I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 22nd, 2019, 5:49 pm

svdp wrote:
February 22nd, 2019, 8:27 am
The problem with this argument is that it's simply impossible to fulfill. If you have 12 people who played the old games, you'll have 13 opinions of how the sequel "should have" been made, and thus, whatever anyone makes, as a new game - and we're 20 years further by now - it would never please everyone,
Pleasing everyone may be impossible, but pleasing a majority of the backers, who were enticed to back based on claims that it was going to be a sequel, was within the realm of possibility. If you had been around the past three or so years and read through the forum discussions here, you would come to realize that there was a general consensus among most fans who took the time to raise their voices. Was that a 100% consensus with no deviation? Of course not. But most of us, who took the time attempting to engage with inXile, had a pretty good agreement on the basics and quite a few of the specifics of what would constitute a legitimate sequel.

This isn't about pleasing everyone - it is about making a faithful sequel that lots of backers can accept as such. If you look at the ratings of the BT remasters versus the Barrows Deep game, you will see what consensus about fidelity to the series looks like. Not the 12 people with 13 opinions chaos that you're attempting to portray.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by svdp » February 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm

Well... I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I stay with my point that the task of a game should be that it gives enjoyment when playing. For me, that's the *primary* task, not a secondary task. If I understand you correctly, you would claim a new BT game were a GOOD "BT game" if it fits in your conception of how it would be appropriate as a sequel, EVEN if it were a dull game that brings no enjoyment. I find that a strange reasoning and can't follow you there.

And also, as said: everyone has his own idea what a 'fitting sequel' would be. There is little doubt that, whatever Inxile made, you would have the same kind of whining going on, only with different actors, each complaining of their own on how it's not a real sequel. For me, this was fitting enough as a sequel, for you, apparently not. And since it's entirely subjective what a 'real' sequel should be, each individual will have his own opinion of it.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by svdp » February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm

"Pleasing everyone may be impossible, but pleasing a majority of the backers, who were enticed to back based on claims that it was going to be a sequel, was within the realm of possibility."

Point of note: there was a lot of complaining about the crashes and other bugs, the inventory, the graphical outdated looking NPC's, etc. There was certainly not a majority complaining about it being "not a real sequel". So I'm rather wondering: no doubt there were some, but can you back up with statistical evidence that a majority of the players were dissatisfied, for that particular reason? A cursory look at the comments on steam indicate otherwise.

Secondly, about the enticement: I'm a backer too. An 'Early Wurm' even. I made the backing and looked at what they said and showed, and even in the first demo-vid about the game, the basic principles of how it would work were already shown. So I really don't get the "we got something else than what we thought we would"... that just means you didn't look at what was actually said and shown, and *interpreted* the term "sequel" with something of your own mind. And that's exactly what I said before. I never had any major disappointment, because I kept my expectations grounded in what was actually said and shown, not on what I imagined it would be.


"This isn't about pleasing everyone - it is about making a faithful sequel that lots of backers can accept as such."

See above. And backers aren't the only players to start with. And also: how do you prove that, if Exile had made another game, not exactly as many - or maybe even more - would have complained about it, then?

That's just the point I was making. What is a "faithful sequel" means something else to each individual. I'm quite sure YOU have a vision in your mind of what it entails - but so do others. It's far from certain, and highly speculative, to claim that your particular idea of it would suddenly have swayed the majority of players that it now was, indeed, a faithful sequel. I know I can't make you see that, because you're convinced of it, but the slightly more objective reality is, you have no idea whether what you would consider a faithful sequel would be considered better or worse by others in that regard. You just *assume* it would.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Woolfe » February 23rd, 2019, 4:36 pm

So I haven't played any of the originals or the new game, and I disagree with you.

If someone tells you they are making a product and it will be X, and you give them money for X, but you actually receive x or Y, then that is a failure no matter how good x or Y is.

This game was pitched as a Bard's Tale Game. So that meant that there was an expectation that it would follow certain theming and styles that would resonate with the original games. This doesn't mean it is an exact copy of the games, but it means that the lore etc would fit, and that the gameplay would be evocative of the original. They stated during the kickstarter that the combat would be very different.

