Update 60: Work… work never changes

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Woolfe
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 4th, 2015, 4:13 pm

-Archangel- wrote:They gave me character building options that felt real unlike WL2 where you have empty levels where you save up points to raise that one skill a bit higher. Fallout 2 system with % raises was much more interesting.
I won't disagree totally on that. But its a slightly different question. Yes FO2 % was more interesting. But that didn't make the character building of WL2 "empty" for me.

Big problem was that they tried to make a new system that was too much like FO and not enough like WLMSPE. I would have rather have seen a modified MSPE with Learn by doing still existing but requiring Skill point input to keep it working efficiently.
PiPboy wrote:There is a huge difference in progression between the two games.
DO:S - when you leveled up, you gained a new ability which modified your play style.
W2 - is simply a linear progression from start to finish. The leveling mechanic is simply for sake of balance and nothing more.
I'll take your word on it. Using examples I know nothing about doesn't really help.
PiPboy wrote:Leveling up should feel like your character has gained experience over the period of the game. From a normal student who can't see even what's infront of him, to a blind monk who can see everything around him.
Which is what happens.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by dorkboy » March 4th, 2015, 5:22 pm

Hm, from the PS4 announcement it seems the 'Perks and Quirks' thingie is actually traits (positive & negative?)? :?
[...]
Of course, that’s all great, but how does it play? In this new edition, we’re beefing up our existing gameplay and adding some new features. You’ll be able to customize your squad even more with our new Perks and Quirks (traits) to add unique bonuses and characteristics. Our new Precision Strike (aimed shots) system will let you target individual body parts to cripple or stun enemies, or shatter their armor so you can mop them up, giving you even more options in combat. And you’ll need those options, because we’ve been hard at work hand-crafting each battle you’ll find yourself in. [...]
Or am I completely misreading that?
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by PiPboy » March 5th, 2015, 11:54 am

Woolfe wrote: I'll take your word on it. Using examples I know nothing about doesn't really help.
PiPboy wrote:Leveling up should feel like your character has gained experience over the period of the game. From a normal student who can't see even what's infront of him, to a blind monk who can see everything around him.
Which is what happens.
You really should give D:OS a try - coming from a guy who plays a wide range of rpgs from Spectra Core - Final Fantasy - fallout - dragon age to Mass Effect. Divinity Original Sin was really a pleasant surprise when it came to tactical combat. Especially when playing on harder difficulties and more so on co-op.

As for the 2nd part.
You are only leveling up to maintain status quo, since the enemies level up around the same range as you.
For example if you go into the mole tunnel too early - you get obliterated just because you don't do enough damage.
Balance should no longer be about more damage and more damage resistance, but able to pull of tactics you couldn't do earlier.

Taking XCom for example - my Sniper couldn't take advantage of vantage points because he got hit often. Once he earned the skill partial to full cover. I could safely put him up with places with little cover. An since he had Squad sight he can take shots he normally would not have been able to do.

Such progression systems make it feel like your character is actually progressing and becoming a deadly weapon.
Not retrospective progression where you can kill weaker enemies from the starting zone easier.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 5th, 2015, 4:45 pm

