Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Dreamer81
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Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Dreamer81 » February 24th, 2018, 5:49 am

First, i would like to say thank you for Wasteland 2. i've never played a good TBTCG playing in a post-apocalyptic world since Fallout: Tactics, Fallout 2. beneath x-com 1 & 2 (remakes), Wasteland 2 is one of 10games I loved to play.

However, there are some points I would like to list here, and be first one that reminds you to don't the same mistakes in Wasteland 2.

1) let me begin with special animations/moves:
In Wasteland 2 in original and Director's Cut i missed realistic moves. My team could't move in crouch, they couldn't jump over walls, climb low walls, climb houses up to roof, even they could't lay down to protect against being uncovered. My team should be more professional, especially in high levels.

2) disarming explosives traps: i'd never seen a person that disarmed explosives traps/mines by standing. They need to kneel at least.

3) no prepare of ambush, all time i had to start combat with full attention, no one of my time could'nt stay undiscovered and wait for ambush.

4) energy weapons in Director's Cut: i am sorry to say that way but you f***** it up with your tr to rebalance the Wasteland2 by differ conductive/nonconductive armored enemies. The aspect of conductive/non-conductive enemies should give the energy weapon user be a small extra damage done bonus. Just for your information: there are many kind of energy weapons not only electric power conductive voa like a electric shocker (weapon of a police officer). The balance of original Wasteland2 was far better than the directors cut. I mean, i'd to fight against 5-10armored enemies with 300-450 hitpoints, and my Deathbeam did only 25damage on them. That's joke, right? So, be smart and differ between laser canons, high melting blaster, pulse canons, plasma rifles giring high heated shells, gauss rifles and not only kind of conductive/non-conductive ammo like needles of electric shocker.

My team is level35, so they are high ecoerienced veteran/rangers. Despite that fact i had friendly fire, despite hitchance 80%+ (basic hit chance 100%). Who experienced soldier runs in line of shooting directins? My team is well trained, do many combats, and they are still not able to control their fire?? Bad work in DC. In originsl it worked far better.

Last point: gambling. If you want implement a mini-game like black jack, roulette, poker, pachinco machine be professional and do it right way, and not same way like in wasteland2/DC . I'd never won one gambling bet. So, don't dare to bring mini-games if they don't work or you are not able to run it correctly without let them be rigged and say sorry afterwards. If you aren't capable to bring mini-games, then don't.

Wish the developers good luck. I hope i may to play a far better/realistic balanced turn based tactical combats in wasteland3

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Gizmo » February 24th, 2018, 7:07 am

Dreamer81 wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:49 am
Despite that fact i had friendly fire, despite hitchance 80%+ (basic hit chance 100%).
You should get that even if it was 99%. It's a probability, not a guarantee. Think of it this way, a professional football player can still drop the ball three times in a row—despite being an expert; and just as a juggler can—despite being an expert.

It's not supposed to build up an accumulative chance of missing for hitting too many times in a row, or vice-versa**; it should be the same chance every time. You can roll the 100, and you can roll the 100 again.

**Although some developers do (unfortunately) choose to fake the odds for the player's benefit, instead of using an honest percentile. :(

The percentile roll represents all aspects of the situation (both what is, and what is not, under their control). It might not be missing on skill alone, it could be anything, it could be bad footing, or dust in the eye; sweaty fingers—or bloody fingers... or just plain bad luck. It can technically happen indefinitely for each outcome, hit or miss, at 99% to hit, and 1% to miss; and that's any game that uses honest percentages.

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Zombra
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Zombra » February 24th, 2018, 9:21 am

Standing/crouching/prone options would be an obvious way to add an extra dimension to Wasteland combat and visual interest and give it a more military feel for sure.
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Gizmo » February 24th, 2018, 12:17 pm

I'd like a system that was par with Fallout Tactics; the Turn Based mode, not that awful default combat.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Stuurminator » February 25th, 2018, 7:53 am

Dreamer81 wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 5:49 am
My team is level35, so they are high ecoerienced veteran/rangers. Despite that fact i had friendly fire, despite hitchance 80%+ (basic hit chance 100%). Who experienced soldier runs in line of shooting directins? My team is well trained, do many combats, and they are still not able to control their fire?? Bad work in DC. In originsl it worked far better.
I don't understand this one. If your team members are getting hit by friendly fire, it's because you put them in the line of fire. Are you saying your rangers should refuse to move to a location once they get more experienced? Or that more experienced rangers should be able to curve bullets around each other?

