The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

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The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 23rd, 2016, 8:29 am

Lots of people seem to be confused by the Tides including myself.
So let's talk about these Tides and what they do!!!!

So I'm pretty sure the Tides are just Chakras poorly disguised right? The only real difference that I've noticed is that Chakras are supposed to be aligned and the tides don't need to be? After walking inside the 5th eye bar I knew that someone was going through a eastern philosophy phase. Anyway, these Tides simply change based on the dialogue choices you make and work like a complicated alignment system. Instead of just having good and bad you got 5 different ways to go and possibly several gradients in between? So its basically a reputation as much as its anything else. You might get a "reputation" as a wise and passionate (blue&red=magenta?) person or as a compassionate and just (indigo&gold= poop colors?) person.

Here is a few questions I'm curious about:
1. How similar are the tides to Chakras? (notice anything else that I didn't?)
2. If you align all your tides do you get something special? (Become the Buddha and transcend the Bloom and Sorrow of existence?) ;)
3. How many variants of the tides do you think will exist? (red&blue; gold, red, and sliver; just indigo; all equally balanced)
4. How many unique playthroughs/legacies will this create? (my guess was 5x5=25..or 5*4*3*2*1 = 120....I suck at math) :(
5. What else have you noticed about the Tides?

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by kilobug » March 23rd, 2016, 10:03 am

anonymous6059 wrote:So I'm pretty sure the Tides are just Chakras poorly disguised right?
I don't know much about Chakras - but from what you linked below, it's significantly different, there are 5 tides but 7 chakras, the Silver and Indigo Tides don't feel much to match with any Chakras, "proactivity" Chakra doesn't seem to correspond to any Tide, ... Tide are a sort of alignment system, so of course you'll find similarilities with any other similar systems, but the similarity stops here to me.
anonymous6059 wrote:Anyway, these Tides simply change based on the dialogue choices you make and work like a complicated alignment system. Instead of just having good and bad you got 5 different ways to go and possibly several gradients in between?
Well, yes and no. Yes, the Tides are a 5-axis alignment system, like you had a 2-axis alignment system (Chaos-Law/Good-Evil) in PST (and in AD&D). But there are differences too, first that Tides don't have the huge morale connotation of "good/evil", and second that Tides only judge actions (which include what you say) but not intent, unlike most alignment systems.
anonymous6059 wrote: So its basically a reputation as much as its anything else. You might get a "reputation" as a wise and passionate (blue&red=magenta?) person or as a compassionate and just (indigo&gold= poop colors?) person.
Yes, it's very similar to a reputation, except that it also happens if there are no witness (which is usually true in video games due to engine limitations, but this time for lore reasons).
anonymous6059 wrote:1. How similar are the tides to Chakras? (notice anything else that I didn't?)
As I said above, they don't seem very similar apart from what you could expect from two systems that are variations over "alignment systems".
anonymous6059 wrote:2. If you align all your tides do you get something special? (Become the Buddha and transcend the Bloom and Sorrow of existence?) ;)

3. How many variants of the tides do you think will exist? (red&blue; gold, red, and sliver; just indigo; all equally balanced)
In TTON, the only thing that matters is strong a Tide is compared to others, not their absolute value. So having all the Tides at a high value is like having none at a high value. And the game will recognize 3 kind of cases for your "Legacy" : 1. One Tide is significantly stronger than all the others ("pure color"). 2. Two Tides are significantly stronger than the three remaining ones ("dual color"). 3. Everything else ("gray").

Which makes a total of 16 possible variations : 5 pure color of class 1, 10 mixed colors (5*4/2) of class 2 and the 1 of class 3.
anonymous6059 wrote:4. How many unique playthroughs/legacies will this create? (my guess was 5x5=25..or 5*4*3*2*1 = 120....I suck at math) :(
16 unique legacies, but much more unique playthroughs. Even if you make a "pure Indigo" playthrough, it'll be a different kind of game if you do it with a "Nano who Bears a Halo of Fire" and with a "Jack who Branishes a Silver Tongue". Sure some character build will fit better with some Tides than some others, but there are still many open variations.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 23rd, 2016, 1:58 pm

kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:So I'm pretty sure the Tides are just Chakras poorly disguised right?
I don't know much about Chakras - but from what you linked below, it's significantly different, there are 5 tides but 7 chakras, the Silver and Indigo Tides don't feel much to match with any Chakras, "proactivity" Chakra doesn't seem to correspond to any Tide, ... Tide are a sort of alignment system, so of course you'll find similarilities with any other similar systems, but the similarity stops here to me.
I still felt like there were way too many references too Eastern philosophical ideas to be coincidence. I'm not saying its a direct rip off of the whole Chakra energy thing but its based off it. ***This is the idiots version of Chakras*** Chakras are basically different energies in the body that need to be in alignment to stay healthy. They come in different colors and each one involves specific emotions. When you have a lot of one Chakra and not another it could cause all kinds of health issues. The tides are pretty similar to this if you ask me. They are Energies too and how they are aligned affects your reputation. Got to much Red tide and your too passionate. Got to much Sacrum Chakra and your feeling overly passionate. Other references exist too. The 5th eye bar is a reference to the 3rd eye chakra. Inside you find a fellow named Dharma and Dharma is key concept with multiple meanings in the Indian religions. I know about this junk cause when I was a kid I went through one of those new age fades myself sadly :roll:
kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:2. If you align all your tides do you get something special? (Become the Buddha and transcend the Bloom and Sorrow of existence?) ;)
3. How many variants of the tides do you think will exist? (red&blue; gold, red, and sliver; just indigo; all equally balanced)
In TTON, the only thing that matters is strong a Tide is compared to others, not their absolute value. So having all the Tides at a high value is like having none at a high value. And the game will recognize 3 kind of cases for your "Legacy" : 1. One Tide is significantly stronger than all the others ("pure color"). 2. Two Tides are significantly stronger than the three remaining ones ("dual color"). 3. Everything else ("gray").

Which makes a total of 16 possible variations : 5 pure color of class 1, 10 mixed colors (5*4/2) of class 2 and the 1 of class 3.
Thank you very much for explaining this part to me! I was seriously drawing pentagons trying to solve this earlier.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by dorkboy » March 23rd, 2016, 4:08 pm

The tides are associated with specific colours. If they were each identified by a specific symbol instead then the immediate comparison might have been alchemy.
Dharma is a bit overt, though.
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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 23rd, 2016, 6:04 pm

dorkboy wrote:The tides are associated with specific colours. If they were each identified by a specific symbol instead then the immediate comparison might have been alchemy.
Dharma is a bit overt, though.
Sure they are associated with colors and so are the Chakras. The Brow Chakras is called the Indigo Chakra! The Tides are "forces" aka energies in the PCs body just like Chakras. I'll admit that Chakras are a bit cooler cause they have mandalas and weird Sanskrit names while the Tides are stuck with boring colors only, but they are still very similar. At least that's what I'm sticking with until someone proves me wrong.

Anyway, I'm not saying that its a bad idea or that I don't like the Tides. I'm just a little jealous that I didn't come up with something like this myself. So far the Tide system looks like it will be pretty brilliant. I'm just hoping to provoke someone (Mr. McComb) into admitting he's got a serious thing for Indian Religions. ;)

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 24th, 2016, 8:12 am

Oh but I almost forgot to add another wonderful idea that I had. I say that Inxile's developers just fully embrace the whole chakra thing completely. Don't beat around the bush with it. Its like 2000+ years old so I'm pretty sure no one's going to care. Here are a few things I do to make the Tide system more interesting and comprehensible at the same time.

1. Add more detail to the Tide system. Come up with some neat mandala symbols to represent the tides and give them more interesting names. I mean come on!!! Red tide is not a very good name guys. I'd of called it the sanguinem Tide (I literally just came up with that in 1 minute, latin for blood btw) and add some more obscure meanings to make it seem like it has some depth and real meaning. Many of the ideas in TToN just seem so two dimensional to me.

2. Give the game a separate screen that shows something like in the diagram below, a diagram of a body with various symbols and colors corresponding with the tides. That way you can see what tides are influencing the PC and what they mean and do to you. Just like how you have a journal and inventory screen you should have a Tides screen. This way you can decide to try and adjust it if you wished. ***If you don't want the players to really know too much about what tides are affecting the world then don't make it obvious. You could just add a gradation (is that a word?) affect that shows generally what color you are... like an aura. If your dominantly a red tide then just make the diagram show a red aura.