InExile finished the game, and a large portion of backers don't feel like it is a BT game. That is a failure for the Kickstarter. These people PAID up front for a game that they did not receive. That is a failure of the devs to meet the expectations.

What this means is that a lot of people, like myself, will simply not be backing any more InExile games. (I have backed all their games except WL3 thus far.) Now being that BT4 doesn't appear to have done well commercially, that is a big issue.

Hence the sale to Microsoft.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 23rd, 2019, 5:35 pm

svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm
Well... I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I stay with my point that the task of a game should be that it gives enjoyment when playing. For me, that's the *primary* task, not a secondary task. If I understand you correctly, you would claim a new BT game were a GOOD "BT game" if it fits in your conception of how it would be appropriate as a sequel, EVEN if it were a dull game that brings no enjoyment. I find that a strange reasoning and can't follow you there.
It's not about primary or secondary tasks. It's about meeting requirements and doing what you said you were going to do. inXile did not make a Bard's Tale sequel in any reasonable sense of the word "sequel". I never said anything about accepting a dull game. If it was a faithful sequel, I highly doubt it would be dull - almost by definition, it would not be dull. But, if it somehow was, then, no, I would not accept it as a good game. I'm not sure where you got that idea; feels like words are being put into my mouth.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm
And also, as said: everyone has his own idea what a 'fitting sequel' would be.
Also, as said, there was a general consensus among fans about what a fitting sequel would be.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:14 pm
And since it's entirely subjective what a 'real' sequel should be, each individual will have his own opinion of it.
Why, then, do you care enough about other people's opinions to call them whining, if you're accepting of the fact that people are going to have differing opinions. Why bother to say anything at all?
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 23rd, 2019, 5:54 pm

svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
Point of note: there was a lot of complaining about the crashes and other bugs, the inventory, the graphical outdated looking NPC's, etc.
Indeed there was, because the game had a myriad of technical issues in addition to not being the sequel it was claimed to be.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
There was certainly not a majority complaining about it being "not a real sequel".
Can you back up your certainty with a statistical breakdown of what was most complained about? I read the Steam reviews over the first couple weeks after release and there were plenty of comments about the game not being a faithful sequel. I don't know what the statistical breakdown is. If Steam has an API for accessing these comments, it might be a fun exercise for someone interested in NLP and sentiment analysis to grind the comments and produce a frequency table and maybe a word cloud.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
So I'm rather wondering: no doubt there were some, but can you back up with statistical evidence that a majority of the players were dissatisfied, for that particular reason?
I made no claims about a majority of people being dissatisfied for any particular reason. But, there were plenty of people in this forum and leaving reviews on Steam who do not think the Barrows Deep game is a Bard's Tale sequel.

What I did say is that a remaster of the original games is hovering around 95% approval among reviewers on Steam. By contrast, the Barrows Deep game is hovering the high 50% range. It is true that the remaster has been technically solid in addition to being faithful and that Krome has been extremely responsive to the few complaints which have come their way, but, in being faithful, the game is not presenting a so-called "modern" gaming experience. Yet, in spite of that, it has few detractors.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
So I really don't get the "we got something else than what we thought we would"... that just means you didn't look at what was actually said and shown, and *interpreted* the term "sequel" with something of your own mind.
I also looked at all the material before backing the game near the start of the project. They showed a fancy graphical demo or two to showcase the graphics engine they were going to be using. They also wrote, on multiple occasions, that they were going to be making a Bard's Tale sequel.

It is possible you didn't notice or care about their claims to be making a sequel and so you got something you are satisfied with. Most of us, who actually paid attention to the claims about making a sequel, are disappointed that inXile did not deliver one.
svdp wrote:
February 23rd, 2019, 2:29 pm
See above. And backers aren't the only players to start with.
No, but they are the ones who _backed_ it with their own money based on certain representations and enticements that inXile made. To falsely advertise a project for the purpose of taking other people's money is going to generate animosity. People don't like being lied to and screwed over.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by BlakeStone » February 24th, 2019, 9:27 am

Staehrminator, add me to your count of people who love this game.