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by sear » February 25th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Thanks for the feedback!

Hard to make specific comments for every point made here, but I will say that we're planning on expanding the range of combat options available for your party members. Some of the past Fig updates have touched on our high-level ideas for combat improvements, and I hope we'll be able to talk in more detail about them in the coming months.

As for art and animation, we're always trying to do more. From what I recall, Demolitions in Wasteland 2 probably used the same "interact" animation as several other skill checks. As we're not a huge-budget game, we only have so many resources available for animation, but we certainly want to keep pushing the personality of your characters and get as many unique animations as we possibly can.

Energy Weapons are something we've also put a lot of time into - we've gone everywhere from full-on redesigns, to smaller reworks or tweaks on what Wasteland 2 did. We'll certainly continue to iterate on them through the alpha and beta development stages.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by undecaf » February 26th, 2018, 12:08 am

sear wrote:
February 25th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Hard to make specific comments for every point made here, but I will say that we're planning on expanding the range of combat options available for your party members. Some of the past Fig updates have touched on our high-level ideas for combat improvements, and I hope we'll be able to talk in more detail about them in the coming months.
Just don’t make combat too heavyhanded. (If not complexity, the grind was already hurting Wasteland 2.) I think it’s often a mistaken notion that as complex as possible - ”go for Jagged Alliance 2, less won’t do” - is better when it comes to RPG combat. It tends to drown the other features and make it hard to get enjoyment out if them when you’re constantly facing long and heavyhanded skirmishes. It’s what happened (to me) with the new Divinity Original Sin games and PoE. Combat is relatively fun, but it overshadows everything else and invades character systems and progression and gameplay focus, and suddenly it’s not that fun anymore.

Complexity is good and desireable, but there’s a limit, it is still supposed to be an RPG and not a full on combat tactical game, no?
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Doni » February 26th, 2018, 3:20 am

undecaf wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 12:08 am
I think it’s often a mistaken notion that as complex as possible - ”go for Jagged Alliance 2, less won’t do” - is better when it comes to RPG combat.
Personally, I love the more tactical and even simulationist approach but overall I think that designs that works best are those that offer the most complexity with the lowest amount of input complexity.

Take the new Xcom2 for example, every soldier have very few abilities (move, shoot, reload, special skill1/2..) but players can combine these abilities in complex ways. They focused on fewer but more unique abilities that can be combined in tactically creative and meaningful ways, along with various conditions and environmental elements that can be exploited to force advantage over our adversary.
Zombra wrote:
February 24th, 2018, 9:21 am
Standing/crouching/prone options would be an obvious way to add an extra dimension to Wasteland combat and visual interest and give it a more military feel for sure.
Sure, but what would be the gameplay benefit? In Xcom2 they used cover system instead of crouch stance (visually your solider auto crouched when in low cover), both of which effected visibility and hit chance. The difference is that cover allowed them to constrain and create more interesting situation through their environment, and avoid the gamy line of fire creep.

I don't see any benefit to adding both, only lessening their effect. Overall IMO the team focus on using more environmental elements (like your vehicle for cover and its turret) is really smart one, and I prefer to see more use of the environment than some extra stance.
Last edited by Doni on February 26th, 2018, 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Grohal » February 26th, 2018, 3:26 am

undecaf wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 12:08 am
...

Complexity is good and desireable, but there’s a limit, it is still supposed to be an RPG and not a full on combat tactical game, no?
The trick is - not giving me 500 options/items I can use in combat when I only need to use 5 to win easy.
Make the battles interesting enough (battlefield, coverstuff, natural blockades/hardships maybe a sudden change of weather/nightfall (oh how I would love to see that day/night circle from Wasteland 1 again). Give me options, but make them count. Punish me if I just do basis attacks with a prolonged fight resulting in more wounds on my side. Let me win those battles by being clever. At least the handmade fights should have things like this. Maybe it is a bit much to use in every random encounter.

