Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 4:15 pm

PizzaSHARK wrote:Charge! literally just gives +0.5 Combat Speed for a single turn. It's not affected by any modifiers, it's just a straight +0.5.
Well, sure, but...
I misspoke. What else, other than Tough Skin and armor, modifies combat speed for the worse in general? Charge! sounds genuinely useful for getting people into position in that first round regardless of all other factors.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 16th, 2015, 4:41 pm

Brittle Bones is also a stiff combat speed penalty in exchange for +2 AP.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 16th, 2015, 4:56 pm

Yeah. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you get Brittle Bones on any melee character, you are being weird.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by macksting » October 16th, 2015, 5:44 pm

That is, however, a valuable and appreciated datum. While I doubt it's well suited to a melee character, the idea of trying to build around this amuses me.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 16th, 2015, 7:52 pm

Zombra wrote:Yeah. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you get Brittle Bones on any melee character, you are being weird.
Depends on how far you can move in those 2 bonus AP compared to losing the combat speed. CS with 3 Speed is 2.0, so 1.4 adjusted. Is AP spent on movement just combat speed = tiles crossed? If so, you can move 2.8 tiles with those 2 AP... meaning you're actually faster with Brittle Bones than without, and you also have the 2 AP for other things.

The difference would be it would take you 2 AP to move 2 tiles, while the guy with 2.0 CS only spends 1 AP to move 2 tiles, meaning the baseline guy is more efficient with his movement AP, which is probably more important for melee characters than ranged characters. Brittle Bones is definitely a Sniper quirk if it favors any particular playstyle.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 8:54 pm

So really, AoO's aren't super terrible if you have the mechanics in place to get your dude to the front line.

After all, an enemy can't escape without an AoO, and if you can stay close you essentially get a free attack on a fleeing enemy. Chase down, hit, watch them run, hit 2x, repeat till dead.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by SagaDC » October 16th, 2015, 8:58 pm

What really bothers me about the AoO is that it seems to mess with the normal Ambush mechanic. Since Chisel comes with "Glancing Blow" as one of his preset perks, I've been experimenting with it a bit. While I can set him on Ambush mode, he simply doesn't ambush targets, and instead waits for them to move away again so he can make AoO attacks instead.

I'd find it potentially useful if I could still also use the normal Ambush mechanic. But if it's a trade-off, where I have to choose one or the other, then I'm never going to waste perk slots on the AoO perks.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Bullet2head » October 16th, 2015, 9:00 pm

SagaDC wrote:What really bothers me about the AoO is that it seems to mess with the normal Ambush mechanic. Since Chisel comes with "Glancing Blow" as one of his preset perks, I've been experimenting with it a bit. While I can set him on Ambush mode, he simply doesn't ambush targets, and instead waits for them to move away again so he can make AoO attacks instead.

I'd find it potentially useful if I could still also use the normal Ambush mechanic. But if it's a trade-off, where I have to choose one or the other, then I'm never going to waste perk slots on the AoO perks.
I have the exact same freaking problem. It's very unwelcome, frankly. I started off the run with the idea I sent my guy forward, set an ambush, and was expecting a 3 punch style. 1 on ambush, 2-3 on turn, 3 on AoO. But ambush just doesn't work anymore. Then again I'm getting 250 damage crits at level 23 with my blunt user (blaze it), so maybe 750 damage in a turn might be OP.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 16th, 2015, 9:26 pm

SagaDC wrote:What really bothers me about the AoO is that it seems to mess with the normal Ambush mechanic. Since Chisel comes with "Glancing Blow" as one of his preset perks, I've been experimenting with it a bit. While I can set him on Ambush mode, he simply doesn't ambush targets, and instead waits for them to move away again so he can make AoO attacks instead.

I'd find it potentially useful if I could still also use the normal Ambush mechanic. But if it's a trade-off, where I have to choose one or the other, then I'm never going to waste perk slots on the AoO perks.
FWIW it means you can just end turn early to reserve AP for next turn instead of selecting Ambush and not carrying any AP over.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 17th, 2015, 1:59 am

My Knowledge Skill ratings are posted.

One piece of commentary I'll add now: it strikes me pretty weird that Handyman only requires one skill at level 3, while Master Thief requires two skills at level 10. I understand that Mech Repair has a very different role in looting than Lockpicking or Safecracking, but it still seems strange that they are SO FAR APART requirements-wise. I guess I'm not really complaining though and I look forward to taking both Perks for my skill monkey.