I'm a backer and I just finished the game yesterday.
It was a sequel and it was a good sequel.
I played without auto mapping and used graph paper along with grid movement. I loved it.
It really took me back to 1985 when I played the first Bard's Tale on a 8088 processor.
The story line was a true sequel and the music was awesome with all the ear worm magic, great job to all involved at inXile.

Not sure why there's so much anger from other backers. A good argument for a forum ignore button.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by thebruce » February 26th, 2019, 10:02 am

There are people who love the game, and there are people who don't. Either side ridiculing the other side is not a redeeming quality. "Whining" is a loaded word in this context. When a post begins with hot button terms that are bound to offend, then yes, the discussion will focus around that and turn into debates and arguments.

Again, opinions are scattered across the board on many aspects of this game.

Showing that the remastered has a higher approval rating than BT4 is certainly an interesting objective fact. Also of note, the audience for the remastered was known and expected to be smaller. BT4 wanted to reach a wider audience, thus support would be MUCH more varied. BT:R was focused to a more niche crowd, thus support would be much greater - but less successful in the size of said crowd. So arguments can be made, once again, about what "successful" means - Demographic size? Approval rating? Raw sales profit?

This debate about "is it Bard's Tale" will never end, because it's one definition of success vs another. Do not denigrate someone else for enjoying, or for disliking, what you otherwise dislike, or enjoy. The only objective outcome is what will come of Bard's Tale NOW that BT4 and BT:Remastered are complete and released. That will be the telling factor.

We know there are "I love the classics and I love/hate BT4" opinions, as well as "I never played the classics and I love/hate BT4" opinions. The only thing that comes from debates on this matter are pretty much all "no true scotsman" arguments.

THAT is why a thread that begins "I loved it and anyone who didn't are entitled whiners" will devolve into this type of discussion. If you want to talk about it positively, then ask for positive discussion, rather than imply that anyone who disagrees is somehow lesser. In this forum there have been discussions like that (though rare) - respectable, productive, beneficial to all.

All that said, thank you everyone for not breaking out direct personal insults. Passive aggressive comments are ... pushing it though =P
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Gizmo » February 26th, 2019, 11:22 am

thebruce wrote:
February 26th, 2019, 10:02 am
This debate about "is it Bard's Tale" will never end, because it's one definition of success vs another. Do not denigrate someone else for enjoying, or for disliking, what you otherwise dislike, or enjoy.
Indeed it is; and none should.

But it also the case that two or more people can enjoy two flavors of ice cream, and one person never convince the other that they are each the same flavor (or that their view of this is valid). Chocolate is chocolate, and strawberry is strawberry... and chocolate is not strawberry—no matter how much the person loves it or wants it to be. ;) They are both ice cream, and BT4 & BTR are both video games... but that's as close as it gets; to claim more than that is overly polite & diplomatic.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by thebruce » February 26th, 2019, 11:31 am

Sure, which is why good respectable intelligent discussion is beneficial to all. I didn't say it's bad because it'll never end so don't do it :P
Just avoid terms, phrases, labels that are known to pit one person higher morally or ethically than another, if only because that is what any discussion that does so will end up focusing on.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by svdp » February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm

"To falsely advertise a project for the purpose of taking other people's money is going to generate animosity. People don't like being lied to and screwed over."

Which, again, is caused because of your own interpretation of it. I'm one of the earliest backers there were for the game, and I played the old BT's too, and yet I don't feel any of the sense of being "lied" to, or "screwed over". I've been trying to say this for a while now, but the disappointment people feel is due to THEIR expectations, not because the game was bad or 'not a real sequel' on itself.

That's not to say the disappointment isn't real for you guys, it's just you're too biased to give merit to the game on its own, as it stands. And I repeat one more time: there is no objective measure of what a "real sequel" is. That's just something in your head. It would differ for anyone. You assume the version in your head would have received better praise, but that's simple speculation, and easy to boot, because you don't have to make it. And even if you succeeded - what would you say to people who still complain it with *exactly* the same arguments as you do? That it's not a "real sequel".

It's really not a good argument to make.

"They showed a fancy graphical demo or two to showcase the graphics engine they were going to be using. They also wrote, on multiple occasions, that they were going to be making a Bard's Tale sequel.

