "balancing issues", but the question remains whether those were found through internal testing, or whether they were mostly user feedback. Feedback of users that were possibly not yet accustomed to the radical changes over more traditional RPG systems.

I can definitely see how it might be hard to properly balance the pools throughout the game when people might deplete them just before combat or an important task looms ahead. But then I thought that failure was to be considered as a legitimate outcome of an action, and lead to new and interesting game states, not to game over. In that case, wouldn't the stat pools be largely irrelevant, other than to also achieve critical successes at a few occassions, which then lead to new and interesting game states? So I am really wondering if the introduction of health is an indication that failure is not an option, despite design goals stating the contrary? Now that has me worried ...

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by Zombra » August 11th, 2016, 9:05 am

anonymous6059 wrote:Sure, TToN is laced with lots of Numenera lore, but visually it's a completely different world. You do not actually see much of the creatures from the Ninth world in the game or at least far less then you do Inxile's own creations. A world full of its own creatures, its own heroes, and its own rules. You could remove the word Numenera from the title, and at face value most people wouldn't know it's a Numenera game.
The P&P bestiary isn't ALL the creatures of the 9th World, silly. And it's no more a departure from the rules than a lot of official D&D games depart from the P&P books. COULD they remove all references to Numenera, throw out the rest of the rules and make all new ones, and have it stand as its own IP? Of course they could.

... So what?
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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 11th, 2016, 12:04 pm

Zombra wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:Sure, TToN is laced with lots of Numenera lore, but visually it's a completely different world. You do not actually see much of the creatures from the Ninth world in the game or at least far less then you do Inxile's own creations. A world full of its own creatures, its own heroes, and its own rules. You could remove the word Numenera from the title, and at face value most people wouldn't know it's a Numenera game.
The P&P bestiary isn't ALL the creatures of the 9th World, silly. And it's no more a departure from the rules than a lot of official D&D games depart from the P&P books. COULD they remove all references to Numenera, throw out the rest of the rules and make all new ones, and have it stand as its own IP? Of course they could.

... So what?
I was only pointing this out as part of something else i was discussing. TToN has deviated (with Monte Cook Games consent) in several fundamental ways. The focus of the thread is specifically about the introduction of a Health Bar. My argument is that: Yes it is a major alteration to the rules of the Cypher System. Not that I'm saying its a good or bad change, just that its not trivial or insignificant. The system is light on its rules in the first place so altering the rules in just about any way is a substantial alteration. The whole Bestiary comment was just an example of how Inxile has made several major "contributions", changes, or complete insertions into the world of Numenera to the point where it could almost stand as its own product.

In other words I was simply making an observation. I wasn't saying that it meant anything significant.
Last edited by anonymous6059 on August 11th, 2016, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making Health its own stat is an excellent move.

Post by anonymous6059 » August 11th, 2016, 12:22 pm

kaiman wrote: I can definitely see how it might be hard to properly balance the pools throughout the game when people might deplete them just before combat or an important task looms ahead. But then I thought that failure was to be considered as a legitimate outcome of an action, and lead to new and interesting game states, not to game over. In that case, wouldn't the stat pools be largely irrelevant, other than to also achieve critical successes at a few occassions, which then lead to new and interesting game states? So I am really wondering if the introduction of health is an indication that failure is not an option, despite design goals stating the contrary? Now that has me worried ...
This has to be one of the best objections/thoughts that I've heard concerning the addition. I hadn't really thought it through as far as you had so you really opened my eyes on this problem. You're right. Failure, most of the time, shouldn't force the PC to reload from an earlier save point. That means that if you don't come into a fight "well prepared" the consequences should be just as interesting as if you had.

The problem here I think has to do with us human beings. In theory what you're saying should be the ultimate dream and perhaps it was until the Beta. This is all speculation, The problem is most people sadly have a hard time thinking outside the box, viewing things in a new way. Most people see a NPC with a health bar and instantly feel the need to kill them. Why else would they have a health bar? Its easy to fall into a groove and only see things as right or wrong. One example where this seems to of become a issue is with the Meres. I don't know a great deal about the exact issue, but I think if you know what thread I'm referring to you'll agree.

Anyway, my point is that no matter how lofty the dreams inxile may of had their biggest enemy is us gamers. Most gamers simply become frustrated if they lose a fight, can't get the "best" benefits, or have the cake and eat it too. So they are forced to "dumb down" the game enough so that players can enjoy most of what it has to offer. This domino effect eventually lead to alterations like the insertion of the Health bar.

Obviously I have no clue if that's true or not. I just think its a interesting point and even if it is true I don't think its necessarily all that terrible. They are simply making adjustments to help make the greatest number of players happy. The only downside is that it could lead to a mediocre experience for more serious or thoughtful players.

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