Really dislike the combat system

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by rmcoen » September 22nd, 2018, 3:06 pm

Honestly, never occurred to me to have 6 Trow. Wow. Just... wow.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by _noblesse_oblige_ » September 22nd, 2018, 4:14 pm

rmcoen wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am
Combat in BT1 (recently played remastered): Attack, Attack, Attack, Fire Horn, Defend, Defend, Defend. (by end of game: MIBL, MIBL, MIBL.)
Not really. You can choose to decline boring fights most of the time (the "Run" option). And there are plenty of spells that work better for various situations than MIBL. Also, bard songs in combat should not be underestimated. Plenty of tactical variety, if you choose fights that actually challenge you. (And, the ones that don't probably aren't worth your time, as the XP-to-time investment ratio is likely to be small for your party's level.) And, it's not like one has to grind in the remasters either.
rmcoen wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am
Combat in BT4: Firehorn, charged bolt, taunt, shiv, arrow, BONUS!, chop, Chug, Sanctuary Score. And then Round 2: shiv, sweep, arrow, BONUS! chop, arcane barrage, arcane barrage, Execute. Sanctuary Score again, if foes remain.
The fact that I don't see a bunch of if-then statements in the above shows a lack of tactical variation. So, now instead of repeating the same sequence of actions across one round, you repeat them across two?
rmcoen wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am
I'm sorry, why do I want BT4 combat more like BT1?
No idea - I guess it must be some sort of personal preference in the same way that many people don't prefer the BT4 combat.
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ZiN
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » September 25th, 2018, 2:03 am

I have played a bit, so here are my observations about the magic system, so far:

There are 2 types of mage builds:
One that stacks strength, with a "mastery bar" of: 1. Spectre Touch, 2. Warstrike, 3. Flesh Restore, 4. Meditate.
One that stacks intelligence: 1. Arcane Barrage, 2. Mangar's Mind Jab, 3. Mangar's Mallet, 4. Meditate.
And, of course both have the Levitation trinket on 5.

Races: Trow > Baed (once fixed) > Elf (once fixed), the rest is garbage.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » September 25th, 2018, 4:42 am

Well, on the steam forums I've seen comments from people where they admit that even though they thought the combat was deeper at first, they realized after playing some more that they still ended up just using the same abilities over and over, which really wasn't deeper. In effect, the devs have substituted the sytem from the trilogy with a different system that is no more involving than the previous but instead of letting you get through it fast with keypresses, combat now takes alot longer due to animoations and having to click different places with the mouse onthe screen.

I guess if you want to push it, you could call combat for a fancy clicker-game ;)

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by rmcoen » September 25th, 2018, 8:19 am

ZiN wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 2:03 am
I have played a bit, so here are my observations about the magic system, so far:

There are 2 types of mage builds:
One that stacks strength, with a "mastery bar" of: 1. Spectre Touch, 2. Warstrike, 3. Flesh Restore, 4. Meditate.
One that stacks intelligence: 1. Arcane Barrage, 2. Mangar's Mind Jab, 3. Mangar's Mallet, 4. Meditate.
And, of course both have the Levitation trinket on 5.

Races: Trow > Baed (once fixed) > Elf (once fixed), the rest is garbage.
Huh, I don't have the Levitation skill at all. I kept Green Lady. I almost never use Dragon Breath, but I use Charged Bolt and Arcane Barrage to set Conjuror's Marks (Grand Conjuror) on everyone. I never use Meditate at all, I have too many other things (Rogue-y stabby shooty things, usually) to do. With 6 chars now and 5 Opps, Meditate never gets an action.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Applicator » September 25th, 2018, 10:03 pm

rmcoen wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am
Combat in Wizardry: Attack, Attack, Attack, PArry, PArry, PArry. (Occasionally cast a spell.)
Combat in BT1 (recently played remastered): Attack, Attack, Attack, Fire Horn, Defend, Defend, Defend. (by end of game: MIBL, MIBL, MIBL.)

Combat in BT4: Firehorn, charged bolt, taunt, shiv, arrow, BONUS!, chop, Chug, Sanctuary Score. And then Round 2: shiv, sweep, arrow, BONUS! chop, arcane barrage, arcane barrage, Execute. Sanctuary Score again, if foes remain.

I'm sorry, why do I want BT4 combat more like BT1?
100% this. The combat is great and you need to think on your feet each round and plan out the order of abilities.

