Bards Tale 3 Beta

For all discussion on all the previous The Bard's Tale games: the classic 1980's games (The Bard's Tale II: Destiny Knight, & III: Thief of Fate) & the humorous The Bard's Tale (2004) spin off.

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reedm60
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Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by reedm60 » December 29th, 2018, 6:21 pm

I am playing the Bards Tale 3 Beta and noticed something strange.

I am in Lucencia and have acquired the magic triangle. However, none of my characters is able to use it. I have a Paladin, Warrior, Monk, Archmage, Chronomancer, and a Rogue in my party. (Haven't tried a Bard.) This is keeping me from moving forward in the game.

Has anyone come across this? Anybody get past this?

Thanks!

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by TimN » December 30th, 2018, 1:19 am

I recall the Magic Triangle being a bard-only item.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Drool » December 30th, 2018, 2:56 pm

Bard only, yes, just like Cyannis says.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Gizmo » December 30th, 2018, 8:43 pm

It's an instrument after all...

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by ybkara » January 2nd, 2019, 7:15 pm

Is it a good idea to have the Scarlet bard teach Kiel's Overture right at the start of BT3? It currently does in 3.05 beta.. not a big deal if you import into BT3 from BT2, I guess.. but for a new party, it's gamebreaking.

Gives your bard trebuchet, after all - hits all monsters for 150-600 - which allows you to walk over the starter dungeons for 10K in gold, and a few canteens until you get a bardsword -at which point it's every round for free. Certainly speeds things up, of course, but it seems like an oversight that it's allowed, when the originals didn't..

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Drool » January 3rd, 2019, 4:02 pm

Oh, hm, no, it really shouldn't do that.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 3rd, 2019, 8:16 pm

Because of the huge stat cap difference between BT2 & BT3, taking the 'Overpowered' import option actually results in an underpowered party

I completed BT1&2 without a Rogue, so I needed to create a new L1 rogue to add to my imported party. Once I killed Brilhasti and used the XP boost to level the Rogue to L35, he ended up with 27 dex, 25 con, 25 luck etc, while my 'overpowered' L51 party members are still all stuck at 20/20/20/20/20 and, frankly, suck. They miss every attack unless I use seekers ballads and usually act after monsters in battles, while my Rogue acts first, reliably hits, has better AC, a huge HP pool thanks to all the extra con, etc, etc.

Honestly if you want an 'Overpowered' party you should take the import option, strip all the items and put them on new characters. Once you kill Brilhasti those new characters will be much more powerful than the imported ones.

How to fix? I suggest that the import feature should add 1 stat point for each level over 25. So my L51 party would be at 25s instead of 20s

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by redwinclass » January 3rd, 2019, 8:20 pm

You mean that caps on stats are imported over as well? That's a bug?

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 4th, 2019, 2:12 am

No. Killing Brilhasti grants enough XP to level to 35, which my imported chars got nothing from, so they havn't levelled yet - but my new BT3 character levelled to 35 with stats over 20 is out-performing my imported L51 chars who havn't levelled

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Drool » January 4th, 2019, 4:21 pm

It should smooth out pretty quickly. Brilhasti's only 25k or so XP in and of himself. You'll very quickly get more than that from random encounters. Also, I find it a little surprising that you're unable to hit anything in Arboria with characters having all 20s for their stats.

You also must have spent ages rerolling your rogue to have so many 25s at level 35. I have testing saves with level 50+ characters without any 25s.

That said, your proposed fix seems mostly reasonable. I'm not sure why you've picked 25 as the cutoff though. I would say characters above 35, since they're the ones not getting any benefit from Brilhasti. That would give your level 51 characters +16 attribute points randomly assigned, so about +3 per.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 4th, 2019, 7:33 pm

Drool wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 4:21 pm
It should smooth out pretty quickly. Brilhasti's only 25k or so XP in and of himself. You'll very quickly get more than that from random encounters. Also, I find it a little surprising that you're unable to hit anything in Arboria with characters having all 20s for their stats.
I've since finished Arboria and Gelidia now and have just entered Lucencia. My imported chars have levelled from 51 to 57, mostly from the 600,000 xp granted on each world completed. As a result they are at 106 total stats (100 on import, +6 levels).

