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"Classes" and customization

Posted: April 21st, 2020, 7:54 am
by Not a Cop
So, I have no idea what's being implemented in the background as the beta persists and you guys keep working but I wanted to put in 3 or 4 cents:

Custom portraits: I know others have said it, upvoting.

Costume inventory slots: some gear looks super cool but you need to change gear for the stats. Slots for customization pieces to make a character really yours would be nice

Outfits in general: every gear piece has that same grundge band post apocalyptic mad max vibe and while I understand where this game takes place, your idea of a character might not be that hard-core. I.e. we are playing the good guys (depending on your style) I want my attire to reflect my characters nature (ranger, police, military style) without having 15 spikes or deer antlers poking out of it. Basically what I'm saying is, most of the hero selections look like the villains we are fighting XD and I'm not saying you can't have more outlandish stuff in the future. Hell, it would be cool to have wings or glowing tech pieces a-la Diablo or Shadow run Faire. Just enough for the player to make it their own

Kodiak Customization: This vehicle has been touted as almost "another character" and as such, should have it's own personality as well (different voices, headlights, police/fire/ambulance lights and strobes, different treads or tires). Hell, maybe steal the voice of K.I.T from Knightrider :D

Classes: upvoting the thing about being able to name a class... more importantly... for the RPG element of the game I understand if you level certain abilities you get some skills but some of those skills feel weak to me. At one point in the earlier beta there was an item for a deployable auto turret. I'm fine with it being a consumable but it would be nice if I got to create a "class" that had a rechargeable ability like a gadgeteer that had his own deployable turret or an animal whisperer class that could choose his own summon animal or a medic that could aoe heal every once in a while. Hackers that could hack robots at range instead of touch distance. I dunno, just spit balling here. I just know when I deployed that turret in game I was like "that's fucking awesome" then it was just gone and I was like "oh"... like when you pump up heavy guns you get gun weapon skills and that's cool but when you pump up mechanics you can do more damage to cars and stuff? Like okay XD maybe mechanic level 4 should allow a turret and maybe level 8 buffs it. You're the smart guys you understand what I'm saying.

Hit chance indicators: sometimes I was having issues where when I scrolled over to where I might want to run the game was showing me new hit chances for all the enemies but not where I currently was. Could have just been a bug. I'm sure it will be worked out.

Co-op RPG parts: I haven't seen how you guys operate this but just wanting to say, how divinity does this, allowing your co-op partner to make choices for the leveling and gearing of his or her characters is nice. I'm just worried when we level I've gotta make all the choices and be like, "okay so where do you want your allocation points to go, my bad I gave you animal whisperer".

Sneaking: this system, if it's going to remain, should be worth it to use. If you're going to have a sneaky shit character, hopefully it'll be easier to figure out and get good prefight kills or crits.

Social skills/leader: so, I couldn't tell in the beta but is the "leader" with the star under them the one to be able to use social skills like hard ass or kiss ass or if you have multiple characters with varying social skills can you just make those selections? Also, not being able to "set" a leader was annoying. It seemed that the only way to select your leader was to make sure the box touched them first. I just want my first created guy to be my leader. I don't want to have to play fruit ninja and select them a certain way. I don't want my sniper leading the charge into the fray because I drug my mouse wrong.

Thanks for everything. I hope these comments don't come off as unappreciative. Believe me, I only ask for this kind of stuff because I don't have the skills or abilities to make my ideas come to reality in games that I want to play and you guys do. Even modders out there have skills that make me envious. Everything you guys are doing is appreciated and I can't wait to play. All the stuff I'm mentioning is a lot I'm sure for coding but who knows. Maybe a patch down the road after the Corona virus? Good luck and good gaming.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 16th, 2020, 9:29 pm
by Not a Cop
Nobody had any thoughts? Not one of my idea seemed valid?

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 17th, 2020, 1:25 pm
by Drool
I wouldn't support coded classes. If you want to build a character as a specialist, that's fine, but the game was never about classes. You're Rangers.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 17th, 2020, 1:53 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 1:25 pm
If you want to build a character as a specialist, that's fine, but the game was never about classes.
What is the real difference in this case? Specialist vs generalist vs having a class.

I agree that the game was not about classes, but I can't ignore that the game was originally about a paramilitary organization of engineers. One would think that character classes (or Ranger subclasses) would be rather fitting.