The combat in Diviniy is pretty excellent btw (imo of course). I can use combinations of oil/fire, puddles and lightning and likewise stuff. That is exactly the stuff I like. Of course it would be pretty lame if nearly every battlefield had the same boxes of explosives, puddles of water or flammable substances and so on. So there should be varities and it still should be an exception. Even most raiders would be clever enough not to take cover behind a open box filled with blackpowder.
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by sear » February 26th, 2018, 6:16 am

Doni wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 3:20 am
Personally, I love the more tactical and even simulationist approach but overall I think that designs that works best are those that offer the most complexity with the lowest amount of input complexity.

Take the new Xcom2 for example, every soldier have very few abilities (move, shoot, reload, special skill1/2..) but players can combine these abilities in complex ways. They focused on fewer but more unique abilities that can be combined in tactically creative and meaningful ways, along with various conditions and environmental elements that can be exploited to force advantage over our adversary.
This is generally my approach to combat design. In a party-based game, your range of options is often going to be high, and spread across a big group of characters. Too much to do with every individual character tends to get hard to keep track of. The abilities and gameplay decisions available to the player have to be contextually relevant and meaningful, with clear value, and when you put too much of that on single characters, you tend to lose some of that focus and clarity.

Of course, Wasteland isn't XCOM. The non-combat gameplay is a huge component of the game, as is the classless character system, so the number of combinations of skills and abilities you have at their disposal is very high. And the more of those interesting combinations that you are able to discover, the better in my opinion. So while we'd like to keep each character feel like they have a purpose, what that purpose is is very much up to the player.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Lakstoties » February 26th, 2018, 12:50 pm

sear wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 6:16 am
Of course, Wasteland isn't XCOM. The non-combat gameplay is a huge component of the game, as is the classless character system, so the number of combinations of skills and abilities you have at their disposal is very high. And the more of those interesting combinations that you are able to discover, the better in my opinion. So while we'd like to keep each character feel like they have a purpose, what that purpose is is very much up to the player.
Any word on the character system? Maybe some draft designs to share and examine? Nothing like some feedback early to catch issues that jump you later in the process.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by sear » February 26th, 2018, 1:20 pm

Lakstoties wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 12:50 pm
Any word on the character system? Maybe some draft designs to share and examine? Nothing like some feedback early to catch issues that jump you later in the process.
We are building on Wasteland 2's character system. Some things have been added, some things have been changed, and some things have been moved around. I don't think we're quite ready to show everything off - we're pushing towards getting all of our major gameplay features fully implemented right now so we can play with them, find the problems and iterate. :ugeek:

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Drool » February 26th, 2018, 2:44 pm

sear wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 1:20 pm
We are building on Wasteland 2's character system.
Please tell me it's more MSPE and less SPECIAL...
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Woolfe » February 26th, 2018, 3:22 pm

Drool wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 2:44 pm
sear wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 1:20 pm
We are building on Wasteland 2's character system.
Please tell me it's more MSPE and less SPECIAL...
Insert <Forlorn Hope> smiley here.
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Lakstoties » February 26th, 2018, 5:46 pm

Woolfe wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 3:22 pm
Drool wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 2:44 pm
sear wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 1:20 pm
We are building on Wasteland 2's character system.
Please tell me it's more MSPE and less SPECIAL...
Insert <Forlorn Hope> smiley here.
While I don't know about MSPE... I have to say, I'm a bit wary at using anything based on the Wasteland 2 system. To be painfully frank, that thing shitted all the beds in the late game. (And it was a quite nasty even in the mid game.) It might be more trouble and effort to tweak it than to just start clean. Sit down, review a few classic and modern tabletop RPG systems and figure out what the best approach is given the scope of what it is you want to accomplish. Just a warning from experience with personal projects, sometimes the drive to save what is existing can hamstring your efforts to do what's needed.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Doni » February 27th, 2018, 2:00 am

Lakstoties wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 5:46 pm
To be painfully frank, that thing shitted all the beds in the late game. (And it was a quite nasty even in the mid game.)
What do you believe was the problem with the character/party system that led to your experience? And do you have an example of another RPG system that better handled this? (preferably a modern one, because these bring less nostalgia baggage into the discussion)

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Lakstoties » February 27th, 2018, 8:11 am

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 2:00 am
Lakstoties wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 5:46 pm
To be painfully frank, that thing shitted all the beds in the late game. (And it was a quite nasty even in the mid game.)
What do you believe was the problem with the character/party system that led to your experience? And do you have an example of another RPG system that better handled this? (preferably a modern one, because these bring less nostalgia baggage into the discussion)
The main problem I found with the character/party system was the sheer amount inconsistency overall and magic numbers band-aiding inherent flaws in the core.