My Rogue is now level 44, and has Str 14, Int 20, Dex 30, Con 28, Luck 23 - for a total of 115 - 9 points higher despite being 13 levels lower - he's effectively 24 points ahead of my 'overpowered' characters on the stat curve. He also gets just as many HP per level as my 'warrior' classes thanks to his much higher Con
You also must have spent ages rerolling your rogue to have so many 25s at level 35. I have testing saves with level 50+ characters without any 25s.
I did get a very good roll. I also min/maxed his levelup to prioritise con and dex over other stats, only taking other stats when they were with a very good HP/skill roll.
That said, your proposed fix seems mostly reasonable. I'm not sure why you've picked 25 as the cutoff though. I would say characters above 35, since they're the ones not getting any benefit from Brilhasti. That would give your level 51 characters +16 attribute points randomly assigned, so about +3 per.
It was just a general 'feeling' regarding how far behind my 'overpowered' characters felt compared to my new one - now I've done the maths I find the difference is effectively 24, so I was about right. Changing it to level 30 would be OK.

The point is that these are supposed to be 'overpowered' characters that have been played all through BT1 and BT2 but as it stands right now it feels like a new L1 party would be stronger after the initial grind to Brilhasti.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Loswaith » January 5th, 2019, 3:42 am

I've found that warriors, paladins and rogues have a hard time hitting towards the end (the last 2 dungeons) of the Destiny Knight (Monks have a huge to hit bonus however), and enemies almost always go before everyone but the monk, who will occasionally go first. All this is despite being level 80+. NOt sure if its the same reason for BT3 issues though.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Drool » January 5th, 2019, 1:52 pm

Zadkiel wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 7:33 pm
I've since finished Arboria and Gelidia now and have just entered Lucencia. My imported chars have levelled from 51 to 57, mostly from the 600,000 xp granted on each world completed.
Almost exclusively, I'd say. Are you avoiding most of the random encounters? Your characters really should be able to hit base enemies just fine, only needing a Bard boost or a LUCK spell for bosses. What melee did you import? Any monk should be running just fine. By Gelidia, you should have gotten some gear that greatly helps the Hunter.
I did get a very good roll. I also min/maxed his levelup to prioritise con and dex over other stats, only taking other stats when they were with a very good HP/skill roll.
Yeah... kind of makes this an edge case.
The point is that these are supposed to be 'overpowered' characters that have been played all through BT1 and BT2 but as it stands right now it feels like a new L1 party would be stronger after the initial grind to Brilhasti.
Perhaps they would be had your Rogue not been so excessively min-maxed. Yes, he'd still have an attribute point lead, but without the save-scumming, he'd be sitting at roughly 23 per stat. Which would make him seem far less out of line with the rest of your party. I'm not saying it's not worth considering, but you partially painted yourself into that corner.

That aside, I don't even know if the goal or intent of the transfer was to bring in Gods Among Men, so much as "you don't have to grind for 20 hours at the start of the game". I mean, even a brand new party with the improved stats at level 35 will still be lunchmeat pretty quickly.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by rakenan » January 8th, 2019, 12:36 pm

I wouldn't have thought the stat cap difference between BT2 and BT3 would make much difference. I mean, you can easily reach level 100+ in BT2 without even grinding, just exploring all the dungeons. That should be enough HP and SP to remain comfortably ahead until fresh BT3 parties are stuck in the same 100k xp per level (or 200k or 400k or whatever it is) treadmill as the imported parties and the imported parties have leveled enough to cap their stats too. Sure, imported parties will be weaker than fresh parties of the same level, but they should still be substantially more potent than fresh parties that have the same amount of play time in BT3.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 9th, 2019, 3:52 am

Drool wrote:
January 5th, 2019, 1:52 pm
Zadkiel wrote:
January 4th, 2019, 7:33 pm
I've since finished Arboria and Gelidia now and have just entered Lucencia. My imported chars have levelled from 51 to 57, mostly from the 600,000 xp granted on each world completed.
Almost exclusively, I'd say. Are you avoiding most of the random encounters? Your characters really should be able to hit base enemies just fine, only needing a Bard boost or a LUCK spell for bosses. What melee did you import? Any monk should be running just fine. By Gelidia, you should have gotten some gear that greatly helps the Hunter.
Not avoiding most, but certainly picking and choosing and avoiding the annoying ones. At 300k per level and fights in Arboria and Gelidia averaging around 3-4k per fight - I got 4 levels from the quests, meaning I gained 600k+ from encounters or around 200 fights, so I'm not exactly avoiding fights, but I'm not grinding XP eaither.

The point is that these are supposed to be 'overpowered' characters that have been played all through BT1 and BT2 but as it stands right now it feels like a new L1 party would be stronger after the initial grind to Brilhasti.
Perhaps they would be had your Rogue not been so excessively min-maxed. Yes, he'd still have an attribute point lead, but without the save-scumming, he'd be sitting at roughly 23 per stat. Which would make him seem far less out of line with the rest of your party. I'm not saying it's not worth considering, but you partially painted yourself into that corner.