It is possible you didn't notice or care about their claims to be making a sequel and so you got something you are satisfied with. Most of us, who actually paid attention to the claims about making a sequel, are disappointed that inXile did not deliver one."

Again, you're confounding some things. They DID make a sequel, only one you didn't like, or feel is a "real sequel". Those two things are different: one is breaking a promise, the other is not satisfying your personal expectations of what a sequel should be. You're conflating the two. So, indeed, they showcased what it would be, both a bit in worldbuilding and lore, as well as the first person movement and the combat mode. So if you actually LOOKED at it - without nostalgic goggles and biased expectations, you *would* have gotten a clear idea what you would get. Which was, indeed, a sequel, but not one as you imagined it.


" Either side ridiculing the other side is not a redeeming quality. "Whining" is a loaded word in this context."

Well, I guess that's true, but I didn't say ALL were whining. It's just that some, definitely are whining - because they whine. There's little use in mincing words when one points out the obvious. Beating around the bush ain't my style. Of course, sometimes, people think I'm addressing them personally, but in all honesty, the major people discussing here are fairly reasonable in their debate, even though they're missing the point (no doubt they think the same in reverse). But I wouldn't call all of the past comments whining on itself.

I agree with you though, that when emotions (and words used) get higher and harsher, things tend to get out of control, and a civilized debate quickly degrades.

So maybe it's better to let it rest, indeed. As you said: it will never end. There is no way I'm going to convince someone of the worth of the game, even as a sequel, who feels utterly disappointing in it. I'm just saying the cause of it, lays in their own expectations, not in so-called 'lying and screwing over" of Inxile. That's just projection of ones' own feelings. Inxile, by and large, delivered on their promises, even though it's clear the launch wasn't perfect. It's just some thought those promises entailed something else what was delivered. As an objective argument, this caries little weight, however, since the very same argument is always going to be used by those not satisfied with what was delivered, even if it was the perfect representation of one or another backer or player - like of some here in the forum - expected sequel. Then yet another one could claim the exact same and complain about it not being a "real sequel".

Certainly, this simple fact must be obvious?
Last edited by svdp on February 28th, 2019, 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2019, 3:50 pm

svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
I agree with you though, that when emotions (and words used) get higher and harsher, things tend to get out of control, and a civilized debate quickly degrades.

So maybe it's better to let it rest, indeed.
This would have been better as the first line in your post; as opposed to the last, after a series of assertions.

...but the disappointment people feel is due to THEIR expectations, not because the game was bad or 'not a real sequel' on itself.
Who is concerned with whether the game is bad or not? (How does that matter, or apply to this?)

It isn't about anyone's expectation of the game—indeed, I think most would have loved a pleasant surprise. But it is about discarding all but a few nouns and proper names from the BT IP. That's as bad as Bethesda did to Fallout—that's the same thing that Bethesda did to Fallout. Image

They could have made [almost ] any game in any style they liked, so long as it generally fit the bill aesthetically and mechanically. Top down, FPP, isometric, phased based, turn based, RTWP—not my preference, but it could be made to serve. Even full realtime, or graphic novel JRPG style with menus. [Not kidding, though it's tough to imagine those last two options used successfully.]

However... no matter what the design, it should hit most of the bullet points from the originals.

[Just a few of which I'll list here:]
  • Detailed animated portraits
  • Support for eight party members
  • Support for multi-class mages
  • Support for attacking multiple groups of enemies, both up close and at range
  • Inter-party fighting; (due to betrayal, imposters, and mind controlled PCs)
  • A large and varied spellbook; (the originals had from between 78-111 spells)
  • A heavy reliance upon the Bard class—but not as a requirement.
  • Towns; with visitable temples and commercial businesses (including taverns—and the practical need to buy a drink).
  • Adventure's Guild; (for new characters)
  • Review Board; (for leveling up and class alteration)
  • exploring trapped labyrinthine dungeons
  • Realtime random encounters in town, and in the dungeons
Ideally the game should have included some familiar aspects to the UI—at least in function, if not decoration. No matter what they made, as an official numbered sequel it should have seemed like an extended/ evolution of the series—not an utter mutation of it into another game entirely.

