Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

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Iiago
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Iiago » October 8th, 2018, 5:15 pm

While I don't agree with DNACowboy's tone or dragging politics into this, I do share his frustration.

This forum has been very helpful for me when I've had questions, which I'm grateful for. But it is a very negative place. I do not come to the Bard's Tale forum to sit around and bitch about how much I hate it. But, ironically, that's what the forum's turned into - and it is usually the same people making the same complaints. The Steam page is a much more friendly place - probably because under normal circumstances, if people hate a game, they don't hang around on its dedicated forums carrying on about how disappointing it is.

When I love a game, I go to its forums to share that love with other people. I can't do that here - I can only pick fights or complain.

I'm checking these forums quite a bit for news and commentary, but there's a reason I don't say much. I suspect I am not the only one.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Gizmo » October 8th, 2018, 6:05 pm

Iiago wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 5:15 pm
I do not come to the Bard's Tale forum to sit around and bitch about how much I hate it. But, ironically, that's what the forum's turned into - and it is usually the same people making the same complaints.
I do not see it as irony, I see it as cause & effect. ;)

If the shoes were switched, and they had made BT4 in line with BT1-3*, instead of a partial clone of some unrelated game, then those people would not be complaining... and it would be the other group...complaining...that BT4 was...in line with the BT series. Image

*[...and that does not mean a 1:1 EGA copy of them.]

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » October 8th, 2018, 6:19 pm

Iiago wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 5:15 pm
I do not come to the Bard's Tale forum to sit around and bitch about how much I hate it.
Yep, only "haters" do that... :lol:

I don't know what you are calling "hate", but a lot of the critical remarks about the game can fall broadly into a handful of categories:
  • People upset with the distribution of the game: game key delivery, availability of digital rewards, patch releases lagging on GoG, etc....
  • People upset about the nasty bugs that they've encountered.
  • People annoyed by limitations of the games' systems, such as opportunity, skills, combat, save/restore, etc...
  • People upset that inXile didn't make a new Bard's Tale game.
There really isn't all that much overlap between people making remarks in the various categories. The "negativity" is what inXile brought upon itself.

If some of us have taken an interest in various metrics about how the game has been received, such as what this thread attempts to gauge, then that shouldn't seem surprising. At various points, we were told that we a small minority and that sales to the mass market would prove how insignificant we were. At various points, we were told that history would shine on the game and that the initial spate of negative reviews was due to "haters" getting first jump or even a hater conspiracy. And, throughout much of the game's development, some of us were here in this forum, offering constructive feedback to inXile, based on the information we had, to warn them about the path they were going down and we were blithely ignored. Now, the numbers are showing that we are vindicated in many ways.

In the period between the beta and the release and after the release, various people held it over us that inXile had made a different game than what we wanted, because we allegedly wanted something antiquated and unsuited to the "modern" palate. Well, it seems like tons of bugs, uninspired skills trees, save points, lack of randomness, and combat that falls into a couple of repetitive patterns isn't well-suited to the "modern" palate either. inXile would've been better off releasing an actual Bard's Tale game that fans of the original could've rallied behind in spite of the bugs and other issues surrounding the game.
Iiago wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 5:15 pm
When I love a game, I go to its forums to share that love with other people. I can't do that here - I can only pick fights or complain.
Part of the problem is that there are a few people, who apparently love the game (assuming they're not trolling), who do try to pick fights with those of us who have issues with it. If you disagree with us, feel free to ignore us. No need to tell us what a bunch of "haters" we all are - that's just stirring up trouble.
cmibl<enter>

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Jalis » October 8th, 2018, 8:37 pm

Why is DNACowboy not banned? Dragging politics and making assumptions on that sort of thing accomplishes what? Disgusting display of trolling, completely unnecessary and one of the weakest displays of "debating" differing opinions. It's hard to stay on topic and keep forums friendly -- even amongst disagreements -- when you have people and posts like those. That should not be part of this community.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Woolfe » October 8th, 2018, 8:47 pm

Jalis wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 8:37 pm
Why is DNACowboy not banned? Dragging politics and making assumptions on that sort of thing accomplishes what? Disgusting display of trolling, completely unnecessary and one of the weakest displays of "debating" differing opinions. It's hard to stay on topic and keep forums friendly -- even amongst disagreements -- when you have people and posts like those. That should not be part of this community.
Report him if you feel he is going too far.