That aside, I don't even know if the goal or intent of the transfer was to bring in Gods Among Men, so much as "you don't have to grind for 20 hours at the start of the game". I mean, even a brand new party with the improved stats at level 35 will still be lunchmeat pretty quickly.
I dunno how to describe it, You really have to play with the imported characters to understand. The game is clearly balanced around your characters having 25+ in your primary stats after killing Brilhasti which is fine for those levelled up from 1-35, but the imported characters fall way short and it's really noticable. Spells fail to hit, melee fails to hit, everyone is slow.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 9th, 2019, 4:19 am

rakenan wrote:
January 8th, 2019, 12:36 pm
I wouldn't have thought the stat cap difference between BT2 and BT3 would make much difference. I mean, you can easily reach level 100+ in BT2 without even grinding, just exploring all the dungeons. That should be enough HP and SP to remain comfortably ahead until fresh BT3 parties are stuck in the same 100k xp per level (or 200k or 400k or whatever it is) treadmill as the imported parties and the imported parties have leveled enough to cap their stats too. Sure, imported parties will be weaker than fresh parties of the same level, but they should still be substantially more potent than fresh parties that have the same amount of play time in BT3.
It's not about HP or SP, my imported character have plenty of both (and were imported at level 51, having played all of BT1&BT2, fully exploring every dungeon - how on earth you ended up at level 100+ 'without even grinding' I have no idea), it's about all your spells being resisted, your melee being slow and missing 90% of the time and encounters being annoying and drawn out as a result. The game expects you to have high stats after levelling from 1-35 and monster AC & spell resist values are balanced around it and the imported characters just don't cut it.

It does get better as the game progresses. I'm in Malefia now and my imported casters are doing fine now thanks to the lower XP requirements meaning they finally caught up on stats and now land spells much more reliably, but my Paladin and Warrior/Geomancer are still unreliable and ineffective, and it's just as well the Bard just becomes a song bot because he can't do much else - It's just as well I made a new BT3 Rogue and he has much better stats than my other melee, given how much the game relies on him (4 boss fights total that only the rogue can hit the boss) - I think an imported Rogue would be making these boss fights much harder.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by rakenan » January 10th, 2019, 7:32 am

I don't run from fights. I fully explore every dungeon. I only discard loot if APAR protection makes it hard to return to where I am currently exploring after returning to town to sell. Only the third of these rules do I plan to discard in BT3.

I don't grind, which is to say I don't go to areas I've already explored looking to pick fights for loot and experience. But I get tons of loot and experience just fully exploring every dungeon. My party has gained 70 levels just getting halfway through Oscon's, on top of the 35 I had in BT1 (where I did grind a little mostly looking for Shield Rings). And at this point I'm sitting on tons of levels I could gain if I were willing to bother hitting up the review board.

Maybe BT3 just rewards far fewer experience points than BT2 does. I cannot imagine fully exploring BT2 dungeons without getting at least twice as many levels as you have. Or maybe the experience table keeps scaling past level 13, which it doesn't in BT1 and BT2.

The end point, however, is that imported parties should not be significantly behind fresh ones in stats, and vastly ahead in everything else. Especially non-casters. You only get 13 easy levels before you're on the slow leveling treadmill with the imported characters. That will let you get a single stat up to 30 if you scum your level ups. Meanwhile your imported characters can get that stat up to 21. The next 9 levels will let your imported characters catch up on that one stat, meanwhile they're way ahead in every other way.

Imported casters have it harder. Fresh casters will have way better stats because they gain way more levels before they have to get on the treadmill. But a Rogue in particular should totally favor imported characters unless inXile changed how skill points work. Over 1000 in all skills should crush a fresh Rogue. I can see accuracy being an issue, but imported gear can probably compensate.

That said, I'm not in the Beta, so I'll have to wait and see how things work out. But from what I know not being in the Beta, I can't see how fresh parties would have a real advantage. Not when the leveling curve flattens out so early in the game.
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Zadkiel » January 10th, 2019, 9:48 am

rakenan wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 7:32 am
That said, I'm not in the Beta, so I'll have to wait and see how things work out. But from what I know not being in the Beta, I can't see how fresh parties would have a real advantage. Not when the leveling curve flattens out so early in the game.
You keep on going on about levels - the levels are irrelevant which I tried to explain. The fact is that imported characters coming in with stats at 20 and gaining nothing from Brilhasti means they absolutely suck suck suck in Arboria and Gelidia. Melee miss 95% of the time, spells are resisted 80% of the time, every fight becomes a tedious cycle of miss miss miss resisted resisted resisted. I was playing on patch 3.05 where they had mistakenly made Kiel's Overture available from the start of the game instead of it being locked to one of the end-game realms and that fortunately made it bearable, but as of 3.07 they just fixed that 'bug', so now people playing with imported characters will have it even harder than I did. Monster spell resist and AC values in Arboria and Gelidia are clearly balanced around characters having been levelled from 1 to 35 and having mid-20s stats as a result, and characters imported with 20s are frustrating to play.