Image
It is possible you didn't notice or care about their claims to be making a sequel and so you got something you are satisfied with. Most of us, who actually paid attention to the claims about making a sequel, are disappointed that inXile did not deliver one."
Again, you're confounding some things. They DID make a sequel, only one you didn't like, or feel is a "real sequel". Those two things are different: one is breaking a promise, the other is not satisfying your personal expectations of what a sequel should be. You're conflating the two. So, indeed, they showcased what it would be, both a bit in worldbuilding and lore, as well as the first person movement and the combat mode.
You seem to think that putting a number in the title makes it a sequel. As if Elderscrolls 6 could be a Pillars of Eternity clone with the name "Elderscrolls 6" tacked on it.

That's what we got here... a Frayed Knights clone with the name Bard's Tale 4 tacked on it.
(Complete with the same loot bag that pops out of the air, at the end of combat.)
Image

My own preference would have been very similar to Grimrock in form and function, but with Bard's Tale mechanics.

Barring that I would have even been okay with this:
ImageImage

As it stands, BT:Remastered is about the best and closest thing we will see of a Bard's Tale sequel, and I wouldn't even mind [IE would pay for] the BT4 campaign implemented in the BTR Unity/engine. That would be less than I'd hoped for, but preferable to BT4 as it is; because it's the wrong game for the name.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » February 27th, 2019, 4:37 pm

svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
I'm being trying to say this for a while now, but the disappointment people feel is due to THEIR expectations, not because the game was bad or 'not a real sequel' on itself.
No, the game is not a real sequel and, yes, people expected a real sequel. Hence the disappointment. As I've stated multiple times, there was a general consensus on this board about what would constitute a real sequel and what was delivered did not meet those criteria. Adding a "IV" to the title and dropping a few names from the original series does not a sequel make.
svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
it's just you're to biased to give merit to the game on its own, as it stands.
First, you call people whiners and then tell people that they're too biased. I suppose you consider yourself to be some paragon of objectivity to be making these statements of others to others. If you read through the forum, you'll actually find that a number of people did attempt to evaluate it, ignoring the fact that it isn't a sequel. I distinctly remember Zin assigning two grades, for example: a "C" for being an RPG and solid "F" as a sequel. Likewise, I have tried the Barrows Deep game and I have plenty of complaints with it that don't have to do with it being a sequel. But, one of my major complaints is that it isn't the promised sequel. A number of the people you are calling whiners did evaluate the game without reference to it being a sequel and found it quite lacking. Technical issues on release are legitimate issues to form a negative impression around.
svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
And I repeat one more time: there is no objective measure of what a "real sequel" is.
People seemed to have figured out what a real remaster is. Look at the 95% rating of the remasters. If people can figure out what a real remaster is, then they can figure out what a real sequel is. It is a consensus measure based on a common set of criteria. No one is arguing objectivity here. But, if you advertise a product as a sequel and almost no one think it actually is a sequel and can tell you why they don't think so, then it isn't a sequel, pretty much by definition.
svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
They DID make a sequel, only one you didn't like, or feel is a "real sequel"
What's your definition of a sequel?
svdp wrote:
February 27th, 2019, 1:50 pm
. Those two things are different: one is breaking a promise, the other is not satisfying your personal expectations of what a sequel should be.
A lot more people than just me had expectations that it would be a sequel because it was advertised as a sequel. As has been repeatedly mentioned, there was a general consensus on what would constitute a sequel in this series - a general consensus is not just someone's personal expectations. But don't take my word for it - feel free to read through the various discussions in this forum over the past 3.5 years.

That a sequel was not delivered is a broken promise.
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2019, 5:12 pm

See... AFAIK, _noblesse_oblige_ has me on ignore...for reasons long forgotten [to me]. We agree a lot (just never in direct replies); I get my points repeated. :mrgreen:

*Though this might have changed or never been, and possibly my post was just skipped over. Matters not, If there were post likes or up-voting here, I would have done it to the above.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Lanatir » February 27th, 2019, 11:56 pm

It is easy to tell if the majority of the backers think that this game is a proper sequel or not. 33.741 have backed it on Kickstarter, it is safe to assume that most of them actually did back it because they expected a proper sequel. This much we all can probably agree on.
Let this number sink in. 33.741.
Of these people the amount of people who are currently still playing this game is, on average on any given day: 50.
This number can also be backed, by looking at the steam charts. Actually, the same amount of people are currently playing the remasters.
So, 5 months after release, of more than 30k people, 50 still play this game. So, this leaves 2 options. Either, the game is absolutely terrible, or it is not a real sequel. And since most reviewers even agree on the fact that it isnt that terrible....