AAAADDD was terrible in comparison.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Marthos » September 25th, 2018, 10:28 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
September 20th, 2018, 8:31 pm
EVERY combat feels like a hand-to-hand melee. Almost makes using bows worthless. (Except that you need them to hit a target three squares away) No long range sniping allowed. No opening combat with an arrow coming out of nowhere. No shielding weaker characters by putting a good distance from the fray.
My party is very melee heavy, and I got my butt handed to me once I ran into a bunch of enemies that counter-attack melee. That sword strike that hits 3 times? Don't even think about it! My rogue with a bow saved my hide big time there. Other than those enemies, you're right that melee will get the job done. With all the skills available, I'd like to see more situation where you have to use different specs to win. Armor was an interesting mechanic, but made obsolete with the Biting Taunt skill, also a certain weapon that removes armor.

Maybe as I get closer to end-game, it will get more challenging...right now it's just Conjurer's mark + melee and the whole enemy team explodes.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by thebruce » September 26th, 2018, 9:13 am

Marthos wrote:
September 25th, 2018, 10:28 pm
With all the skills available, I'd like to see more situation where you have to use different specs to win. Armor was an interesting mechanic, but made obsolete with the Biting Taunt skill, also a certain weapon that removes armor.

Maybe as I get closer to end-game, it will get more challenging...right now it's just Conjurer's mark + melee and the whole enemy team explodes.
Actually, I don't want to see win scenarios be made more stringent - the best part about BT was that with so many skills there were multiple routes to success in combat, if you were able to master strategizing with the skills you had. If you want to play through all melee, it might be easier or harder, but doable; or focusing on magic, same. I'd rather not see a push towards requiring a strong setup of any particular strategy in order to win. Even in the originals when it came to requiring a specific class to accomplish some feat, I believe every instance had an alternate method for success. Save for a couple, if I recall.
BT isn't a linear rail-based RPG. It should be about choosing your route, and finding a way to earn success with the route you've chosen.

Maybe you didn't mean to imply restricting success to a specific combat strategy (using specific spec setups)... but I suppose also finding that line between 'hard' and 'restricted' can be tough. If someone can't figure out something hard, they might consider it restrictive. *shrug*
But you get my point, I hope :)
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by paultakeda » September 26th, 2018, 10:31 am

Woolfe wrote:
September 21st, 2018, 6:31 am
I'm actually holding off until the first major patch.... :-D

And I didn't play the beta.. .so no idea honestly :-)
You and me both. Heck, I may wait for a DC. :lol:

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Woolfe » September 26th, 2018, 6:06 pm

paultakeda wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 10:31 am
Woolfe wrote:
September 21st, 2018, 6:31 am
I'm actually holding off until the first major patch.... :-D

And I didn't play the beta.. .so no idea honestly :-)
You and me both. Heck, I may wait for a DC. :lol:
Indeed, at the size of the game I may need to wait a while anyway, I am currently playing several different games mulitplayer that require large chunks of space as well as the single player games I am currently playing, so trying to manage the 50 odd gig it wants to install is a bit annoying.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by rmcoen » September 27th, 2018, 8:06 am

commented in the "RNG vs. Formula" thread, but will repeat here:

Add a "Run" mechanic, instead of "Surrender and Die". Gives a way to end a failing combat or the uncommon "neither team's survivors can hurt the other (armor)". Can have a fail chance. Needs a consequence, even if "enemy fully heals" (since the player can fully heal with food or save totem).

Add a "Use Inventory Items" mechanic. Put a large Opportunity Cost on it, so it's very inefficient - basically, you can maybe use an item and do one other thing if you have a bonus somewhere (Trow, Rabble Rouser, whatever). Add a skill (maybe Rogues and Bards only) for "Quick Hands" that reduces this penalty for that character. Allows option to be creative, grab a critical greater healing potion, toss a Bile Bomb, *something* that is unusual and unplanned.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by paultakeda » September 27th, 2018, 9:45 am

Woolfe wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 6:06 pm
paultakeda wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 10:31 am
Woolfe wrote:
September 21st, 2018, 6:31 am
I'm actually holding off until the first major patch.... :-D

