What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

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Fredward
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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Fredward » May 13th, 2015, 1:28 am

drfruitloop wrote:artistic merit
Isn't that, at the end of the day, a bit of an oxymoron? Merit is being good, deserving of a reward yeah? But art is subjective isn't it? The values assigned, what makes something 'good' or 'bad' aren't set in stone. I mean they might be if you're functioning in the system but if you trace it to wherever it goes it comes down to a bunch of people, fallible, subjective people saying XYZ is 'worthy' of something. Why are they right? Because they have a lot of experience? Because they held opinions that aligned with a lot of other people's? Because they said so? It's like answering a test paper you constructed.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by drfruitloop » May 13th, 2015, 2:41 am

Fredward wrote:
drfruitloop wrote:artistic merit
Isn't that, at the end of the day, a bit of an oxymoron? Merit is being good, deserving of a reward yeah? But art is subjective isn't it? The values assigned, what makes something 'good' or 'bad' aren't set in stone. I mean they might be if you're functioning in the system but if you trace it to wherever it goes it comes down to a bunch of people, fallible, subjective people saying XYZ is 'worthy' of something. Why are they right? Because they have a lot of experience? Because they held opinions that aligned with a lot of other people's? Because they said so? It's like answering a test paper you constructed.
To quote Wikipedia: "Artistic merit is a term that is used in relation to cultural products when referring to the judgment of their perceived quality or value as works of art."

It is just the common and accepted term for saying that you believe something to have succeeded in some way artistically and has value as a work of art. I didn't make it up out of whole cloth.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Lightzy » May 13th, 2015, 5:12 am

Works of art are priced and valued by those who can truly price and value them.
But it's kind of like gold. It is quite useless, but the environment thinks it valuable, and so we think it valuable and would be very happy to find some, and even go as far as to make sure that our gold jewelery are real gold and not fake, as if it makes a difference :)

Can't escape the influence of the environment.
Imagine if the environment collectively decided to make "connection between people" valuable, and people who know how to create connections between people as valuable people, instead of those who have a hoard of gold. We'd have good lives then.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by shaigunjoe » May 13th, 2015, 7:12 am

Lightzy wrote:shaigunjoe, I think you misunderstand and I do have at least some idea what I'm talking about. The Asch study is a study of peer pressure, but it never puts the man under direct pressure. That is the whole idea of the study - to see if an environment, whatever it is, indirectly pressures and changes the behavior AND EVEN THE PERCEPTION of a person and to what extent.
Even to the researchers it is not clear if there is pressure involved or not until the experiment succeeds or fails. Only after it succeeds can you say "oh, I suppose they pressured him into it", although they didn't, directly. He simply changed to conform.
BTW, it was found in the study that the person gradually moved through stages of saying the wrong thing just to conform, to finally completely believing the group and disbelieving his own eyes. His very perceptions became warped by the group. So, again, no 'critical faculties'.
You have no idea, you are trying to slightly shift your argument each time to make it seem like it, but you do not. For instance, first you say:
The Asch study never puts one in pressure to conform.
And now you say:
The Asch study is a study of peer pressure
You then make a claim that he uses indirect pressure instead of direct. So you clearly did not even get into the nuances of the experiment. The author makes no distinction because he actually uses both. In fact, Asch came to the conclusion that:

"We consider it of significance that the majority achieves its most pronounced effect when it acts most painlessly."

Furthermore, in his conclusion he states:

"Despite the stress of the given conditions, a substantial proportion of individuals retained their independence throughout."

And:
"At the same time, a substantial minority yielded, modifying their judgements in accordance with the majority."

Not a substantial majority, but a minority. This is a far cry from anything you described.
indirectly pressures and changes the behavior AND EVEN THE PERCEPTION of a person and to what extent
BTW, it was found in the study that the person gradually moved through stages of saying the wrong thing just to conform, to finally completely believing the group and disbelieving his own eyes. His very perceptions became warped by the group. So, again, no 'critical faculties'.
Umm, reference? It sounds like what you are talking about is a distortion of perception, and even in the title of the paper it says distortion of judgement. Wikipedia states that the number of people who experienced distortion of perception were small, but give no source, so if you have one, please share.