Many of us have thick skins, and tend to ignore it until it gets particularly personal. Generally something is likely going on in the background though.
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Themadcow » October 9th, 2018, 2:15 am

I'm fine with DNACowboy apart from the Trumpian stuff, which is pretty poor. He genuinely likes the game and positive voices are important for reasonable debate.

One of the reasons the same names come up time after time is that inXile did a terrible job with community engagement. The Kickstarter campaign itself was very good, with regular updates and lots of interactivity to help push funding. However, once it finished there was almost radio silence from the Devs with incredibly rare email updates and minimal forum activity. This is a game with 34,000 backers. That's 34,000 people to keep hyped about the game so that they tell their friends about it, and stimulate media interest (clicks drive content).

Now, I understand that there is a period of pre-production when progress is slow - but this is also the critical time to keep engagement high with as MANY people as possible so that you get a decent spread of feedback and lots of testing feedback at Beta. This didn't happen, so instead you ended up with forums being kept alive (barely, 1 post a week sometimes) by the hard core of fans who have genuinely been waiting for a BT sequel for 30 years. Not surprisingly, we're the most invested and therefore likely to be the most critical if things go wrong.

Anyway, this is a thread to discuss the commercial performance of the game. In lieu of any information from inXile (understandable) it's interesting to many of us how this game is doing. The original Bards Tale shifted well over a million units in the 80's so to see this pseudo-sequel apparently struggle is disappointing, if a little predictable given the niche puzzle based game-play and launch issues.
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Woolfe » October 9th, 2018, 3:08 am

Themadcow wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 2:15 am
I'm fine with DNACowboy apart from the Trumpian stuff, which is pretty poor. He genuinely likes the game and positive voices are important for reasonable debate.

One of the reasons the same names come up time after time is that inXile did a terrible job with community engagement. The Kickstarter campaign itself was very good, with regular updates and lots of interactivity to help push funding. However, once it finished there was almost radio silence from the Devs with incredibly rare email updates and minimal forum activity. This is a game with 34,000 backers. That's 34,000 people to keep hyped about the game so that they tell their friends about it, and stimulate media interest (clicks drive content).

Now, I understand that there is a period of pre-production when progress is slow - but this is also the critical time to keep engagement high with as MANY people as possible so that you get a decent spread of feedback and lots of testing feedback at Beta. This didn't happen, so instead you ended up with forums being kept alive (barely, 1 post a week sometimes) by the hard core of fans who have genuinely been waiting for a BT sequel for 30 years. Not surprisingly, we're the most invested and therefore likely to be the most critical if things go wrong.

Anyway, this is a thread to discuss the commercial performance of the game. In lieu of any information from inXile (understandable) it's interesting to many of us how this game is doing. The original Bards Tale shifted well over a million units in the 80's so to see this pseudo-sequel apparently struggle is disappointing, if a little predictable given the niche puzzle based game-play and launch issues.
This is unfortunately modus operandi for InXile, it was the same in WL2 and TTON. They keep getting new community managers etc, and they help a bit, but it always seemed to me that the gags came from the top down. Shrug. Its why I am not backing WL3.
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Themadcow » October 9th, 2018, 3:48 am

I only backed WL2 and TToN in the hope that inXile would create a faithful BT sequel eventually. I haven't even installed TToN yet. Oh well :/
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by DNACowboy » October 9th, 2018, 4:00 am

Drool wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 2:15 pm
DNACowboy wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 6:02 am
The very same people (Trumpians)
DNACowboy wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 2:10 pm
Why you need to get personal is beyond me
Mhmm.
'Getting personal' as in targeting the individual? Did I at any time target you personally? Seriously, does everything have to be spelt out?
This poster receives no commercial consideration or work from Inxile, he truly believes Bards Tale IV: Barrows Deep to be a great game and one he enjoys on a daily basis

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ZiN
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by ZiN » October 9th, 2018, 5:52 am

Got censored on the Steam forums again, due to my snarky response to some people who were suggesting that steam reviews are lying and should be removed, etc. I'm sure amazed by how some people can get behind removing the right to freely express one's opinion about a game.