Bioware's Neverwinter Nights had an interesting option where the character had a sort of subclass called 'packages'; it was simply auto-configuring the way the skills were picked. It did not give class special abilities, but resulted in characters well suited for their named subclass. Could this not work well, and to the same effect in Wasteland 3? (...And could also allow class recognition in dialogs. ;) )

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Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 17th, 2020, 7:43 pm
by Not a Cop
I just appreciate that someone read what I had to say. Was worried I was shouting into the ether!

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 17th, 2020, 7:51 pm
by Not a Cop
Gizmo wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 1:53 pm
Drool wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 1:25 pm
If you want to build a character as a specialist, that's fine, but the game was never about classes.
What is the real difference in this case? Specialist vs generalist vs having a class.

I agree that the game was not about classes, but I can't ignore that the game was originally about a paramilitary organization of engineers. One would think that character classes (or Ranger subclasses) would be rather fitting.

Bioware's Neverwinter Nights had an interesting option where the character had a sort of subclass called 'packages'; it was simply auto-configuring the way the skills were picked. It did not give class special abilities, but resulted in characters well suited for their named subclass. Could this not work well, and to the same effect in Wasteland 3? (...And could also allow class recognition in dialogs. ;) )

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While the biggest core of my thought on that was specialty skills, the original point was at LEAST being able to name the class like one other guy pointed out. I hope that was clear every time I said "up voting" throughout my little essay it was because a previous poster mentioned it. I don't want to plagiarize. College gave me nightmares about plagiarism. Apparently, some dude does a press release, says "ladies and gentleman, we gottem' " and then the FBI kicks in my door.

I'm no coder, I explicitly made sure to say I have no idea how games are made. Do you think they could even change much pre launch at this time? The game is only a few months away. I wonder.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 17th, 2020, 10:12 pm
by Gizmo
Not a Cop wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:51 pm
I'm no coder, I explicitly made sure to say I have no idea how games are made. Do you think they could even change much pre launch at this time? The game is only a few months away. I wonder.
I've no idea how their studio works, or how adaptable they are. But if a —class— was simply auto-configured skill selection, and a UI name, I can't imagine that would be too difficult, if they wished. Class recognition in dialogs, and having any real conditional effects is very likely too late to consider.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 18th, 2020, 3:41 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 1:53 pm
What is the real difference in this case? Specialist vs generalist vs having a class.
One is something the player says and decides, the other is something the game says and decides. One is role-playing, the other is mechanical.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 18th, 2020, 4:10 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 3:41 pm
Gizmo wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 1:53 pm
What is the real difference in this case? Specialist vs generalist vs having a class.
One is something the player says and decides, the other is something the game says and decides. One is role-playing, the other is mechanical.
That is absurd. I was hoping for an insightful answer.

Firstly, a class is chosen by the player—they pick which class to play, and secondly a class is an integral part of the role. It shapes the personality, goals, and aptitudes of the character; even their bias, their indoctrination, prejudices, scholastic short comings, and of course their trade craft. It indicates all they have learned and aspired to in their life; before the start of game... Because characters rarely if ever start the game as infants; they had to grow up learning something. That's what a class is, and the training ingrains in them a preferred ideology, and methodology.

Last... All is mechanical. The mechanical side of the rules serve to balance the character classes; else why play anything but a spell caster (or heavy weapons specialist)? Roleplaying is extrapolating the known character, and a class gives them much needed definition; it gives them clear boundaries that are not always within their control. It makes the role to play—and I most certainly don't mean 'Tank, Healer, DPS'. It defines them as individuals; it's what makes Gandalf different from Gimli, and Thorin different Bilbo.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 19th, 2020, 2:27 am
by Wulfric
classes in Wasteland? no thanks
I'd rather build my 4 rangers + 3 deputies the way I want to, mix and match skills so I cover all of them
I don't like meelee, so I'm not gonna turn ralphie into a fulltime brawler, I'd rather give him an SMG and sit in cover
otherwise I'd be stuck with 4 classes I like and 3 characters I'm forced to build in a specific way because the game is making me

and these games have always been set up to be able to level up any skill, you can't be forced by the game to not make a mechanic because you get a mechanic follower to fill that spot for you after the intro
and letting you pick follower classes is even worse, now you're building your own perfect party that has everything from the start and I like having my NPC's with their own lives and backstories, leading to them having a skillset of their own

like who picked a pre-made class in Oblivion instead of making their own with all the skills they want instead of looking through a long list that might not even have the perfect class? classes wouldn't work in this game, the only way it would work for me, is if they automatically named classes based on picked skills, like "oh you're good at these 3 skills? you're a heavy hitter now"

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 19th, 2020, 6:07 am
by Gizmo
Wulfric wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 2:27 am
...like who picked a pre-made class in Oblivion instead of making their own
I did.
...the only way it would work for me, is if they automatically named classes based on picked skills, like "oh you're good at these 3 skills? you're a heavy hitter now"
This is the suggestion given above; the naming comes after the skill selection instead of before it, yet the result is the same.