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3. I know its going to be too late to add this one but I think it would be interesting. I'd have it where it would be extremely difficult to keep all the tides balanced through the game, but if you really played every dialogue just right you'd get a special transcendental legacy. 5 legacies that are pure colors, 10 mixed colors, and 1 pure white legacy. What exactly that would be I dunno, but it should be near impossible to attain... like enlightenment I guess. ;)
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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by kilobug » March 24th, 2016, 9:48 am

anonymous6059 wrote:I say that Inxile's developers just fully embrace the whole chakra thing completely. Don't beat around the bush with it. Its like 2000+ years old so I'm pretty sure no one's going to care. Here are a few things I do to make the Tide system more interesting and comprehensible at the same time.
Wouldn't work for at least 3 reasons :

1. The Nine World is supposed to be alien, different, weird - not to retake and copy-paste classical Earth mythology and religions, that would totally defeat the point.

2. It's way too late in game developpment/conception to switch from 5 to 7 Tides nor change the "nature" of Tides.

3. The Chakras seem much less suitable to be used as a way to "judge" the actions of a player of a RPG, it's much more fuzzy with concepts like "philosophy", "wisdom", "sprirituality" which, action-wise, pretty much intersect to being the current "blue" Tide, and others which are very much limited "fear" is pretty much a purely negative thing, while Tides are supposed to be much more balanced and wide.
anonymous6059 wrote:Red tide is not a very good name guys. I'd of called it the sanguinem Tide (I literally just came up with that in 1 minute, latin for blood btw)
Depends what you want of a name - it to sound weird and cute, or it to instantly evoke what it is about and be easy to remember (and to identify during the game). Color-based names might not be cute, but they are easy to remember, and "red" does pretty well associate with "emotion", "passion", "action", "zeal", both in its positive and negative aspects.
anonymous6059 wrote: 2. Give the game a separate screen that shows something like in the diagram below, a diagram of a body with various symbols and colors corresponding with the tides. [...] If your dominantly a red tide then just make the diagram show a red aura.
I would like an in-game of a Tide aura, if it has a lore explaination (like a Numenera device that displays your Tide aura when you use it), but the Chakra link with body parts is completly off-topic and out of settings IMHO.
anonymous6059 wrote:I'd have it where it would be extremely difficult to keep all the tides balanced through the game, but if you really played every dialogue just right you'd get a special transcendental legacy.
Part of a Torment game, and especially of TTON, is that there isn't a "right" and "wrong" way to solve the game. There is no "right" or "wrong" answers to "What can change the nature of a man ?" question. The game makes you give your own answer, and they are all equally right. The same goes here - sure there might be ways to solve quests that reward more, or feel more successful than others, but overall the game shouldn't have a "win" mode if you select the right Tide or combination of Tides. Doing a "gray" (mixed Tides) walkthrough shouldn't be better or worse than doing a "pure Red" walkthrough.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 24th, 2016, 11:43 am

kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I say that Inxile's developers just fully embrace the whole chakra thing completely. Don't beat around the bush with it. Its like 2000+ years old so I'm pretty sure no one's going to care. Here are a few things I do to make the Tide system more interesting and comprehensible at the same time.
Wouldn't work for at least 3 reasons :

1. The Nine World is supposed to be alien, different, weird - not to retake and copy-paste classical Earth mythology and religions, that would totally defeat the point.