And I didn't play the beta.. .so no idea honestly :-)
You and me both. Heck, I may wait for a DC. :lol:
Indeed, at the size of the game I may need to wait a while anyway, I am currently playing several different games mulitplayer that require large chunks of space as well as the single player games I am currently playing, so trying to manage the 50 odd gig it wants to install is a bit annoying.
That said, I did play with the beta long enough to realize it was unplayable for me (and I duly noted that). I may boot up the release just to see if they resolved that particular issue for my apparently lowly R7 370.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Marthos » October 1st, 2018, 9:06 pm

thebruce wrote:
September 26th, 2018, 9:13 am
Maybe you didn't mean to imply restricting success to a specific combat strategy (using specific spec setups)... but I suppose also finding that line between 'hard' and 'restricted' can be tough. If someone can't figure out something hard, they might consider it restrictive. *shrug*
But you get my point, I hope :)
I wouldn't go all the way towards the extreme of needing a specific strategy to beat combat. But I think combat would have been better served going a bit more that route instead of the "god-mode kill everything in two turns" system we have now once you combo two things together (keeping this spoiler free but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about).

Combat system could have a ton of depth in it with battles that last longer (either more variety, hard-counters, more multi-waves, whatever). Right now I don't see much value for movement/positioning, summoning, or bard songs...stuff that would be life or death in longer battles. Armor, as I mentioned before, could be a cool mechanic that made you want a diverse party or load up on the melee skills to remove it, but when I remove all armor from all my opponents on the first round while dishing out amazing AOE damage, what's the point of that mechanic?

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by thebruce » October 2nd, 2018, 7:42 am

What I find interesting in thinking of the original trilogy combat mechanic, is that there really is an endless amount of various party makeups and fight strategies, and many that can find success throughout the game. The challenge wasn't to find the strategy that worked (save for a few very special encounters), but rather how to optimize the route you took in developing your character in order to be successful. The result isn't much different, but the perspective of character development is differenent. IMO, in an RPG the weight should really be more on developing your characters how you want to, and still being able to find success - and if there's something that requires a specific route, the game should strongly imply that (ie hints dropped for BT2 snares that might require dropping some slots, or having certain characters in the party - then you're prepared for strict requirements). Otherwise, the entire games were about improving the characters you chose and finding item and spell combinations that worked with your own structure. Not trying to... well, 'game the systme' as it were by optimize statistics in order to have the setup necessary to continue on in general gameplay.

I think that's one of the major differences in BT4 vs 1-3 which really becomes apparent in the combat/skill system.
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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Morandir » October 2nd, 2018, 2:19 pm

One thing I seriously dislike about the combat system is that EVERYTHING seems to start on cooldown and my mages start with one mana every fight.

Maybe I'm not doing it right but I have to spend a round basically generating mana (meditate / medidate / bard drinks, casts mana generating power and potentially one other spell / rogue hides and uses razer strop, fighters sit there looking stupid because all their abilities are on cooldown any way).

They get a round of abuse, then round 2 it's unload arcane barrages, snipe from the rogue and a couple of melee attacks from the fighters. Most fights usually don't go beyond two or three rounds.

What I would propose is the following:
1) Mages start with whatever mana they have carried over from the previous combat and mana is maintained outside of combat, with some abilities that allow you to charge in combat. Focus potions become usable outside of combat as well to recharge mana. You could have a special bard song to recharge mana (like in BT 1 and 2).
2) Get rid of all channeled abilities. They just cost mana or opportunity now and fire immediately.
3) Every character gets their own pool of opportunity points. You could balance melee attacks with weak being 1, medium 2, strong 3 for example.
4) Give tanks the ability to REQUIRE mobs attack them directly instead of soaking half damage from other mobs.
5) Don't allow any melee attacks to reach the second row (of either side) unless the first row is clear. Magic and ranged damage only.
6) Add Bard songs, spells and abilities to defend against magical strikes.

I don't pretend to know the system inside and out but these are a few changes I think would improve the combat and allow players to more easily fit their play style.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » October 2nd, 2018, 3:42 pm

Morandir wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 2:19 pm
One thing I seriously dislike about the combat system is that EVERYTHING seems to start on cooldown and my mages start with one mana every fight.

Maybe I'm not doing it right but I have to spend a round basically generating mana (meditate / medidate / bard drinks, casts mana generating power and potentially one other spell / rogue hides and uses razer strop, fighters sit there looking stupid because all their abilities are on cooldown any way).

They get a round of abuse, then round 2 it's unload arcane barrages, snipe from the rogue and a couple of melee attacks from the fighters. Most fights usually don't go beyond two or three rounds.