PiPboy wrote:
Woolfe wrote: I'll take your word on it. Using examples I know nothing about doesn't really help.
PiPboy wrote:Leveling up should feel like your character has gained experience over the period of the game. From a normal student who can't see even what's infront of him, to a blind monk who can see everything around him.
Which is what happens.
You really should give D:OS a try - coming from a guy who plays a wide range of rpgs from Spectra Core - Final Fantasy - fallout - dragon age to Mass Effect. Divinity Original Sin was really a pleasant surprise when it came to tactical combat. Especially when playing on harder difficulties and more so on co-op.
Oh I intend to, but I have a mortgage 2 children and a wife at Uni. So I will wait until the price is substantially lower than it is now. :D It is exceedingly rare for me to spend more than $20AU on a game nowadays.
As for the 2nd part.
You are only leveling up to maintain status quo, since the enemies level up around the same range as you.
For example if you go into the mole tunnel too early - you get obliterated just because you don't do enough damage.
Balance should no longer be about more damage and more damage resistance, but able to pull of tactics you couldn't do earlier.
Shrug. Isn't that the same everywhere, You level up to maintain the status quo. Otherwise you are levelling up to dominate, in which case the challenge is gone.
Taking XCom for example - my Sniper couldn't take advantage of vantage points because he got hit often. Once he earned the skill partial to full cover. I could safely put him up with places with little cover. An since he had Squad sight he can take shots he normally would not have been able to do.
I don't think XCom was a good game. But I get the example you mention. But this is a skill. They actually had an equivalent skill in WL2. I can't recall the name of it. But essentially it made your dude harder to hit. I don't know why they ended up dropping it.
Such progression systems make it feel like your character is actually progressing and becoming a deadly weapon.
Not retrospective progression where you can kill weaker enemies from the starting zone easier.
Shrug. I disagree. I do think they could have done the skill system better certainly the connection between skill and stats is lacking. But there is still progression. Whether you "feel" it or not is purely subjective.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by kilobug » March 6th, 2015, 12:54 am

PiPboy wrote:You are only leveling up to maintain status quo, since the enemies level up around the same range as you.
For example if you go into the mole tunnel too early - you get obliterated just because you don't do enough damage.
Balance should no longer be about more damage and more damage resistance, but able to pull of tactics you couldn't do earlier.
Well, it's more or less the case in all games. Enemies can more powerful as you level up or else end game would be too easy. What matters is getting the feeling of getting more powerful, which usually takes three different shapes :

1. In games which aren't totally linear, the ability to postpone an area that you feel too hard until you got some more levels, and then see that this area became easier.

2. Enemies that are more impressing, both visually and in the lore. Like in Baldur's Gate when you defeat your first dragon you really feel "aww, I did it, a dragon !".

3. Different kind of abilities/tactics at different levels. In D&D games that's mostly true for spellcasters, not so much for fighters.

How does WL2 do with those ?

1. Quite well being non-linear enough and with no enemy scaling (I hate Elder Scrolls-type enemy scaling, where a goblin suddenly becomes powerful because you're high level).

2. Half-good there. Some enemies like the Scorpitron, or the robots give you that feelings. Others not so much, mad priests or mannerites or robinsons in California are more powerful than the raiders/RSM of Arizona, but that's pretty artificial just so they aren't too easy.

3. Quite good to me on that, in early game combat you see lots of jamming and friendly fire and have quite low range of attack, late game combat you hit nearly every time at long range and start doing headshots and don't worry more about jamming/friendly fire, so they do feel different enough and you do feel a progression.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by PiPboy » March 6th, 2015, 9:57 am

kilobug wrote:
PiPboy wrote:You are only leveling up to maintain status quo, since the enemies level up around the same range as you.
For example if you go into the mole tunnel too early - you get obliterated just because you don't do enough damage.
Balance should no longer be about more damage and more damage resistance, but able to pull of tactics you couldn't do earlier.
Well, it's more or less the case in all games. Enemies can more powerful as you level up or else end game would be too easy. What matters is getting the feeling of getting more powerful, which usually takes three different shapes :

1. In games which aren't totally linear, the ability to postpone an area that you feel too hard until you got some more levels, and then see that this area became easier.

2. Enemies that are more impressing, both visually and in the lore. Like in Baldur's Gate when you defeat your first dragon you really feel "aww, I did it, a dragon !".

3. Different kind of abilities/tactics at different levels. In D&D games that's mostly true for spellcasters, not so much for fighters.

How does WL2 do with those ?

1. Quite well being non-linear enough and with no enemy scaling (I hate Elder Scrolls-type enemy scaling, where a goblin suddenly becomes powerful because you're high level).

2. Half-good there. Some enemies like the Scorpitron, or the robots give you that feelings. Others not so much, mad priests or mannerites or robinsons in California are more powerful than the raiders/RSM of Arizona, but that's pretty artificial just so they aren't too easy.