2. It's way too late in game developpment/conception to switch from 5 to 7 Tides nor change the "nature" of Tides.

3. The Chakras seem much less suitable to be used as a way to "judge" the actions of a player of a RPG, it's much more fuzzy with concepts like "philosophy", "wisdom", "sprirituality" which, action-wise, pretty much intersect to being the current "blue" Tide, and others which are very much limited "fear" is pretty much a purely negative thing, while Tides are supposed to be much more balanced and wide.
Okay, I didn't explain what I was saying very well. I agree that I don't want any direct magical, spiritual, or mystic elements in the game and directly using Chakras would be out of setting. Here let me give an example of what I'd do: The Tides are "Ancient" alien energies from a prior world that would work more or less like animal magnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_magnetism and it would be made up of some substance or other. (This is all pretty much how the game seems to be already) Certain devices could detect it and influence it as well. It would be something that only exist in the Castoffs of the Changing God. At most they could elude to something like an ancient Chakra system that way the Tides could have more lore. I'm mostly just trying to find a way to make the Tides seem more realistic and less 2 dimensional to me. Maybe the Chakras are just nano-machines from another dimension or whatever else you want to come up with. I'm just saying that the system could do with a bit more lore and explanation.
kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote: 2. Give the game a separate screen that shows something like in the diagram below, a diagram of a body with various symbols and colors corresponding with the tides. [...] If your dominantly a red tide then just make the diagram show a red aura.
I would like an in-game of a Tide aura, if it has a lore explaination (like a Numenera device that displays your Tide aura when you use it), but the Chakra link with body parts is completly off-topic and out of settings IMHO.
Well that's what I'm saying or that's what I meant to say. Treat it kind of like animal magnetism, but not literally. Maybe its more of a Biomagnetism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnetism I dunno. Let there be weird Numenera that can find them, use them, or even change them. For instance, one Numenera could cause healing if the PC has a lot of Red Tide. The Tides are already concentratable from what I seen of the tutorial, those giant colored tubes from the beginning.
kilobug wrote:
anonymous6059 wrote:I'd have it where it would be extremely difficult to keep all the tides balanced through the game, but if you really played every dialogue just right you'd get a special transcendental legacy.
Part of a Torment game, and especially of TTON, is that there isn't a "right" and "wrong" way to solve the game. There is no "right" or "wrong" answers to "What can change the nature of a man ?" question. The game makes you give your own answer, and they are all equally right. The same goes here - sure there might be ways to solve quests that reward more, or feel more successful than others, but overall the game shouldn't have a "win" mode if you select the right Tide or combination of Tides. Doing a "gray" (mixed Tides) walkthrough shouldn't be better or worse than doing a "pure Red" walkthrough.
I'm not saying that the "white" balanced legacy would need to be better or worse than any of the other. I'm just saying that they could play on the whole Enlightenment thing (in a non-spiritual way). The Fact that the PC never lets any tide control him should mean something. I think it should loosely parallel transcendence but not in a spiritual way. Just in a "The pc has mastered the power of the Tides" kind of way. I want all the choices to be equally valid. The fact that you choose to not let any emotions or tides control you just seems like a good opportunity to make the Tides more interesting. I do like the idea of some paths being more difficult then others though. Just because no path is better or worse doesn't mean all are as easy to travel. Some paths are more difficult to attain, like climbing Mount Everest or or taking a helicopter to the top. The more unnatural a path is the more difficult it would be to see to the end. Example, killing everyone you can.... not killing anyone... those are paths that only a small number of people would take so I think they should have very unique legacies. I guess I'm saying that if you work extra hard to complete the game in a certain way you should be rewarded, but when its all over all paths ultimately lead to the same place....Rome right? :D
Last edited by anonymous6059 on March 24th, 2016, 6:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » March 24th, 2016, 1:10 pm

Interesting side thought:
I wonder if the supplement for this game will be similar to the Amber rpg. I don't mean the ruleset. What I mean is I wonder if you'll play as a castoff. As one of the many castoffs you'd be stronger then most NPCs you'd encounter. So the only real threat would come from your brothers and sisters, the other shells. Something like that would remind me of the Amber RPG and I think a lot of people would like to see something like that. The Supplement could also have a great deal to do with the Tides and in aligning them. Since only shells need and worry about the Tides it wouldn't ruin anything if your playing Numenera without the supplement.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by Drool » March 25th, 2016, 12:13 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:Oh but I almost forgot to add another wonderful idea that I had. I say that Inxile's developers just fully embrace the whole chakra thing completely.
...and throw their source material and one of their developers under the bus? Remember, Tides of Numenera is a thing that's separate from this video game.
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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by MReed » March 25th, 2016, 2:43 pm

anonymous6059 wrote:Interesting side thought:
I wonder if the supplement for this game will be similar to the Amber rpg. I don't mean the ruleset. What I mean is I wonder if you'll play as a castoff. As one of the many castoffs you'd be stronger then most NPCs you'd encounter. So the only real threat would come from your brothers and sisters, the other shells. Something like that would remind me of the Amber RPG and I think a lot of people would like to see something like that. The Supplement could also have a great deal to do with the Tides and in aligning them. Since only shells need and worry about the Tides it wouldn't ruin anything if your playing Numenera without the supplement.

