AD is a hotheaded moron

Discuss the story & quests of Wasteland 3. Please avoid spoilers in subject lines.

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Angela Deth... /facepalm

Her big idea is to go to war against a guy who is dying, and won't be in power for much longer?? And who in spite of being a less than perfect guy, actually created one of the only actual known thriving civilizations in the Wastes? Yeah, he may sell off some criminals to freaky kite people and pay off slavers, but how many more people would be dying if Colorado Springs was just another unprotected shithole? Wouldn't the situation be like 100x worse for everyone? And if Ranger Team November won't get behind her, she starts a war with the Rangers too? And in so doing, is willing to let all of her friends back in Arizona suffer and starve?

But wait. There's MORE@ And yet, she wants November to support Ironclad Cordite, a Slaver warlord who is planning to later head east to Kansas to enslave all of the innocent folks living there, before eventually coming back for Colorado. And she justifies her idiocy by saying its the "Ranger way".

So let me see. The people in Colorado really, really matter to her. The ones in Kansas can go ahead and all get thrown in cages. And her friends in Arizona? Well, she clearly has to help the people in CO IMMEDIATELY, so I guess AZ will need to starve and die, because to hell with getting your much needed food and supplies. Don't you understand? There's a bad guy in power in CO, so nothing else but that matters. Couldn't she have at least worked with the Patriarch for long enough to get a good amount of supplies sent back home, and wait to see if the man would just croak of natural causes? Her logic lacks any... logic.

She was kind of an idiot in WL2 also, murdering Samuel Haas, umm, because he happened to be present when Ace was gunned down by a deadly Synth? What was a snake squeezins salesman supposed to do? And then having her team in Los Angeles fly right up to huge robots to get a closer look right as they shot her out of the sky. Did she really think flying up to get a closer look was a good call?

For half a second I considered allying her, mostly for the nostalgia of working with her and Takayuki and Pistol Pete again. But, her plan always seemed ridiculous and misguidedly self-righteous, so at the last minute I decided I could not go that route. Now that I'm supporting the Patriarch and am seeing what she's doing, it's just pure idiocy. If anyone needs to die, it's actually her. She's just a total and absolute disaster.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

I think one of the most frustrating parts, is that there are no good dialogue options you can use to explain to Angela why her plan is so unhinged. As if logic cannot be allowed because that would prevent the big climax of the game?

You either gotta be crazy one way, or crazy the other way. Can't have a reasonable middle ground. No sir.
User avatar
Stuurminator
Scholar
Posts: 239
Joined: March 23rd, 2014, 12:43 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Stuurminator »

Something tells me Angela was the one that shot Bobby.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Stuurminator wrote: September 20th, 2020, 3:46 pm Something tells me Angela was the one that shot Bobby.
I don't know for sure, but yeah, that tracks.
User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10173
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Drool »

Crazy thing is, she started with a 15 IQ. She was the smart one!
Alwa nasci korliri das.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Drool wrote: September 20th, 2020, 4:55 pm Crazy thing is, she started with a 15 IQ. She was the smart one!
Maybe she just lost a few too many screws after Ace died.
User avatar
Juris
Scholar
Posts: 127
Joined: November 25th, 2014, 9:41 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Juris »

This was discussed in another thread and I said my thoughts, but now I finished an AD playthrough and I can definitely say deposing the Patriarch is a really bad idea.

Spoilers:



The best AD outcome seems to be staying in CO and moving the rangers to CO. Essentially abandoning AZ. But at least the Rangers that chose to come do okay. Maybe CO is better in the long run but you sacrifice AZ.

You can chose to return to AZ with the 'meager' rations which barely keep the rangers alive, but it's way less than siding with the Patriarch because essentially you're just looting CO and doing a one-shot trip back to AZ. General Woodson is extremely unhappy about it (and also you have to kill his brother if you side with AD). This ending was extremely unsatisfying because:

1) You had no idea siding with AD mean there'd be insufficient rations for AZ
2) None of the positive relations you make with the CO factions assist in supplying AZ, which is the first thing I'd try to go. The epilogue just says you loot CO. Why not also ask Flab and Nancy for some sugar?
3) Why exactly does AD need Ironclad Cordite? Because he offers to take the gangs to Kansas? Was there a threat from the gangs I missed? Why are we inflicting IC on Kansas, because it's his 'destiny'? How did Angela and IC agree to this plan with IC in jail?



