A seamless world-box

For all Wasteland 2 discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Plasmablaster
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A seamless world-box

Post by Plasmablaster » March 14th, 2012, 7:11 am

For a start I'll say that I've never played Wasteland so whatever I say comes from playing all the fallout games (1,2,3,NV). So here it goes:

There's been a lot of discussion with my gaming friends about what made fallout 1 & 2 feel so much better than fallout 3+ and to a lesser extent NV. We have agreed on a number of points and one of the strongest is that Fallout 1 & 2 left much more room for the imagination to go "haywire". They always gave you the sensation that there is much more to the world than what you could access, that the world is very big and thus containing things that weren't necessarily depicted within the game.

We came to the conclusion that the main tool for that was the world map and travelling in it. The transition from world map to local map was of course a necessity because of the technology of the games but also helped create the feeling of a world so big that you really needed days to travel from one point to another. In FO 3 & NV, you needed only a few hours to travel from one edge of their "world boxes" to the opposite. Nomatter how "far" the mountains looked to be in the horizon, you always had this feeling of being in a small, confined box. Moreover, in FO 1 & 2, having the majority of the world map without any detailed, visual description allowed for what books famously allow you to do: Fill in with your own imagination and in your mind co-create the world with the game developer instead of having him describe even the tiniest detail for you. Even further, this transition also marked the change from "travel" psychology to "settle" psychology, which can be understood by anyone who has travelled with his own vehicle. It made you feel like you were part of a very big adventure where every settlement and/or landmark was a different chapter in the whole story.

I still remember the indescribable feeling of travelling on foot in the fallout 2 "travel" map, listening to that bone-chilling score and as the sun/moon "clock" rotated I couldn't help but keep imagining what kind of hardships, heat. cold, hunger or radiation the wasteland was throwing at my characters as they trudged across it. Priceless and totally absent from FO 3 & NV.

So, I would suggest no imagination-killing "seamless" world-box, (it could easily be managed by today's computers) but stick to a world/local map transition method for depicting the game world.
My personal project of sci fi love:

http://www.plasmablastgames.com

Lots of quality sci-fi tank and aircraft models in 1/300 scale.

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Cold Zer0
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Cold Zer0 » March 14th, 2012, 8:16 am

Agreed.

You'll be happy to know that original Wasteland did have World Map travel. I completely support that feature and wish to see it back in W2.

Elthosian
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Elthosian » March 14th, 2012, 1:51 pm

I agree with the World Map idea, another thing I hate is that, for example, in New Vegas locations felt way too underdeveloped, with only three or four interesting quests and characters on many of them, due to they having to design a lot of world-space, space that was, in my opinion, totally useless, aside from NV, there were no locations like New Reno, Vault City, NCR, Redding, Gecko, San Francisco and so on, with lots of people to talk to, you should keep the work in the main locations, there is no need to make generic cave 17, or stupidly placed destroyed cottage no. 50, and so on, give us well designed dungeons and cities!

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Kide
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Kide » March 14th, 2012, 2:24 pm

Could not agree more! Definitly the locations that are made, should be indeed very detailed, and there is no need to have endless amounts of the same looking caves or such around that have no other point than so that there would be something in the wasteland...

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Wanderer
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Wanderer » March 15th, 2012, 2:12 am

I agree, World Map travel is a must ;)

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Zbikey
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Zbikey » March 15th, 2012, 3:52 pm

Totally agree about the world map. It creates a fantastic sense of isolation.

The way I see it this sense of isolation was responsible for some of the most memorable moral choices in Fallout. Remember when you met a lone trader on the road and you shot him just to get his stuff, even though your character was a goody-two-shoes in towns? This was possible largely thanks to the world map. It is very important to replicate this feeling as it is a much more integral part of Wasteland 1 than Fallout IMO. The feeling of freedom in Wasteland 1 is virtually unparalleled, you can wreck entire communities and there are no consequences really, just your internal moral compass. There's no childkiller perk to make you vilified throughout the world and in virtually every significant firefight there are helpless victims. Wasteland's moral ambiguity was much more pronounced than even Fallout's.

The communities in Wasteland 1 were really isolated, it was no Fallout 2 with the complex politics. I would love to see that in Wasteland 2.

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Plasmablaster
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Re: A seamless world-box

Post by Plasmablaster » March 15th, 2012, 5:13 pm

Zbikey wrote:Totally agree about the world map. It creates a fantastic sense of isolation.

The way I see it this sense of isolation was responsible for some of the most memorable moral choices in Fallout. Remember when you met a lone trader on the road and you shot him just to get his stuff, even though your character was a goody-two-shoes in towns? This was possible largely thanks to the world map. It is very important to replicate this feeling as it is a much more integral part of Wasteland 1 than Fallout IMO. The feeling of freedom in Wasteland 1 is virtually unparalleled, you can wreck entire communities and there are no consequences really, just your internal moral compass. There's no childkiller perk to make you vilified throughout the world and in virtually every significant firefight there are helpless victims. Wasteland's moral ambiguity was much more pronounced than even Fallout's.

The communities in Wasteland 1 were really isolated, it was no Fallout 2 with the complex politics. I would love to see that in Wasteland 2.
Yes, you raise yet another point in favor of a world map that I'd never thought of or maybe it is a different aspect of what I called "travel vs settle psychology". Having settlements separated by seas of desolate wasteland creates the true meaning of a "generalised wasteland" and that travel is serious business: always perilous and resource-demanding, and sometimes agonizing and life-threatening.

About the total moral freedom I'm in doubt however, I really don't know what kind of feeling a game without any consequences on your moral choices would present to the player. I believe that yes, instant and global vilification -or idolization- isn't very realistic, but there is always a moral code in every human community and many people in such communitites who will act upon their own views on morality, meaning that some might like you more and some less pertaining to what you have done. So there should be some consequences on how people react towards you depending on what you've done, just maybe not in the instant and globalized manner of the fallouts.
My personal project of sci fi love:

http://www.plasmablastgames.com

Lots of quality sci-fi tank and aircraft models in 1/300 scale.

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