Well, based on the game so far, castoffs aren't any stronger than any other yahoo wandering around, so... No, I don't think this would be the case. Individual castoffs probably /are/ unusually strong, but there isn't any indication that this would be an intrinsic trait.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by Adam Heine » June 8th, 2016, 5:50 am

The Tides were not inspired by the chakras but rather by looking the legacies of what we remember people for and trying to categorize them (and then some other constraints on top of that, for example we decided we wanted five rather than four so we wouldn't end up with any two Tides being diametrically opposed).

Although it is very interesting to look at the similarities between the Tides and the chakras. Considering the Tides were designed independently, there's a lot of overlap there.
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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by anonymous6059 » June 8th, 2016, 3:49 pm

Adam Heine wrote:The Tides were not inspired by the chakras but rather by looking the legacies of what we remember people for and trying to categorize them (and then some other constraints on top of that, for example we decided we wanted five rather than four so we wouldn't end up with any two Tides being diametrically opposed).
This confuses me. I understand that the tides are basically a more realistic version of a alignment system, but it is still based off a person's core emotions is it not? While I do understand your reasoning in having 5 tides I don't see how they are your legacy. I thought that the tides you pick direct you towards specific legacies. I'm seeing it the other way around. The Legacies don't make the tides, but the tides make the legacy. Is this a wrong way to view it? If the tides are your legacy would that mean that the game presumes determinism? That the PC is simply fulfilling his or her destiny?

For instance, in the Gold novella Ama is being pulled and pushed by forces outside herself. Was the Gold tide within her or was it only inside the Urlimnion. I specifically recall her saying that her body was being drawn, pulled to do certain things. This lead me to believe that the Castoffs have a greater connection to the tides.

This is very interesting. You've got me really wondering about it now. Maybe the tides are like your genetic predisposition to particular behaviors. Someone who is naturally higher in the red tide is more willing to move to action. Someone who is born with more gold is willing to sacrifice themselves. That would seem to indicate that all our actions are basically predetermined and we are simply doing what was determined by our genetic makeup.

You've got my gears turning. I think you left this hint for me on purpose. ;)

This still doesn't solve the question of why the Castoffs are so concerned with the tides. They seem to have basically an obsession with the tides. Why would that be if they aren't trying to directly manipulate the tides, like you would Chakras. Is it to understand their destiny or perhaps related to the Sorrow.... Dang it!! I was finally off this subject and now you've got me trying to solve this all over again.

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Re: The Tides are ▓▒▓▓░

Post by Adam Heine » June 8th, 2016, 5:02 pm

Inspiration-wise, it went kind of like this. I listed as many people as I could think of who were famous enough to be remembered. People like Mother Teresa, Hitler, Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Socrates, Alexander the Great, etc. I took this list of people and tried to categorize what each was remembered for -- their legacy. In my initial categorization, I think I came up with four general categories that covered everyone on my list: a focus on self, a focus on others, a focus on knowledge, and a focus on action. That was the first seed that (after a lot of discussion and iteration) eventually birthed the five Tides.

In-game, it works a little differently. Some people are affected by certain Tides and so susceptible to being influenced by certain types of actions or (in the case of castoffs) by people who are also dominant in those Tides. The Tides a given person is affected by matches their character -- who they are and what they do. It's not entirely destiny, but it could feel like it to someone who is unaware of the Tides.

Other people (most notably castoffs) are attuned to the Tides and can actually use them in different ways. Castoffs are *also* affected, meaning they can sometimes be influenced as well, but castoffs are generally more self-aware of the Tides in this sense (though not always).

So castoffs do have a greater connection to the Tides. Why that is is explored some in the game (as is Ama and her own secrets, though you might have to hunt a bit for that information :) ).
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