Finally:
That is the whole idea of the study - to see if an environment, whatever it is,
No! No no no no. Wow, how did you jump to this conclusion? That was not the whole idea of the study. I don't think any legitimate scientist would get away with not having to concisely define what the environment is in any trial. Then go on and say that the result is the same for any environment. His control and variables were clearly stated.
In any case the point was that whatever you're exposed to affects you, even if you're think you're totally above such things and are critical and observant. The hubris is to think you CAN be critical and observant, unchanged by the environment. This is what all these studies show in a nutshell.
No it isn't. In fact, at least the Asch experiments showed otherwise. The more confidence you have in yourself, the less likely you were to conform.
That is why I said I never go to bad examples to learn how to do something well. If I want to learn how to do something well, I take good examples where it is done well, and remove myself from bad examples which will affect my standards badly.
You are free to believe what ever you want, but don't go around saying your belief has the backing of peer reviewed research, it does not. In fact, you sound more like a religious fanatic misinterpreting text to suit your agenda.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Lightzy » May 13th, 2015, 11:31 pm

Shaig, you are the one trying to fanatically accuse me of being something while missing the argument, I am not critical of you, but of your argument.
The Asch study is a study of peer pressure, but no direct pressure happens. Nobody tells the tested that he must do something else or even suggests he is incorrect. He basically imagines the pressure, because it acts on his desire to conform.
Watch this, for more about warped perception in the Asch experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrNIuFrso8I

But poor little me, I didn't know I would have to face such amazing scientist people here who will so boldly and masterfully debunk my arguments, so I will add more science, just to make sure nobody has "that one thing to hang on to in order to keep arguing":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The milgram experiment, where he wanted to figure out just how a whole nation (germany) could become bloodthirsty barbarians and execute millions and millions of people (result: influence of the environment)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjP22DpYYh8
The burning room conformity experiment, where people stay in a "burning" room because nobody else gets up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZwfNs1pqG0
Philip Zimbardo's Standford experiment,
Where in the span of a couple of days, he turns completely normal people into violent, murderous psychopaths by using the power of the environment. The people themselves then go on interviews and remark how it was not them, how the environment turned them into something they didn't recognize at all.

Group comformity experiment, where people do not help a wounded person because nobody else does, and do if someone else does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsPfbup0ac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U-tOghblfE
And the most important, the nikolas christakis study about social networks, a statistical survey that went on for like a hundred years, which showed clearly that your environment shapes you completely, in both mind and body.


There are more. want more?

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by drfruitloop » May 14th, 2015, 1:21 am

Lightzy wrote:Shaig, you are the one trying to fanatically accuse me of being something while missing the argument, I am not critical of you, but of your argument
......
There are more. want more?
Lightzy, the title (and purpose) of this thread is "What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?" If you believe this to be impossible then please stop posting, your initial comments were enough to convey your opinion on the subject. If you wish to discuss your insights into the human condition and how videogame development relates to genocide and police brutality then start your own thread, and keep discussion here to PoE's flaws (which you seem to find enough of to make for decent conversation).

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by shaigunjoe » May 14th, 2015, 4:56 am

Lightzy wrote:Shaig, you are the one trying to fanatically accuse me of being something while missing the argument, I am not critical of you, but of your argument.
The Asch study is a study of peer pressure, but no direct pressure happens. Nobody tells the tested that he must do something else or even suggests he is incorrect. He basically imagines the pressure, because it acts on his desire to conform.
Watch this, for more about warped perception in the Asch experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrNIuFrso8I