User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10173
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Drool »

Juris wrote: September 21st, 2020, 1:27 pm1) You had no idea siding with AD mean there'd be insufficient rations for AZ
Not sure what you expected. Angela is consigning Colorado to utter chaos. She doesn't seem to admit or realize it, but that's the only possible outcome. She doesn't want to rule, she wants to throw down the Patriarch and then sit back and see who steps up. She doesn't want to pick the successor, she just wants veto power if she doesn't like the strongman who steps up (and it will be a strongman in a post-apocalyptic power vacuum). The fact that there's anything to send back is pretty surprising, honestly.
None of the positive relations you make with the CO factions assist in supplying AZ, which is the first thing I'd try to go. The epilogue just says you loot CO. Why not also ask Flab and Nancy for some sugar?
There's a limit to what the factions can do. The Hundred Families and the Marshals certainly aren't going to help you. The Monster Army is a shadow of its former self. I mean, they couldn't even keep the Warrens secured. The help they'd be able to send is pretty limited. Remember, they seem to be essentially subsistence farming pigs. They have the bizarre, but those merchants are third party.

The Gippers might be able to help, except I don't know how much aid they could actually provide. Their sole resource is oil. Transferring oil from Denver to Colorado Springs is one thing (it's roughly 80 miles), sending it all the way down to Arizona is something else entirely. And while energy is always useful, I'm not sure oil is what Arizona needs.
3) Why exactly does AD need Ironclad Cordite? Because he offers to take the gangs to Kansas?
Pretty much.
Was there a threat from the gangs I missed? Why are we inflicting IC on Kansas, because it's his 'destiny'? How did Angela and IC agree to this plan with IC in jail?
Sort of. If I understand her plan right, Cordite will take the gangs out from under Liberty and take them to Kansas, eliminating them as a threat to Colorado (so clowns no longer attacking the Bizarre; no more Scar Collectors ambushing caravans; etc). Of course, she's dooming Kansas to bloody terror, but she doesn't seem to care about them.

Angela came up with the plan all by herself. Remember, Cordite's never even heard of her. He wants to go to Kansas because destiny, and Angela is perfectly willing to use him for that. She didn't need to work out her plan with him because he already wants to do it. It'd be like me working out a plan for my cat to eat a moth that got in the house; I don't really need to tell him the plan because he's gonna do it anyway.
Alwa nasci korliri das.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

As the last remaining original Desert Ranger, I really would have hoped for a better treatment of her character.

This conclusion for Angela is starting to bother me more and more. At least Vargas got to go out like a true hero.
User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10173
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Drool »

marceror wrote: September 21st, 2020, 5:02 pmAt least Vargas got to go out like a true hero.
...after being reduced to an utter incompetent who apparently forgot that Vegas, Needles, and Quartz existed while completely squandering all the gains made in the first game.
Alwa nasci korliri das.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Drool wrote: September 21st, 2020, 5:14 pm
marceror wrote: September 21st, 2020, 5:02 pmAt least Vargas got to go out like a true hero.
...after being reduced to an utter incompetent who apparently forgot that Vegas, Needles, and Quartz existed while completely squandering all the gains made in the first game.
Well, yeah. I guess there is that. I almost forgot about all of the discussions we had on these forums about the Rangers/Vargas' incompetence in WL2. He had a good start. Bad middle, and good end.

Angela had a good start, bad middle, and bad end.

Ace and Hell Razor? Good starts. No middles, and bad ends.
User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10173
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Drool »

marceror wrote: September 21st, 2020, 6:19 pmAce and Hell Razor? Good starts. No middles, and bad ends.
Eh. They died before they could be ruined. I'm okay with them.

I mean, I didn't really care about Ace one way or the other, and I kinda liked the idea of Hell Razor giving the bureaucracy a middle finger and going out on his own. I'm also okay with what they did with Thrasher.
Alwa nasci korliri das.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Drool wrote: September 22nd, 2020, 1:26 pm
marceror wrote: September 21st, 2020, 6:19 pmAce and Hell Razor? Good starts. No middles, and bad ends.
Eh. They died before they could be ruined. I'm okay with them.

I mean, I didn't really care about Ace one way or the other, and I kinda liked the idea of Hell Razor giving the bureaucracy a middle finger and going out on his own. I'm also okay with what they did with Thrasher.
LOL, that's a pretty low standard. Just kill 'em off before inXile can ruin 'em. But okay. I'm not a huge fan of how they killed off Ace and Hell Razor. I guess Ace at least provided a story arc for Angela. Hell Razor, I would have preferred that he was still a ranger, but working fairly independently and he managed to stay alive. It just bothers me that the people with the most experience fightin synths were being taken out so quickly, without much to suggest their heroism, skill, and prowess at not getting themselves killed. I don't think killing them off is the only way to keep them distant from the story. Just my preference.

Yeah, Thrasher was actually handled pretty well.
User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Grohal »

Drool wrote: September 20th, 2020, 4:55 pm Crazy thing is, she started with a 15 IQ. She was the smart one!
Most serial killers are smart too. :twisted:


Maybe our ancestors were up to something, burning red-haired women about 500 years ago. :mrgreen:

But on a more serious tone: Only explanation for Angela Deths behavior would be PTS, or something like that. She was heavily wounded in California, maybe her mind/soul had it even worse...