You had a VERY strange arms race between player characters and enemies that broke immersion A LOT. It was not uncommon to run into enemies that had attack values WAY out of scope to everything leading up to it... And no logical reason apart from the fact the developers just assigned those values to the enemies. Enemies simply didn't follow the same build rules as player characters. So many nasty "Gotcha!" situations that just left you feeling robbed and wronged. Especially painful when you literally have the same weapon as the enemy but their attack values are artificially higher than yours. Also, the weaponry damage numbers just bloat to ridiculous levels. You had pistols that outputted damage values more powerful than all early rifles combined. And the math behind what armor actually did was not apparent, in fact I still don't know the exact calculation for that component. This was NOT a system tested and developed at a tabletop first, because there's no WAY you'd want to do the strange math in it at the tabletop.

Then the skill system was frustrating, because it really felt like you only had 3 useful points in any given skill stretched across 10 units. And the exponential cost made specialization ridiculously cost prohibitive and doing so had to be done at the cost of any defensive capabilities after a point. The higher levels never really got you anything worth the effort.

There were plenty of dump stats that you really didn't have to put much into to be successful in the game. And the way the system tried to address this was a MASSIVE kludge by artificially granting bonuses for putting points in these dump stats. The stats chosen were there to be cutely arranged into an acronym rather than serve system function after a point, and it looks like they tried to backpatch in their functional significance after the fact.

Also, Intelligence -> Skill Points is silly at this point. This is some old historical precedence that is an annoying diehard. I know plenty of people that aren't bright but are very skilled. This just made Intelligence the win stat for the game, since you could get enough skill points to build up your combat skills to override bad stat arrangement.

Overall, it was a system that was easy to game and very easy to create characters that just wouldn't work in the mid to late game. There was really only one "right" want to make characters to be effective in the game. I tested this theory by hacking the save game right before the last fight, shifted numbers around, and it made a NIGHT and DAY difference in the difficulty. It was obscene how much of a difference it made.


As for another RPG system that better handles all this, HERE. I made it, it works, it's Creative commons licensed. Stats factor heavily in skills, each point in a skill matters, skill trees that aren't nightmares, classless/levelless with modular progression, handles guns of all types, uses action points, math works at the tabletop, and you can build both players, NPCs, and enemies with the same rules. Maybe not the best example I could put up on the table, but I think the core concepts demonstrates that there are better routes to consider.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Zombra » February 27th, 2018, 10:39 am

Lakstoties wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 8:11 am
Also, Intelligence -> Skill Points is silly at this point. This is some old historical precedence that is an annoying diehard. I know plenty of people that aren't bright but are very skilled.
Eh. It is fine to have a stat that controls how many skill points you get. If this doesn't map 1:1 with the dictionary definition of intelligence, it's okay. There's a difference between real-world intelligence and the Intelligence stat in a game. Just call it "stat #6" instead of Intelligence. Problem solved.
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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Lakstoties » February 27th, 2018, 12:06 pm

Zombra wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 10:39 am
Lakstoties wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 8:11 am
Also, Intelligence -> Skill Points is silly at this point. This is some old historical precedence that is an annoying diehard. I know plenty of people that aren't bright but are very skilled.
Eh. It is fine to have a stat that controls how many skill points you get. If this doesn't map 1:1 with the dictionary definition of intelligence, it's okay. There's a difference between real-world intelligence and the Intelligence stat in a game. Just call it "stat #6" instead of Intelligence. Problem solved.
I'd still argue against a stat that just grants skill points. Just give all characters the same amount of skill points each level and have the value you get for each skill bump based on the contributing stat for that skill.

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Re: Don't do the same mistake like in W2DC

Post by Drool » February 27th, 2018, 2:51 pm

Lakstoties wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 5:46 pm
While I don't know about MSPE...
Just play the original.

One of the nice things was that Attributes were tied to skills, the game just didn't announce it from the rooftops. But you'll notice it right quick when comparing a rifleman with low Dexterity to one with high Dexterity, even if their skills are identical. There was also a nice mix of skill checks and attribute checks.
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