But poor little me, I didn't know I would have to face such amazing scientist people here who will so boldly and masterfully debunk my arguments, so I will add more science, just to make sure nobody has "that one thing to hang on to in order to keep arguing":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The milgram experiment, where he wanted to figure out just how a whole nation (germany) could become bloodthirsty barbarians and execute millions and millions of people (result: influence of the environment)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjP22DpYYh8
The burning room conformity experiment, where people stay in a "burning" room because nobody else gets up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZwfNs1pqG0
Philip Zimbardo's Standford experiment,
Where in the span of a couple of days, he turns completely normal people into violent, murderous psychopaths by using the power of the environment. The people themselves then go on interviews and remark how it was not them, how the environment turned them into something they didn't recognize at all.

Group comformity experiment, where people do not help a wounded person because nobody else does, and do if someone else does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsPfbup0ac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U-tOghblfE
And the most important, the nikolas christakis study about social networks, a statistical survey that went on for like a hundred years, which showed clearly that your environment shapes you completely, in both mind and body.


There are more. want more?
Sorry man, I've already did the legwork and destroyed your argument once. You were unable to respond to any of the questions I asked or any direct challenges I gave your thesis. You then go and hide behind a bunch of youtube videos and wikipedia pages? And then call it science? Nobody is going to take what you are saying seriously. In addition, you then reference Zimbardo's experiment, which didn't even have a control group.

What I was looking for were links to peer reviewed articles, and provide direct quotes and results that support your thesis. Which essentially is that playing PoE will make you a worse game developer

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Woolfe » May 14th, 2015, 10:46 pm

Can I just point out that not only has hitler been mentioned in regards to your converstaion, but the whole of nazi germany.

Pretty sure that means something ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Lightzy » May 15th, 2015, 2:50 am

Playing POE makes you a worse game developer because you derive influence from something poor.
Like if you were to listen a lot to uninspired, technically poor and artistically mediocre music, you would start making such music.

Try it and see :)

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by dorkboy » May 15th, 2015, 2:58 am

I think we've already established that PoE's quality is a matter of opinion, but thanks for repeating your mindlessly conformist crap idea one more time, Lightzy.
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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by shaigunjoe » May 15th, 2015, 6:47 am

Woolfe wrote:Can I just point out that not only has hitler been mentioned in regards to your converstaion, but the whole of nazi germany.

Pretty sure that means something ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Just actual science at work.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Lightzy » May 15th, 2015, 8:53 am

dorkboy wrote:I think we've already established that PoE's quality is a matter of opinion, but thanks for repeating your mindlessly conformist crap idea one more time, Lightzy.
Gladly sir, I just want you to not forget that everything that you are is a direct result of your environment, from the way you dress to what you like eating, to how you think and respond to every situation, how you act, and how you feel about every single thing. All of that is set by your environment. If you change your environment, you will change everything, and you have no other choice in life.

Just making sure you don't forget! :)

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by shaigunjoe » May 15th, 2015, 9:53 am

Lightzy wrote:
dorkboy wrote:I think we've already established that PoE's quality is a matter of opinion, but thanks for repeating your mindlessly conformist crap idea one more time, Lightzy.
Gladly sir, I just want you to not forget that everything that you are is a direct result of your environment, from the way you dress to what you like eating, to how you think and respond to every situation, how you act, and how you feel about every single thing. All of that is set by your environment. If you change your environment, you will change everything, and you have no other choice in life.

Just making sure you don't forget! :)
Don't worry, we haven't forgotten that your irrational statement has been systematically proven wrong.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by View619 » May 15th, 2015, 10:02 am

Is there anything based in science stating that if you say something enough times or wish for it hard enough, it will come true?

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by drfruitloop » May 15th, 2015, 10:04 am

Lightzy wrote:
dorkboy wrote:I think we've already established that PoE's quality is a matter of opinion, but thanks for repeating your mindlessly conformist crap idea one more time, Lightzy.
Gladly sir, I just want you to not forget that everything that you are is a direct result of your environment, from the way you dress to what you like eating, to how you think and respond to every situation, how you act, and how you feel about every single thing. All of that is set by your environment. If you change your environment, you will change everything, and you have no other choice in life.