3. Quite good to me on that, in early game combat you see lots of jamming and friendly fire and have quite low range of attack, late game combat you hit nearly every time at long range and start doing headshots and don't worry more about jamming/friendly fire, so they do feel different enough and you do feel a progression.
==
Those are all old design mechanics due to engine limitations of the past.
Enemy progression should be less about more health and damage and more about new tactics.

DO:S does this wonderfully - where archers in the beginning of the game simply shoot arrows. Later on they use their arrows tactically which can rape your team. For example one archer using Steam arrow on a group of your guys, and the 2nd archer using Lightning arrow - which causes shock damage to everyone. Once you experience that the first time around - you learn to always start combat first and worry less about doing damage first turn and more about tactically placing your units instead.

One happy point is what some one brought up earlier.
They are going to bring up Body part targeting in the next patch.
As well as Perk \ Quirk system.

But I think a Active Skill system can work out quite well also. Its a time tested proven mechanic which can quickly shift the direction of battle based on when you use each skill
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 6th, 2015, 11:34 am

D:OS is great tactical combat game and a shitty cRPG, so YMVV.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by kilobug » March 6th, 2015, 12:57 pm

PiPboy wrote:Those are all old design mechanics due to engine limitations of the past.
Enemy progression should be less about more health and damage and more about new tactics.
I don't think it's either due to engine limitations or being from the past. Games like Baldur's Gate have very much the variation of tactics between different kind of enemies, even if they are almost two decades old. But that's much easier to do in magical settings, where you can have spells and magical creatures with specific immunities and abilities, it's much harder to do in a "realistic" settings like WL2 settings.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by dorkboy » March 6th, 2015, 6:25 pm

Lacking sense of character progression with regards to skill use could be due to too much task difficulty uniformity within each area.
So, for instance, area A has all 20% difficulty locks, area B has all 30%, and so on - as opposed to more mixed difficulties in both areas.
IDK, just speculating.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 6th, 2015, 6:39 pm

Woolfe wrote: Shrug. Isn't that the same everywhere, You level up to maintain the status quo. Otherwise you are levelling up to dominate, in which case the challenge is gone.
Well, not quite. Challenge and meaningful progression aren't mutually exclusive. Its just a lot of harder to pull off in a realistic setting like WL2.

Fantasy/high sci-fi games have it a lot easier. Need a challenge but player has become really powerful? No problem, throw some weirdass new mechanics at him and he'll be busy again for a while.

Pretty hard to do that in WL2. There is basically just shooting and sometimes shooting with a laser, which is still shooting. And then whole bunch of people on the forums were whining about how melee shouldnt' be viable because its urealistic.

With the game being turn-based, they also can't just throw hordes of enemies at you from every corner, since every fight will take hours.

So I'd say its more down to natural limitations of post-apo setting and not a binary choice between status-quo and domination.
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by PiPboy » March 7th, 2015, 7:54 am

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Woolfe wrote: Shrug. Isn't that the same everywhere, You level up to maintain the status quo. Otherwise you are levelling up to dominate, in which case the challenge is gone.
Well, not quite. Challenge and meaningful progression aren't mutually exclusive. Its just a lot of harder to pull off in a realistic setting like WL2.

Fantasy/high sci-fi games have it a lot easier. Need a challenge but player has become really powerful? No problem, throw some weirdass new mechanics at him and he'll be busy again for a while.

Pretty hard to do that in WL2. There is basically just shooting and sometimes shooting with a laser, which is still shooting. And then whole bunch of people on the forums were whining about how melee shouldnt' be viable because its urealistic.

With the game being turn-based, they also can't just throw hordes of enemies at you from every corner, since every fight will take hours.

So I'd say its more down to natural limitations of post-apo setting and not a binary choice between status-quo and domination.
WL2 is not exactly realistic - when you have Pod Beings \ Giant Badgers \ and Robot Scorpions.
With that said there are ways to make things interesting.
Smoke Grenades and Flash Bangs for one.