I leave the rest to your conclusion.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by thebruce » February 28th, 2019, 6:56 am

And despite opinions on whether the game "is terrible" or not - it is perfectly fine and reasonable to still enjoy it OR not enjoy it.
If you can enjoy it, all power to you! If you can't enjoy it, then well, just don't play it. Simple, really. Why willingly and needlessly do something you don't enjoy?

Try not to identify with the game so much that it defines you, and you feel personally offended if someone likes/dislikes what you dislike/like.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Gizmo » February 28th, 2019, 10:39 am

There is a psychological phenomenon called Reaction Formation—in this case it might not directly apply, but it bears similarity to when a person is deeply invested in something to the point that they must believe in it regardless; believe in its worth, and [positive] appropriateness—lest they secretly feel foolish/ or cheated for having supported it.

I would say that on the surface, this could apply to proponents of either side of any debate if each person has a doubt, and that slight [tell-tale] manic edge to their position; of arguing for or against. But in my experience thus far [in this debate], the proponents against tend to illustrate with concrete examples of what & why, where the [BT4] advocates tend not to, often ignore those examples, and offer platitudes (in honest earnesty), that they either support (or do not) with assertions about the subjectivity of it all, generally that it's perfectly appropriate... that they like it just fine, but that you don't [with an implied: "grow up"]. That's not fair or fun.

At least dispute or refute; offhand/chiding dismissal is insult.

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by thebruce » February 28th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Not that I'm disagreeing, but....
...they can feel just the same when they love a game (whether or not recognizing its faults), and when someone says "but it's objectively bad" that's just as insulting as being told to "grow up" because you don't like something the other person does.

Point being, we can point out flaws and problems (in most cases they are objective, if we filter out the "I don't like..." points). But we have to realize that when we call something "good" or "bad" it has to be within a context. It's can absolutely be "a good game" to one person and "a bad game" to another person.
Frame it in sales - an external standard - and you have a shared context from which to objectively determine success. Frame it in technical bugs. Frame it in statistical ratings. Frame it in quantity of daily activity. Even if all of that implies sub-par success, it can still be "a good game" depending on who you ask.

Context is important. So my point is that if you feel personally inflamed when someone disagrees with you about something you like/dislike, you might need to take a step back for a bit. Come back to the conversation when you can look at things in the proper discussion context, and understand that not everyone will like/dislike the same things, and it's okay to like something that's bad in a different context, or not like something that's good in a different context.

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Gizmo
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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by Gizmo » February 28th, 2019, 1:31 pm

thebruce wrote:
February 28th, 2019, 12:13 pm
Not that I'm disagreeing, but....
...they can feel just the same when they love a game (whether or not recognizing its faults), and when someone says "but it's objectively bad" that's just as insulting as being told to "grow up" because you don't like something the other person does.
This is good—but additionally apt in an (I think) unintentional way. For you almost certainly mean "because you don't like something the other person [likes]", when it is often actually not liking something the other person is doing. :D
Point being, we can point out flaws and problems (in most cases they are objective, if we filter out the "I don't like..." points). But we have to realize that when we call something "good" or "bad" it has to be within a context. It's can absolutely be "a good game" to one person and "a bad game" to another person.
Worse... It can be a good game to both, yet resented by one of them, for reasons unfathomable (or un-respectable) to the other.
Context is important.
Perception of context is becoming a lost art—especially so...if it seems like it might aid the opposing argument. :(
(That's in general, I mean.)

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Re: I'm one of the 2 people who genuinely love this game

Post by svdp » February 28th, 2019, 3:25 pm

"This would have been better as the first line in your post; as opposed to the last, after a series of assertions."