Just making sure you don't forget! :)
Lightzy, I hate being this direct but please just shut up. There is nothing that can be accomplished here by mindlessly repeating the same statements ad nauseum, and you are rapidly derailing this generally on-topic thread.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by shaigunjoe » May 15th, 2015, 10:11 am

View619 wrote:Is there anything based in science stating that if you say something enough times or wish for it hard enough, it will come true?
I thought the official scientific statement on that matter was that if you say something enough times it will gradually lose all meaning to you. It is called semantic satiation

Not sure about wishing hard enough, although I think there was some pseudoscience at some point that tried to show that thoughts could effect random processes.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by dorkboy » May 15th, 2015, 1:10 pm

Lightzy wrote:
dorkboy wrote:I think we've already established that PoE's quality is a matter of opinion, but thanks for repeating your mindlessly conformist crap idea one more time, Lightzy.
Gladly sir, I just want you to not forget that everything that you are is a direct result of your environment, from the way you dress to what you like eating, to how you think and respond to every situation, how you act, and how you feel about every single thing. All of that is set by your environment. If you change your environment, you will change everything, and you have no other choice in life.

Just making sure you don't forget! :)
That's certainly an interesting notion. But is it, in the stricter sense, actually true, or is it mere poetic sentiment?

It seems to me that there are three main concepts at work: environment, influence and choice. None of these seem to have been very clearly defined.
Nor does the overall idea, as you present it, seem all that falsifiable to me - is there non-environment, non-influence, non-choice, for instance?

What makes choice so magically different from thought or emotion, or from influence, or from environment? Why not just go all-out determinist and say there is no choice at all; that it is an illusion of choice, mere qualia resulting from quantum fluctuations in the brain or whatnot?

Does an environment influence everyone in the same way? Are there different kinds of influences? (Modalities, if you will..)
Does an influence continue linearly ad infinitum, or is there a saturation point somewhere? A point where it reaches some sort of critical mass and turns against itself, or into a different kind of influence?
Does the influence have properties like strength, duration, retention, etc.., and what determines this? Purely the environment, or some other property of the person being in that environment (memory, for instance)?

This latter question is why I call your conformist idea mindless; it seems to assume no mind/memory/history/integrity on part of the developers, and thus no capacity for (semi-)independent judgement. (And a statement like "We have no self-awareness" is a paradoxical statement, btw.)
The reason I call it crap is because when you use it to justify whatever it is you just happen to want to justify, it sounds like bullshit to me. :|

---

On topic: I'm curious how the devs are going to make the stronghold (which I think made it in after the fact..?) interesting and worthwhile.
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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by View619 » May 15th, 2015, 4:07 pm

Back on topic, regarding the implementation of stretch goals. A more elegant method of fitting them into the core game would be nice, I really dislike the way you can craft and enchant anywhere in POE. Restricting them to being doable in specific areas would have felt more immersive imo, and felt less like they were just thrown in.

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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Firkraag » May 15th, 2015, 5:15 pm

dorkboy wrote:On topic: I'm curious how the devs are going to make the stronghold (which I think made it in after the fact..?) interesting and worthwhile.
A curious question.

PoE, despite other parts, good or bad, had a sin of making stronghold - useful, but empty and unimpressive. IMO, of course. But there's was distinct feeling of "I should move it faster past this location" for me. Consider everything I wrote below, as nitpicking, maybe too harsh for some of you, but not in a way "And because of that - PoE sucks". Not at all, it's just, what I think, wasn't that satisfying and might've been done better. But I don't know their focus, what they had in terms of priorities, funds, man-power and time on this.