As you can see, my "trolling post" contained true and valid reasons, why mixed reviews are well-deserved, even if in a sarcastic tone.

These threads are quite noteworthy:
"really want to play this game. But reviews give me bad feeling about this game."
"I'm concerned about the wildly mixed response..."

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Woolfe » October 9th, 2018, 6:47 am

DNACowboy wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 4:00 am
Drool wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 2:15 pm
DNACowboy wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 6:02 am
The very same people (Trumpians)
DNACowboy wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 2:10 pm
Why you need to get personal is beyond me
Mhmm.
'Getting personal' as in targeting the individual? Did I at any time target you personally? Seriously, does everything have to be spelt out?
He included them together, because you have been referring to people as "trumpians" in what is clearly meant to be an insulting fashion, and then you ask "why you need to get personal is beyond me" when someone else referred to you as having low esteem.

The suggestion of course being that people are getting personal with you, because you are getting personal with them first. Which is against the rules of the forum. Drool is a mod.
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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Spectralshade » October 9th, 2018, 7:04 am

Themadcow wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 2:15 am
This is a game with 34,000 backers. That's 34,000 people to keep hyped about the game so that they tell their friends about it, and stimulate media interest (clicks drive content).
considering the amount of backers, the amount of people actively playing it should be concerning. For the kickstarter to be considered a 'success', you would asume a high amount of the backers that actually backed the project would be enthustiastic about getting to play it when it was released. Having less than a thousand active players (according to the metrics given in this thread) when you tally both backers and new sales seem a bit on the low side.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Gizmo » October 9th, 2018, 9:46 am

ZiN wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 5:52 am
I'm sure amazed by how some people can get behind removing the right to freely express one's opinion about a game.

As you can see, my "trolling post" contained true and valid reasons, why mixed reviews are well-deserved, even if in a sarcastic tone.
Unfortunately they are in the right, when it is on their forum (they pay for it), and when there is no expectation of free speech.

In this, they behave like a telegraph service, who has a list of dirty words (among other things) that they won't transmit; it is their service. Our option is to use someone else, or pay for our own. :(

(That doesn't excuse it for being slippery though.)

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by ZiN » October 9th, 2018, 11:10 am

Yup, that's why I'm surprised, that people actually suggest the Steam review section to be removed/reworked. Reviews are the only section that developers can't censor on Steam, luckily, but if you look at those threads I linked earlier, you will see several people who would actually favour completely removing customers' rights to express their opinions about games.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Tuoweit » October 9th, 2018, 11:14 am

ZiN wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 11:10 am
Yup, that's why I'm surprised, that people actually suggest the Steam review section to be removed/reworked. Reviews are the only section that developers can't censor on Steam, luckily, but if you look at those threads I linked earlier, you will see several people who would actually favour completely removing customers' rights to express their opinions about games.
Removing the reviews section would in no way remove customers' rights to express their opinions about games - it would only remove a venue in which to do so. You would still be able to express your opinions via many other venues - third party websites, social media, etc. I don't think the reviews should be removed either, but let's not get all in a huff about "rights" when it has nothing to do with rights.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by ZiN » October 9th, 2018, 11:39 am

Yeah, perhaps the Steam license agreement doesn't explicitly state leaving a review as the users' right. If something, instead of removing reviews, I'd suggest adding that to the agreement, if possible.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by DNACowboy » October 12th, 2018, 4:54 am

Woolfe wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 6:47 am
DNACowboy wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 4:00 am
Drool wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 2:15 pm



Mhmm.
'Getting personal' as in targeting the individual? Did I at any time target you personally? Seriously, does everything have to be spelt out?
He included them together, because you have been referring to people as "trumpians" in what is clearly meant to be an insulting fashion, and then you ask "why you need to get personal is beyond me" when someone else referred to you as having low esteem.