Smoke Gernade - All shots through the smoke decrease in accuracy.
Flash Bang - all creatures in AOE are effected passing an inverse awareness check. So the lower the awareness the more resistant you are to the flash bang. This gives really bizare builds an advantage and gives the notion of not more of something is always better.

F2 did that beautifully in one check. If you had an intelligence of 2 - you could kick the computer and it would work. Otherwise you had to have a high science skill or figure out the puzzle. [ Or something along those lines ]
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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Longstreet » March 7th, 2015, 2:09 pm

Thomas,

For the love of all that is good and just, please, please make rebalancing the combat skills and weapons a priority. You're probably already aware of this, but just in case you're not, in the game you've constructed, the only combat skills that make any sense to take are assault rifles and MAYBE energy weapons - and the energy weapons mechanic is screwed up to make people not want to ever wear armor. How a seven-barreled gatling gun can do less damage than an assault rifle boggles the mind.

This problem alone has led myself and I have a feeling many others not to play the game at all or any more until it's fixed.

Thank you.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Mousey » March 7th, 2015, 2:49 pm

IHaveHugeNick wrote:
Woolfe wrote:
IHaveHugeNick wrote: you're constantly fighting an uphill battle against the skill checks.
I don't get that. I always felt like my characters were improving..
I didn't. Well, not after first 10 levels or so. At the start its fine. After that, when you need to start saving skill points to progress, it always felt constipated.You'd get nothing of importance for a few levels. Then you'd finally raise that Lockpicking by 1 point, only for level of skills checks to go up shortly after, and you're back at square one.

The improvements are obviously there, but they didn't really feel meaningful enough to me.
I’ve seen this complaint a few times on these forums. So maybe instead of having: “skill-points-left-over-that-you-held-onto-till-a-high-enough-level-to-advance-a-high-level-skill”, InXile could instead have any one of these systems:
1) Percentile points for skills (like FO:1/2/T); which would likely allow ‘Learn by Doing’ much easier since there’s now 100(+?) skill points to each skill (this is my personal preference). Too late to implement, but fun to think about.
2) OR spend points on a skill but if not enough to advance a level, you get a decimal number after the skill level. So if you had skill level 3 with shotguns and you needed say 10 survival points to get it to reach level 4, but you only had 2 survival points left, then you could make it skill level “3.2 (10)”; which means you need eight more points to get it to skill level 4. This would combine perfectly with ‘Learn By Doing’; because as you used a skill, you’d maybe occasionally get another “.1” added to the used skill.
3) OR (this third method likely doesn’t work, not sure) maybe they could still have just WL2’s ten-skill point system, and even cost only one point to raise a skill point, BUT the higher the skill level, the less it advances the ability. So, for example:

Skill Level …. Base skill percent (vs. ‘average’ difficulty)
1………………..+19% …(=19%, then modded by stat)
2………………..+17%…(=36%, “)
3………………..+15%…(=51%, “)
4………………..+13%…(=64%, “)
5………………..+11%…(=75%, “)
6………………....+9%…(=84%, “)
7…….…………...+7%…(=91%, “)
8…….…………...+5%…(=96%, “)
9…….…………...+3%…(=99%, “)
10…….……….…+1%…(=100%, “)

You’d still need a particular minimum skill level to attempt certain skills (such as lockpick and safe crack), so you may need to have skill level 10 to open a certain safe even though all you get is +1% to succeed.
Though this third system might require that you either have more than ten skill levels and/or get a lot less survival points per level (1 to 4?). Perhaps like so:

Intelligence scoreSurvival Points gained per level
10……………………..5
9………………………4.5
8………………………4
7………………………3.5
6………………………3
5………………………2.5
4………………………2
3………………………1.5
2………………………1
1………………………0.5

I honestly don’t know if any of these systems would be better. Also, it’s likely too late for any of these ideas, but thinking/discussing game mechanics is fun for me; and maybe they could work for a future game.