No, you have to end in beauty. ;-)

Look, in any discussion you'll have a tension, certainly when opposing views are concerned. I don't think there is any need to not openly say what one thinks: being honest and speaking frankly is the best thing there is - as long as one remains civil. So I think what I think and I say what I think, and actually, I've been holding back (in tone) on some points, even, out of courtesy.


"It is easy to tell if the majority of the backers think that this game is a proper sequel or not. 33.741 have backed it on Kickstarter, it is safe to assume that most of them actually did back it because they expected a proper sequel. This much we all can probably agree on.
Let this number sink in. 33.741.
Of these people the amount of people who are currently still playing this game is, on average on any given day: 50.
This number can also be backed, by looking at the steam charts. Actually, the same amount of people are currently playing the remasters.
So, 5 months after release, of more than 30k people, 50 still play this game. So, this leaves 2 options. Either, the game is absolutely terrible, or it is not a real sequel. And since most reviewers even agree on the fact that it isn't that terrible...."

Whoa, there, my friend. I appreciate the attempt at giving some rationale for it, but you're starting from some basic assumptions and misconceptions, there. First of all, you start with the premise: that it is not a 'proper sequel'. But that's exactly the thing we're trying to ascertain, thus starting the argument that it IS that way, and then reasoning further from that stance is rather iffy. As I've said numerous times, it being a "correct sequel" is arbitrary, because everyone has his own opinion on what constitutes a 'real sequel'. It's always extremely difficult to please a crowd which has nostalgic goggles on and each have there own mind what a proper sequel should be. One can debate - after the facts - if ones' own imagined sequel would have convinced more or less people, but one is never sure of that, can we? And the point is, EXACTLY the same argument can be used by ANYONE, even if it were your personal perfectly done sequel. So the argument, on itself, makes no sense. One can use it anywhere, anytime - and thus it looses its argumental value, because one can always consider it 'true' or not.

But, I think you also noticed this, and this is why you argue from the point of 'most'. However, you start with 'backers' and then you compare it with players on steam: those are completely different things, however, and statistically it makes no sense you would mix them. Thirdly, you say 'safe to presume'.. but is it? I've checked out the first 200 comments on the backers' site - the group you identify as being the core audience, and there were...3 comments... that said directly it was bad "as a sequel". There were many other complaints, yes, but only 3 out of 200 that had that as major objection... Not really that convincing, if that was truly the major obstacle for 'the majority' of backers.

Fourthly, you make the mistake of equating the number of people playing it today, as proof - not only of people not liking it, but people not liking it *for that particular reason*. You offer no proof of this, however. You just assume it is, and then use it as some sort of corroboration of the premise you started with. However... is it truly that strange that an indie game, an RPG to boot - and thus no online playing - drops considerably after 5 months, when everybody has finished it? I don't think so. I see that even AAA games like skyrim dropped from 20 MILLION copies sold to a 22000 players a year later. So your numbers don't really show anything in regard to what you claim them to show. A drop of more than 95% isn't extra-ordinary, for an indie RPG after half a year. People just finish(ed) the game, and there is little replay value in an RPG compared to an online MM(A)RPG or FPS. If I compare bards' tale 4 with other, similar indie RPG's, like vaporum, we also see similar drop-rates. Your numbers, thus, are not indicative of it being proof it was no good, let alone it wasn't good because of "not being a real sequel", but just the fact that most games of similar origin and scope and genre, are ALL rapidly declining in players, once the game is finished.

"the proponents against tend to illustrate with concrete examples of what & why, where the [BT4] advocates tend not to, often ignore those examples"

I would rather claim the reverse. There are scant examples of objective arguments to claim it's not a good game (or even a "sequel'), and those few provided, have some serious flaws in it, as attributed above. Now, purely on the subjective side, there is no resolution possible, ever - because of the inherent quality of subjective feelings and appreciation. But that's exactly what I'm arguing. That it's not because the game is objectively 'bad', but because the *expectations* of it are different. But expectations are derived from ones' own mind. So the problem lays not in the game itself, but in ones' own mind and the expectations one had. It's not that difficult to see.

The truth is: this IS the sequel, and this IS not a bad game. It's only not the sequel some people wanted, nor is it deemed a good game by some with low tolerance and "other" expectations.
Last edited by svdp on February 28th, 2019, 5:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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