Also, why are Quick Reflexes and Ghost linked to Alarm Disarm? I guess I kind of see where they're going with it, since Alarm Disarm is the closest thing to an actual stealth-related-by-2nd-cousin skill, but come on, just make them "Unskilled" Perks. If you need a new Perk for Alarm Disarm, give it one that eliminates crit failures like some other skills have.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by PizzaSHARK » October 17th, 2015, 11:38 am

Junk Diver is pretty awesome. You find junk constantly and the bonus junk really adds up fast. Amusingly, it's a better economic perk than the Bartering perks, at least because it only requires 2 ranks in a somewhat esoteric skill instead of like 7 ranks in a nearly completely worthless skill.

It's also called the luck of the hobo, which is fun.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Drool » October 17th, 2015, 12:44 pm

Zombra wrote:Yeah. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you get Brittle Bones on any melee character, you are being weird.
Man, now I wish I'd done that instead of... um... whatever the hell it was I picked.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Drool » October 17th, 2015, 12:52 pm

While I'm at it...
Zombra wrote:Barter
Pawner / +20% more Scrap from selling junk items
Loose Change / +10% chance of bonus Scrap when looting (party-wide)
"PLEASE spend points on Barter. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!"
Silver-Tongued / +5% discount on all purchases
"Boy, Barter sure is useless, isn't it?"
World Traveler / All hidden caches and shrines revealed
This perk could also be called "New Game+ Achievo Hunter".
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by SagaDC » October 17th, 2015, 12:58 pm

Well, to be fair, Pawner and Junk Diver synergize pretty well with each other. And it only costs 6sp to raise Barter high enough to unlock the Pawner perk. Loose Change is garbage, though.

Silver-Tongued is goofy, because it's basically a perk that's worth FIVE RANKS worth of Barter. That's insane. As if the Barter skill weren't already trivial enough, now you have a perk that makes it even more trivial in comparison.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 17th, 2015, 1:08 pm

Drool wrote:
Zombra wrote:Yeah. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if you get Brittle Bones on any melee character, you are being weird.
Man, now I wish I'd done that instead of... um... whatever the hell it was I picked.
Ha! Yeah. I was planning to take Heavy Handed for my melee guy, but then I saw Tough Skin (which also slows movement a lot) and thought, "That looks ... suboptimal." A moment's reflection revealed that it was more important conceptually for him to be an unstoppable juggernaut than to actually run around killing stuff. It wasn't the game-effective choice, but it was the right choice. 8-)
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Drool » October 17th, 2015, 1:17 pm

SagaDC wrote:Silver-Tongued is goofy, because it's basically a perk that's worth FIVE RANKS worth of Barter. That's insane. As if the Barter skill weren't already trivial enough, now you have a perk that makes it even more trivial in comparison.
Especially since you'll be likely raising Ass skills as you go, that perk's just going to be sitting there. One perk vs what? A dozen skill points? Yes please.
Zombra wrote:Ha! Yeah. I was planning to take Heavy Handed for my melee guy, but then I saw Tough Skin (which also slows movement a lot) and thought, "That looks ... suboptimal." A moment's reflection revealed that it was more important conceptually for him to be an unstoppable juggernaut than to actually run around killing stuff. It wasn't the game-effective choice, but it was the right choice. 8-)
I think I took Heavy Handed, but he's my massive smasher of things, and I was willing to lose the crits since I went blunt anyway. But if you want to talk right choices, my talky character took Unlucky :D

And my Doctor took Opportunist :lol:
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 17th, 2015, 1:22 pm

SagaDC wrote:Silver-Tongued is goofy, because it's basically a perk that's worth FIVE RANKS worth of Barter.
2½, but it's still a good point.
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by SagaDC » October 17th, 2015, 1:46 pm

Zombra wrote:
SagaDC wrote:Silver-Tongued is goofy, because it's basically a perk that's worth FIVE RANKS worth of Barter.
2½, but it's still a good point.
Ah, true, it doesn't increase the value of the items you sell. That's a fair point.

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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by Zombra » October 17th, 2015, 6:15 pm

My General Skill ratings are published. Thanks for joining me in this thread, friends :)
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Re: Zombra's Perk Pageant (with Optional Dissection and Suggestions)

Post by ClashFan » October 17th, 2015, 10:04 pm

Wonderful thread! Perks are the best part of the DC for me, which falls short in some other ways. But, like you guys show, they vary tremendously in usefulness.
Last edited by ClashFan on October 18th, 2015, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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