*In the military, or paramilitary setting, wouldn't they expect a recruit to be trained for a specialty, rather than assigning them a job title after arbitrary elective education?

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 19th, 2020, 8:32 am
by Not a Cop
Wulfric wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 2:27 am
classes in Wasteland? no thanks
I'd rather build my 4 rangers + 3 deputies the way I want to, mix and match skills so I cover all of them
I don't like meelee, so I'm not gonna turn ralphie into a fulltime brawler, I'd rather give him an SMG and sit in cover
otherwise I'd be stuck with 4 classes I like and 3 characters I'm forced to build in a specific way because the game is making me

and these games have always been set up to be able to level up any skill, you can't be forced by the game to not make a mechanic because you get a mechanic follower to fill that spot for you after the intro
and letting you pick follower classes is even worse, now you're building your own perfect party that has everything from the start and I like having my NPC's with their own lives and backstories, leading to them having a skillset of their own

like who picked a pre-made class in Oblivion instead of making their own with all the skills they want instead of looking through a long list that might not even have the perfect class? classes wouldn't work in this game, the only way it would work for me, is if they automatically named classes based on picked skills, like "oh you're good at these 3 skills? you're a heavy hitter now"
My original point was just being able to name the class. As is, if you pick a pre-made they have some badass name for their class. If you make your own character it just says ranger. So yes, your last point is kind of what I was saying. Either based on your choices which is what other games do, or just being able to name it. My other point wasn't about having to CHOOSE AND ENTIRE CLASS I just meant make the CHOOSABLE SKILLS MORE IMPACTFUL. Every game has min/maxing and having to pick up or drop a followet is all well and good I'm just saying the abilities that come with maxing certain skills are kind of lackluster. I don't really know how to put it into words... sigh.

Oh, I also picked a premade class in oblivion, most newbs do when they don't understand mechanics. Then when I was familiar I picked my own stuff. If that makes sense. I swear there is a sense of elitism in the RPG community. "You don't know what initiative is? This isn't the game for you normie lol. Try Hello Kitty Island Adventure."

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 19th, 2020, 3:00 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 18th, 2020, 4:10 pm
That is absurd. I was hoping for an insightful answer.
That's the distinction. I'm sorry you don't like it.
secondly a class is an integral part of the role.
This is Wasteland. Your class is "Desert Ranger".
It shapes the personality, goals
Which is the problem. I don't need or want the game holding my hand telling me the personality of my characters. Why even make characters if their personality is decided by inXile?
That's what a class is, and the training ingrains in them a preferred ideology, and methodology.
Only if you're incapable of being creative yourself. I made a sniper in WL2. I gave her very low strength, but very high awareness and coordination. She was very much a glass cannon. I then fleshed her out in other ways with the other skills I picked and the Quirk I gave her. I didn't need the game to roll up and and tell me what stat line the Sniper Class was required to have and what skills were prohibited. If I wanted that, I could have just picked the premade sniper.
Last... All is mechanical. The mechanical side of the rules serve to balance the character classes; else why play anything but a spell caster (or heavy weapons specialist)?
...because I don't want to? Same reason I don't min/max.
Roleplaying is extrapolating the known character, and a class gives them much needed definition
Absolute nonsense. I have an imagination. I can imagine a sniper or a doctor or a brawler or a skillmonkey just fine without predefined classes. I can pick their attributes and I can pick their skills.
It defines them as individuals
It does, but it's hardly required.
it's what makes Gandalf different from Gimli, and Thorin different Bilbo.
This is a terrible analogy. What outside agent gave Tolkien a list of classes he was allowed to use?
Gizmo wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 6:07 am
This is the suggestion given above; the naming comes after the skill selection instead of before it, yet the result is the same.
Just because it worked in XCOM doesn't mean it's appropriate here.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 19th, 2020, 10:47 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 3:00 pm
That's the distinction. I'm sorry you don't like it.
Well... it's your honest answer, but it is not accurate. You equate roleplaying with "it can be anything because I say so"; which means that playing in-character becomes meaningless, because you can move the goal post at every choice, even unconsciously. There is no role to play, there is simply —whatever you want them to do.
secondly a class is an integral part of the role.
This is Wasteland. Your class is "Desert Ranger".
I can accept that.