And maybe the quote in the intro "every monster was a human first" was - at least also - about her.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.
User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10173
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Drool »

Grohal wrote: September 23rd, 2020, 10:29 pmAnd maybe the quote in the intro "every monster was a human first" was - at least also - about her.
Ooo, good point. Sneaky.

It's not about the struggle of the Rangers, but the Fall of Angela Deth.
Alwa nasci korliri das.
User avatar
marceror
Adventurer
Posts: 989
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 8:40 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by marceror »

Pretty sure that was AD narrating that intro too, so yeah.

inXile went to a dark place writing her for this game.
Solid
Initiate
Posts: 8
Joined: June 28th, 2014, 1:59 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Solid »

Agreed. Her behavior really doesn't make a lot of sense and requires her to be psychic about Ironclad Cordite (who I freed but did not recruit). If she thinks we can beat the Marshalls and the Patriarch's power armored army then why doesn't she think we can beat Liberty's gang of goons after we've slaughtered the clowns, scar collectors, and kite lunatics everywhere else?

I had avoided endgame spoilers so it was a surprise to get the "November Reigns" ending that I did, talk the Marshalls into standing aside during the endgame fight, exile the Patriarch, and choose to send supplies to AZ with the Rangers protecting CO too... somehow this qualifies as an "orderly transfer of power." You can't help but notice that getting to this seemingly good outcome is completely accidental from her stupid plan built on divine intervention. At the decision point after capturing liberty I had to sort of sit there and ponder for a moment whether the Patriarch was really all that terrible a leader in context (IE am I just replacing him with an equally volatile unelected leader in the form of plans-built-on-nothing Angela Deth?), and what made me side with Angela was actually that the Patriarch seemed hell bent on dying with no succession plan, and I had captured all of his kids alive, which I figured was a recipe for disaster for CO too.

It feels like her part of driving the story got written and then there just wasn't time to adjust it to make more sense. Ironclad Cordite and even Team November are straight up deus ex machina in her universe.
Last edited by Solid on October 11th, 2020, 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FYKC
Novice
Posts: 36
Joined: December 7th, 2012, 2:02 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by FYKC »

I posted this in another thread but it fits here too.

My take on Angela is that she is probably suffering from extreme PTSD now. At least that's how I rationalise her actions in Wasteland 3.

She loses Ghost (from the short stories included in WL2 deluxe), then loses Ace, then finds out Hell Razor is dead, goes to LA and gets shot down, survives and has no radio contact with Ranger HQ, gets captured and enslaved by robots, and by the time she gets back to Arizona she finds out her remaining two friends Snake and Thrasher are dead. It's not really surprising that she's not thinking clearly.

On top of all of that, as she says in the beginning of WL3, she lost Team Echo. In WL2, you meet her right off the bat, at her comrade's funeral, and she becomes your "mom" of a sort and even remarks about you being kids. She stays with you a good chunk of time and looks after you until she goes on her mission to Cali. Her getting shot down in Cali leads to the last of her friends as well as her "kids" dying.

I thought the game captured her PTSD although I wish there had been even more conversation options. Not everyone's cuppa but I would have liked even more places where we could have tried to talk her down and more conversation dealing with her obvious trauma. Ever since Spec Ops: The Line, I've been wanting a game to touch more on the psychological issues that can come about from being that big goddamn hero. How your character dealt with Angela, who was a version of yourself once upon a time, could add some nice depth. It's still all there... I just wish for more meat on the bones.
Just reminds me of that old grave epithet:
"Fui quod es, eris quod sum" - “I was what you are, you will be what I am”
NeonBlade
Initiate
Posts: 13
Joined: November 19th, 2015, 2:42 pm

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by NeonBlade »

I'm still scouring the game, and all the conversation points that somehow shows that Angela is a Synth, replaced by the Cochise before it went offline. It's the only thing that makes sense. She is absolutely insane with this scheme.
User avatar
Juris
Scholar
Posts: 127
Joined: November 25th, 2014, 9:41 am

Re: AD is a hotheaded moron

Post by Juris »

I like this take. There's definitely in-game hints about it (her facial scars from the helicopter crash in W2). However, PTSD doesn't make you dumb. Working with IronClad Cordite makes no sense for her character at all, especially when you can just wipe out the gangs at Yuma instead of have IC take them over and send a horde of slaver-rapists to Kansas. The scar collectors are bad news. Ironically, Angela says tell IC not to bring his gang to Colorado Springs because we don't want a bunch of rapists in the city. Okay Angie.

Oh, and her rebellion kills half the Rangers at HQ including Woodson's brother Rook and La Loca if you join her - so pretty much everyone you rescued in Aspen except Pizepi.

It just seems like the GoT finale - rushed. As stated in another thread Angie goes full Daenerys.
FYKC wrote: September 27th, 2020, 8:12 am I posted this in another thread but it fits here too.

My take on Angela is that she is probably suffering from extreme PTSD now. At least that's how I rationalise her actions in Wasteland 3.

Post Reply

Return to “Wasteland 3: Story & Quests”