What I would propose is the following:
1) Mages start with whatever mana they have carried over from the previous combat and mana is maintained outside of combat, with some abilities that allow you to charge in combat. Focus potions become usable outside of combat as well to recharge mana. You could have a special bard song to recharge mana (like in BT 1 and 2).
2) Get rid of all channeled abilities. They just cost mana or opportunity now and fire immediately.
3) Every character gets their own pool of opportunity points. You could balance melee attacks with weak being 1, medium 2, strong 3 for example.
4) Give tanks the ability to REQUIRE mobs attack them directly instead of soaking half damage from other mobs.
5) Don't allow any melee attacks to reach the second row (of either side) unless the first row is clear. Magic and ranged damage only.
6) Add Bard songs, spells and abilities to defend against magical strikes.

I don't pretend to know the system inside and out but these are a few changes I think would improve the combat and allow players to more easily fit their play style.
i read somewhere there is rogue ability that lets you prep for a round or so, giving you the mana you want for unloading death

edit: just to be clear: I'm not trying tod efend the combat system, because I think it is one of the major problems with the game. I was merely trying to help you under the circumstances that we do find us in.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » October 3rd, 2018, 2:01 am

The combat system itself could be quite interesting. It's similar to Lords of Xulima's combat, slightly dumbed down, with less enemies, 4 ability limit and opportunity instead of initiative. The problem is that they have failed to utilize its potential.

The main flaw of course is the lack of variety in opponents: They all pretty much do the same thing, so after 5 combats it all becomes trivial.
Coupled with the non-existent AI, this makes every combat extremely predictable, easy and repetitive. More repetitive than the classics. In the classics there were always different kinds of group compositions, every dungeon had its own denizens and getting a new enemy portrait to show up was cool. And even though most of the enemies got easily disposed of, it still cost some long-term resources, such as HP and SP, so there was at least some kind of sense of danger of going too deep.

Complete lack of tuning and balancing leads to the player effortlessly steamrolling 95% of the battles, even on hard difficulty. Even with some of the epic "classes" abilities not working properly (commander, guardian, grand rabble-rouser, etc.) it is still completely one-sided for the player's favor. Not to mention boring and unrewarding.

So, while the basic idea of this combat system is not bad, the execution is very lacklustre in my opinion and failed to bring more interesting and fun combat, than the classics (not just BT, but most other dungeon-crawlers).

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » October 3rd, 2018, 4:42 am

ZiN wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 2:01 am
The combat system itself could be quite interesting. It's similar to Lords of Xulima's combat, slightly dumbed down, with less enemies, 4 ability limit and opportunity instead of initiative. The problem is that they have failed to utilize its potential.

The main flaw of course is the lack of variety in opponents: They all pretty much do the same thing, so after 5 combats it all becomes trivial.
Coupled with the non-existent AI, this makes every combat extremely predictable, easy and repetitive. More repetitive than the classics. In the classics there were always different kinds of group compositions, every dungeon had its own denizens and getting a new enemy portrait to show up was cool. And even though most of the enemies got easily disposed of, it still cost some long-term resources, such as HP and SP, so there was at least some kind of sense of danger of going too deep.

Complete lack of tuning and balancing leads to the player effortlessly steamrolling 95% of the battles, even on hard difficulty. Even with some of the epic "classes" abilities not working properly (commander, guardian, grand rabble-rouser, etc.) it is still completely one-sided for the player's favor. Not to mention boring and unrewarding.

So, while the basic idea of this combat system is not bad, the execution is very lacklustre in my opinion and failed to bring more interesting and fun combat, than the classics (not just BT, but most other dungeon-crawlers).
I just saw a video on the steamforum showing someone complete the final fight simply by using taunts to get the enemies in front of the bard, and then just keep singing the same song while throwing empty bottles. wave2 'final baddie' died to the first song after he appeared, even. It looked really simply, but also pretty boring, imo. And the monsters got a grand total of 1 turn where all it seemed they did was walk around a bit and start different channels.

That looked like quite the anti-climax to me.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by ZiN » October 3rd, 2018, 5:02 am

Sure enough, another guy did it by spamming "Arcane Barrage" (the level 1 spell) like crazy, which is also a solution to 95% of the "tactical" battles in the game.

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Re: Really dislike the combat system

Post by Spectralshade » October 3rd, 2018, 6:13 am

ZiN wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 5:02 am
Sure enough, another guy did it by spamming "Arcane Barrage" (the level 1 spell) like crazy, which is also a solution to 95% of the "tactical" battles in the game.
dare I say it?

A shortkey for that would be 'A'...

*tries to surpress giggle*

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