The suggestion of course being that people are getting personal with you, because you are getting personal with them first. Which is against the rules of the forum. Drool is a mod.
What a surprise, as expected, you have reversed the actual situation, I and others (who have supported what we believe to be a great game) have been attacked personally from the moment the beta came out, as opposed to a general observation by me to a group of people, so please forgive me if I take your special pleading about 'personal attacks' for the hypocritical nonsense it obviously is. However, having said that, I am happy to leave things as they stand on the understanding I receive no more personal attacks.
This poster receives no commercial consideration or work from Inxile, he truly believes Bards Tale IV: Barrows Deep to be a great game and one he enjoys on a daily basis

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Spectralshade » October 12th, 2018, 7:25 am

DNACowboy wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 4:54 am
Woolfe wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 6:47 am
DNACowboy wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 4:00 am


'Getting personal' as in targeting the individual? Did I at any time target you personally? Seriously, does everything have to be spelt out?
He included them together, because you have been referring to people as "trumpians" in what is clearly meant to be an insulting fashion, and then you ask "why you need to get personal is beyond me" when someone else referred to you as having low esteem.

The suggestion of course being that people are getting personal with you, because you are getting personal with them first. Which is against the rules of the forum. Drool is a mod.
What a surprise, as expected, you have reversed the actual situation, I and others (who have supported what we believe to be a great game) have been attacked personally from the moment the beta came out, as opposed to a general observation by me to a group of people, so please forgive me if I take your special pleading about 'personal attacks' for the hypocritical nonsense it obviously is. However, having said that, I am happy to leave things as they stand on the understanding I receive no more personal attacks.
yet you couldn't resist replying in the thread solely about personal issues while mounting a veiled jab yourself at one of the people you replied to...

:roll:

So what's your opinion on the steam activity of the game?

Looking at global achievements, I find it interesting that 61% 'prayed to an altar' (highest rated achievement) yet only 31% reached level 10 with a character. That's about half the player base that started playing and thus got the 'altar achievement' that never played enough to get level 10.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Jalis » October 12th, 2018, 7:25 am

DNACowboy, the kinds of attacks you threw out there have no place here, much less in society as a whole. They were ignorant and outside of the point, bringing in politics and the like simply because you disagree or felt attacked yourself. I'm sad that you are allowed to participate here despite that behavior.

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Re: Analysis of Steam activity for BT4

Post by Woolfe » October 12th, 2018, 5:01 pm

DNACowboy wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 4:54 am
Woolfe wrote:
October 9th, 2018, 6:47 am
He included them together, because you have been referring to people as "trumpians" in what is clearly meant to be an insulting fashion, and then you ask "why you need to get personal is beyond me" when someone else referred to you as having low esteem.

The suggestion of course being that people are getting personal with you, because you are getting personal with them first. Which is against the rules of the forum. Drool is a mod.
What a surprise, as expected, you have reversed the actual situation, I and others (who have supported what we believe to be a great game) have been attacked personally from the moment the beta came out, as opposed to a general observation by me to a group of people, so please forgive me if I take your special pleading about 'personal attacks' for the hypocritical nonsense it obviously is. However, having said that, I am happy to leave things as they stand on the understanding I receive no more personal attacks.
Mate. I was simply pointing out that in this thread that you did the above. Now it may well be that you didn't mean it to come across that way, but from my point of view that is what it appeared like.
It may also be that you are talking about things that are occurring across multiple threads, but I don't personally follow every little thing you say, so I can only go by what you say in this thread, and in this thread, the very first thing you said was.
DNACowboy wrote:
October 8th, 2018, 6:02 am
Lol, this is getting more bizarre by the day. :D The very same people (Trumpians) who have been moaning and bitching about how the dev team have failed to 'Make Bards Tale IV Great Again'' are creating ever more threads repeating ad nauseum the same tired, dated complaints they made months ago.
Honestly guys, please give it a rest. :D :lol:
Which is clearly an attack on some people, presumably the OP at the very least. You added no new content, you didn't address the analysis, nor did you offer an alternative view to the OP.

If you think people are attacking you personally, then you should use the report function and have it dealt with. If you don't like how it is being dealt with by the mods, then put a complaint in to a super moderator.

This is the last I have to say on the matter, as technically I am breaking a forum rule by backseat moderating. So from now on I will simply report anything I find offensive that comes from you.
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