I still think that a blanket 'Ranger' class would make it unduly difficult for them. For what commander could assemble a team quickly, given that each member would need in depth interview to determine their qualifications; they couldn't just pick a scout, an infiltrator, a security specialist, and a demolitions expert, because who could guess at a glance what skills any of the rangers might have—or not have, when their education is apparently arbitrary and of unmeasured competence. A sniper (title) implies being good at it. A Wasteland Ranger can have zero combat skills; none... How can that qualify as a ranger? They can even have no skills at all.

Classes bundle related skills to make competent—and confident individuals who are capable of doing their expected tasks. The jack-of-all-trades, or those of wildly disparate skills is spreading themselves thin; having little overlap, and having lost time for training at cross purposes. Where one activity (like fasting, tumbling, or mountain climbing) impairs doing the other (like calligraphy, software programming, or marksmanship).

D&D 3.5 allowed for this kind of training, but it (rightly) cost them more time and effort (by way of point costs per skill level). Wasteland does increase the skill cost for higher levels, but allows making a "ranger" PC with an agility of 4, and being only skilled in climbing and acrobatics; it's nuts.
It shapes the personality, goals
Which is the problem. I don't need or want the game holding my hand telling me the personality of my characters. Why even make characters if their personality is decided by inXile?
How cold you see it as hand holding? See it as akin to the card game Spider, where every personal detail adds another suit to the deck; yet another aspect of them to account for in your decisions. But besides... character classes are never that specific—except in the rare case of an assigned PC, but even then the role is made clearer.

Myself, I play RPGs to roleplay—the specific role doesn't matter, so long as I understand the character; classes help, so do biographies.

If I have to make the character from scratch I will, but I have no qualm against playing a partly—or fully assigned PC. What do you think recruited party members are? When I play, I roleplay the selected character. In Baldur's Gate Imoen cases the Friendly Arm Inn alone, or with Montaron—but never Khalid, never Minsc; they wouldn't approve. Did you resent their personalities, and that you could not pick their starting skills?
That's what a class is, and the training ingrains in them a preferred ideology, and methodology.
Only if you're incapable of being creative yourself.
That's BoguS, and you should know it. It's a shame that you choose to miss out on the roleplaying of unfamiliar characters (paired with weighted random skill checks no less!). It allows you an escape from reading your own fiction, and allows for your own characters to surprise you.
Roleplaying is extrapolating the known character, and a class gives them much needed definition
Absolute nonsense. I have an imagination. I can imagine a sniper or a doctor or a brawler or a skillmonkey just fine without predefined classes. I can pick their attributes and I can pick their skills.
But the world —and their world doesn't work like that. A doctor requires having a medical degree; a medical degree requires time spent attaining it...time not spent attaining other skills like bomb disposal, or wilderness tracking. There are skills that are mutually exclusive; a surgeon isn't going to study the iron-palm.
It defines them as individuals
It does, but it's hardly required.
A class is active vocation; possibly avocation. Either way it is what they have skill at, and it affects how they act & react in the world.
it's what makes Gandalf different from Gimli, and Thorin different Bilbo.
This is a terrible analogy. What outside agent gave Tolkien a list of classes he was allowed to use?
Truly it's not; it's near perfect. A class indicates how the character has spent their time thus far, and how they are prepared to react to a given situation. Thorin couldn't hope to match Bilbo for stealth (even with aid of the ring); Bilbo couldn't match Thorin in combat, or in craftsmanship. Gimli is not a wizard; can't act or think like one. It is because of their respective pasts, and how they each spent it.

*Technically Gandalf IS a poor choice, because Tolkien's wizards are their own (non-human/divine) race—the Istari. Gimli could never have been like Gandalf regardless of how he spent his time. :|
Gizmo wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 6:07 am
This is the suggestion given above; the naming comes after the skill selection instead of before it, yet the result is the same.
Just because it worked in XCOM doesn't mean it's appropriate here.
How so?