1.1. I thought that was Raedrick's one, we'll have, at first. It is more complex and interesting, has platforms, three different levels outside and three different levels inside (there's a dungeons), lord's room, a tale, how you heroically got it.
1.2. Instead we got Caed Nua, which has it's pluses, but is not that great. It's was decent, but Raedrick's was great and player shouldn't compare one thing part of the game to another and ask himself "Why didn't we got this?". Keep in mind, that everything below is concerned of Caed Nua, I have no idea, how to substitute one with another, just pointning, that it would've been great in my opinion.
1.3. Caed Nua were given to a player too easy and too quick. It weren't earned, we weren't took it over themselves, as part of interesting plot. One conversation with former holder is not enough to feel it, apparently.

2.1. Stronghold mechanics was made, but it had no intertwined connections neither to the main plot nor secondary quests. And while Stronghold has Endless Paths, it isn't tied to them directly. What you make with Stronghold stays in Stronghold.

2.2.1. I don't have anything against whole magical telepathic thing, in general. It was supposed to make player's life easier, after all, and it did. But ithink, it would be more engaging, if there was a few quests to make initial rebuild and, take a few walks back and forth, recruit at least few NPCs to inhabit it. Reawekened magical throne, after few quests might've gave us a spare of not returning every time and send our orders to living senechal. Pacing here is a key.
2.2.2. Stronghold would've won from taking these simplifications further, though. If, there is nothing to ask, it was possibly convenient to make orders from merchants from a Stronghold interface.
2.2.3. Add an option to rest without going to second floor of Brackenbury, each time!
2.2.3. Make manual resolve of attack a travel option, while you aren't indoors or a part of major plot (Like Defiance Bay after *SPOILER*).
2.2.4. A quest loot and herbs might go directly into the stash. Special subspace, few clicks and it's in the stash with other stuff.
2.2.5. Et cetera. Crucial here is part, that automatization system, if you already have it should help you to defeat repetitiveness and keep good, useful parts available, while other things is wearing out.

2.3. There is a reason, why I didn't liked to traverse Caed Nua after some moment. Repetitiveness without much reward. Do you know, what might make it better. Bunch of NPCs. Alive. With various levels of fleshing out. Probably, Dragon Age 3 spoiled me as Devil himself, but there is so much to learn from Skyhold and Heaven, even if you despise that game.

2.3.1. A living senechal to counter niceness and idealistism of our steward. I mean, someone, who can check workers job, have a hands, body and image. Some mini-story between mundane senechal and magical senechal. Or maybe, just executive, Anything. Details do matter.
2.3.2. Few guards, even without badass army and barracks to great you once in a while and warn you about special guests.
2.3.3. Random guests, merchants and guards is soulless husks. Almost any merchant everywhere has at least something memorable abou themselves, whether is was information or quest... But it made them at least somewhat special. In Stronghold... not. For example, herbs merchant, who asks to fetch dragon eggs. Why couldn't we recruit her? What's a point standing in a far, far village all the time, if we can effectively make a Stronghold, that we visit again and again. It's about making connections with both protagonist and player.
2.3.4. Other cute little details. Like, who's gardener? Do we have a servants? Do they have a story about their previous life or kids? Who's in charge of Black Meabow? Who cooks? Who hosts a traveler?
2.3.5. Damn, you might've put some of that backer's strangers, who had nothing, aside from soul story, who might've randomly stay here each time (aside from their original placing).
2.3.6. Overall, in more dense and short game, than AAA-title, having a massive Stronghold with high levels of abstractness is not a best approach.

2.3. Dashboard (news feed, log, whatever). You know missed opportunity, when you see it. It's a great tool of storytelling, actually. You don't need to put as much effort, as in NPCs to make a place more alive, coilorful... Couple of servants got married. Son of saved peasant came to become a guard. A holiday is about to celebrated. Donate? (y/n). A holiday celebration story. Some reccuring story about specific NPCs, you might meat closer to the end of the game, or never at all. Quest or piece of loot somewhere, you might fishing out of a rumor. Something bad. Something funny. Something tragic. Something romantic. Something, that makes you feel anything about damn mount of pixels on a screen. Think about it.