Personally the current mechanic where if you kill some badgers, suddenly you are better at lock picking… is strange and too gamey to me. I’d be happier if you ONLY got better by either paying for training and by doing… I’d then be happy!!! So if you want to learn a new skill you need to find a trainer (or RC library). The current game forces you to make a combat character to be good at non-combat skills. Though this would explain why at all American technical and journalism schools they teach you to fight, shoot, & hunt ( :lol: joke!).

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by savior » March 25th, 2015, 9:46 am

Does anyone know more or less when this will be released ?

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Vault_13 » March 25th, 2015, 9:47 am

Late summer, probably.

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by savior » March 25th, 2015, 9:54 am

cheers :)

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by G-Man » March 29th, 2015, 3:27 pm

implementing perks might be great if you guys at inxile manage to get it balanced properly, which i think will be lots of hard work and testing if you want to do it right and not break stuff.
i don't care for the graphics, so just keep it as it is, it's fine (maybe not with the consoleros, but i'm not one of them, so i don't care), and, as with the first point, i imagine it's a hard day's work.
mod support always smells a little bit like laziness in my nose, like the modern bethesda way of game development: a) develop a game b) in the first few months make some updates to show your "great" support for your product c) give the players mod kits, lean back and just say: why should we continue polishing this game? with the mod support players can do it theirself! please don't go down that road!
which leads me to my greatest concern: the new ideas all sound nice, but i don't care for them before the older problems are solved!
- weapon balance! some weapon types like sub machine guns just suck most of the time, others (handguns) are good at the beginning, but take a hard turn to uselessness somewhere down the road to cali... and we all know there are also the op kinds of weapons (yeah, i mean assault rifles!). i hate it that picking some weapon skills is just bad gameplay (or just so much harder/easier than others) while it seems quite optimal to put an assault rifle into each single ranger's hands (except for the ammo question)
- the energy weapon disaster aka why the hell wear armor, let's all just run around in the nude! the reverse connection of armor threshold and weapon damage with these weapons might have been a nice innovation, but it just DOES NOT WORK! and on top of this there's also this cheat-like uber weapon example: you pick the ew skill, hate yourself for it in the first few hours... get to the canyon and BAAAM... hello gamma ray blaster, best weapon in the game till you get the final tier assault rifle?!?! not cool... and what it does to the armor system's just ridiculous. in az you might need some good armor, cause there aren't too many energy weapons shot at you, but there also aren't many armors available that are worth the money. and in la it's the other way around: you get lots of possibly good armors, but you get cooked in 'em by all those cotc and bots and whatnot. just go and make energy weapons threshold work just like it does with the other weapons! yeah, energy weapons won't be so special anymore, but at least this way there's more purpose to armor than carrying lots of useless weight and wondering why it's not visible on your characters!
-unfinished (cut) content: just some examples. anna hegedus anyone? what is it with this poor little girl and her elroy? shall i really just kill her again and again with nothing more coming out of it but a boy out of a chest yelling at me?? anyway, at least az seems quite final, but la does NOT! the rodia "slums" filled with people with names but no purpose but oneliners... manny's "oh-so-great casino", some tables on the street, that's it? especially hollywood had so much potential wasted. what's with the painter-guy at the town entrance? why is there no more interaction with the salt dealers but killing 'em all? and the gauntlet of samson... i was really looking forward to this one: go climb the mountain, filled with horrible dangers, terrible mutants and fierce beasts!! about a dozen badgers, a handful of dogs and two dozen landmines, sorely disappointed.
i could go on and on and on, but honestly i'm growing tired of counting all the negative aspects of this game, because beneath all that i still just love it!! so, inxile, here's my admittedly long story finally short: with wasteland 2 you already made quite a wheel, but it's not quite rolling straight... but that doesn't mean you should reinvent it by putting lots of lightbulbs (graphic updates) and spikes (perks) and whatever on it... all you've got to do is go and make it ROUND, cause that's the only thing a wheel really needs to be!
ranger command out

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Re: Update 60: Work… work never changes

Post by Woolfe » March 29th, 2015, 4:26 pm

Just on Mod support. It was something that was requested by the backers, and is a reward tier that has not yet been fulfilled.
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