The point is that these are supposed to be 'overpowered' characters but they feel terrible to play for a large part of BT3 because of how behind on stats they are. You havn't played the game so I don't understand why you are trying to argue this point with me - I've played it, the imported characters suck and I'm done arguing it with you when you're just being argumentative for the sake of it and havn't actually experienced it.

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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by rakenan » January 10th, 2019, 10:26 am

Zadkiel wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 9:48 am
rakenan wrote:
January 10th, 2019, 7:32 am
That said, I'm not in the Beta, so I'll have to wait and see how things work out. But from what I know not being in the Beta, I can't see how fresh parties would have a real advantage. Not when the leveling curve flattens out so early in the game.
You keep on going on about levels - the levels are irrelevant which I tried to explain. And where the h**l are your charaThe fact is that imported characters coming in with stats at 20 and gaining nothing from Brilhasti means they absolutely suck suck suck in Arboria and Gelidia.
And where the h**l are your characters getting stats without levels? Levels are anything *BUT* irrelevant.

What is relevant, and which I had not known, is that imported characters get nothing from Brilhasti. As I said, I'm not in the Beta, so I can't test these things myself, and it was a small enough issue when I played BT3 decades ago that I had forgotten about it. And I can totally see how it's a major issue. Instead of the 13 fast and easy levels worth of stats new characters get, they get 35 fast and easy levels worth of stats. That's a much bigger advantage. It still won't matter in the long run since stats all cap at 30 for everybody and the game is really big. If you fight enough, imported characters will catch up. Which isn't going to make the first few dimensions feel any less awful.
Melee miss 95% of the time, spells are resisted 80% of the time, every fight becomes a tedious cycle of miss miss miss resisted resisted resisted. I was playing on patch 3.05 where they had mistakenly made Kiel's Overture available from the start of the game instead of it being locked to one of the end-game realms and that fortunately made it bearable, but as of 3.07 they just fixed that 'bug', so now people playing with imported characters will have it even harder than I did. Monster spell resist and AC values in Arboria and Gelidia are clearly balanced around characters having been levelled from 1 to 35 and having mid-20s stats as a result, and characters imported with 20s are frustrating to play.

The point is that these are supposed to be 'overpowered' characters but they feel terrible to play for a large part of BT3 because of how behind on stats they are. You havn't played the game so I don't understand why you are trying to argue this point with me - I've played it, the imported characters suck and I'm done arguing it with you when you're just being argumentative for the sake of it and havn't actually experienced it.
I'm trying to figure out how new characters can have that much of an advantage when the stats of newly created characters are so low and the leveling curve does not support them being able to catch up and overtake imported characters. And in spite of what seems to to me to be you being argumentative and hostile just for the sake of it, you have actually answered my question, so thank you.

If you're willing to humor my argumentative nature by answering a question, does the gear imported characters bring with them help in any way? Or has the good stuff, like a Paladin's Pureblade (with +8 to hit in BT2) been stripped away and/or nerfed? How about Monks with their astronomical level based to-hit bonus?
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Re: Bards Tale 3 Beta

Post by Drool » January 10th, 2019, 12:32 pm

Okay, so, I decided to do some testing.

I started a new game and used the A-Team as my party. Yes, they're not very good, but I think they're a fair representative of "average, non-obsessive player". I then took them in and killed Brilhasti to give comparison stats. I'll provide links for everything, but since we've been focused on the Rogue:

Image
Image

Brian the Fist (Paladin):
https://puu.sh/CuEOH/435e9186d4.png
https://puu.sh/CuEVi/b60cb44418.png

El Cid (Warrior):
https://puu.sh/CuEOG/f7a0025373.png
https://puu.sh/CuEVF/e3aaee5884.png

Markus (Bard):
https://puu.sh/CuEOQ/26328a1972.png
https://puu.sh/CuEVY/dc0dfb13a6.png

Merlin (Conjurer):
https://puu.sh/CuEPp/396de1a47b.png
https://puu.sh/CuEWw/65b670e65b.png

Omar (Magician):
https://puu.sh/CuEPG/3dc4696d35.png
https://puu.sh/CuEWK/26bee70a9e.png

These aren't exactly game-breaking stats.
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