2.4. Quests and random events once more. I don't mind trashing through mobs in Endless Paths. I don't mind EP of CN has more battles, than a story. But at least, it had a story. I don't mind sending unused party members to their own adventure, though war table missions in DAI was better decorated, than this (see previous paragraph). I don't mind random merchants and guests, but why are they... dull? Head hunter missions is fun, but it's not a quests. Bunch of strange guys, who mobbed you on a road is not a quest. Like, there is no point of prison, if it has use only for... four characters? Hm... The way it was in a game, wasn't a best one. And, as I said. It would be fun, if having done some quests might've influence othar parts of a game, making it easier and more interesting. Secondary quests, main storyline quests, [Stronghold] or [%Specific Building%] dialogue options as part of recruiting, intimidation or diplomacy. Major spoilers (2-3 Chapter) ahead: [I am the Watcher Lord of Caed Nua(100% Recostruction)] "You all know me well. This man was posessed and killed a Duke against his will. Stop this madness, immediately!"

Maybe I had more in mind, but forgot. And it's long enough, already. I don't think, my thoughts on this is best approach, some of it is contradictcs other paragraphs or too complex or too expensive to implement either in both Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera.

I think myself, that in TToN it would be "kind of stronghold" something very different from Caed Nua, I hope they'll learn everything from it and other strongholds (DAI, Baldur's Gate 2, D:OS, Morrowind, etc.). I wish, they'll make it as useful, as they can, without wearing off it's charm at later stages of the game. I guess, some of the points I made about Pillars of Eternity won't be very useful in Torment. For example, such theme as abandonment might require defferent design and narration decision, than those made about Caed Nua. But, if we have none or almost none NPCs it requires narration, some flashbacks or set of interesting books (Do you remember, how books were in Morrowind and earlier TES games?) or wandering ghost-like guide... Don't know. Actually, telepathic stronghold management might suit Numenera setting even better, but I doubt about story and game pace. It might end up even less fitting, than for PoE.

I'd vote for smaller place with Planar Sphere's vibe to it. Smaller places to restore, if there will be some, but distinct, memorable. If it's a room it has something interactive about. An intrigue to be unveiled, your companion, to talk about or do something, a puzzle, a food generator with bunch of options to order, something, like this. Basically, it should have a "toy" potential. Something, you'd want to click on every time, you'll get there. Dunno. maybe, something else. Substantial meaningful interactivity over background design.

Offer and discuss paragraphs as you wish, or offer your own persepective, but one request: if you think, I am very, very wrong in some paragraph specifically: simply don't touch it. I know, I might be wrong, don't need to focus on it. That's a mere attempt to return derailed topic back on it's way and let's not create more divide. If you think, I said something horribly stupid - ask me, not confront me - maybe I did it accidentally.
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Re: What can be improved from Pillars of Eternity?

Post by Firkraag » May 15th, 2015, 5:25 pm

View619 wrote:Back on topic, regarding the implementation of stretch goals. A more elegant method of fitting them into the core game would be nice, I really dislike the way you can craft and enchant anywhere in POE. Restricting them to being doable in specific areas would have felt more immersive imo, and felt less like they were just thrown in.
Strange, but it really hadn't bothered me at all. If anything, I appraciated that option, though I think, that another thing, that might be turned off/on in menu. For me it was not immersive, but rather meta-immersive. Crafting magical sword in few second is never realistic, however big or impressive workshop you have, but I imagine characters doing it on rest, while traveling, in other words behind a scenes. So, enchanted weapon, or scroll or potion was not made in mere seconds, but presented in medias res - I did it retroactively and added in my active inventory in the middle of a story, but it was there, it just wasn't mentioned.

But, that point of view doesn't work for everyone.
"I am a warhead of weaponized Truth." The Last Castoff (non-canon).

"Colin's period as Jesus was an interesting time." © Brother_None

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