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 20th, 2020, 1:04 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 19th, 2020, 10:47 pm
Well... it's your honest answer, but it is not accurate. You equate roleplaying with "it can be anything because I say so"; which means that playing in-character becomes meaningless, because you can move the goal post at every choice, even unconsciously.
And I can load up a cheat engine to make everyone have a 10 in everything, what's your point?
they couldn't just pick a scout, an infiltrator, a security specialist, and a demolitions expert, because who could guess at a glance what skills any of the rangers might have
"Hey, any of you know how to repair an engine?"
A Wasteland Ranger can have zero combat skills; none... How can that qualify as a ranger?
You do know that not everyone in the military is a combat ninja, right?
They can even have no skills at all.
I don't believe you can make a character with no skills. But if you want dead weight, that's your choice. Maybe it's some high up's kid.
Classes bundle related skills to make competent
Yes. I know what classes do. I'm arguing they're unnecessary here.
D&D 3.5 allowed for this kind of training
And Amber is a diceless system. So what?
Wasteland does increase the skill cost for higher levels, but allows making a "ranger" PC with an agility of 4, and being only skilled in climbing and acrobatics; it's nuts.
Yes, the CLASSIC system is pretty terrible and it was a mistake to move away from MSPE. Trying to make it Fallout Lite introduced a whole host of problems.

Speaking of Fallout, there's a game they didn't need classes either.
How cold you see it as hand holding? See it as akin to the card game Spider
This is one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.
But besides... character classes are never that specific—except in the rare case of an assigned PC, but even then the role is made clearer.
"I wanna make a Wizard who wears plate mail."
"Sorry, that class doesn't allow it."
What do you think recruited party members are?
I think they're NPCs.
Did you resent their personalities, and that you could not pick their starting skills?
Do you not understand the difference between player-created characters and game-created characters?
That's BoguS, and you should know it. It's a shame that you choose to miss out on the roleplaying of unfamiliar characters (paired with weighted random skill checks no less!).
No, I just understand that different games operate differently. I don't want every fantasy game to be D&D, no matter how much I like D&D. I don't begrudge Trine for having premade characters any more than I begrudge the Witcher for not having the Doom Marine.
A doctor requires having a medical degree; a medical degree requires time spent attaining it
Ah yes. All those medical schools in the Wasteland world. They're totally going to medical school and doing a full residency.
...time not spent attaining other skills like bomb disposal, or wilderness tracking. There are skills that are mutually exclusive; a surgeon isn't going to study the iron-palm.
And that is represented by the limited pool of skill points. Further, if the doctor wants to learn Kung-Fu, he most certainly can. Just probably won't be learning it and sniping and car repair, and helicopter piloting.
A class is active vocation; possibly avocation. Either way it is what they have skill at, and it affects how they act & react in the world.
That's what their personality is for. In my WL2 playthrough, I made a hard-drinking, chain-smoking Doctor who used a pistol and had that Quirk that gave bonus damage to wounded enemies. He was an absolute bastard. He was good at being a doctor, but he didn't especially like it. Think... Doc Holliday, but worse. And somehow, I did it without the game giving me a class.
A class indicates how the character has spent their time thus far, and how they are prepared to react to a given situation.
Classes are imposed externally. So, again, what outside agency imposed those classes on Tolkien? Tolkien created his characters without classes because he didn't need them.
Thorin couldn't hope to match Bilbo for stealth (even with aid of the ring); Bilbo couldn't match Thorin in combat, or in craftsmanship. Gimli is not a wizard; can't act or think like one. It is because of their respective pasts, and how they each spent it.
Is that because Tolkien was creative and logically extrapolated what his characters could and would do, or because some person gave him a list of classes telling him what his characters could and would do?
*Technically Gandalf IS a poor choice, because Tolkien's wizards are their own (non-human/divine) race—the Istari. Gimli could never have been like Gandalf regardless of how he spent his time.
And Peter Dinklage will never be an NBA star no matter how hard he trains. What's your point?
Just because it worked in XCOM doesn't mean it's appropriate here.
How so?
...because XCOM is a different style of game? Considering how much you complain about Fallout 3, I'd think you'd be familiar with the concept of "what works for some may not work for others".

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 23rd, 2020, 1:30 am
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 20th, 2020, 1:04 pm
"Hey, any of you know how to repair an engine?"
No... :| From a roster.

Listen, when someone's car is broken, they don't wander around asking, "Hey, any of you know how to repair an engine?"; they call a mechanic...and hope the 'mechanic' is not a poetry major with a few hours training in auto-mechanics 101.
A Wasteland Ranger can have zero combat skills; none... How can that qualify as a ranger?
You do know that not everyone in the military is a combat ninja, right?
Everyone has to pass bootcamp, (or at least 'Knife & Fork school').
They can even have no skills at all.
I don't believe you can make a character with no skills.
I was surprised when I first discovered it.
Trying to make it Fallout Lite introduced a whole host of problems.
I mentioned to a couple of InXile staff in 'Zots' coffee shop, that Wasteland 2 was about the best Fallout sequel I'd ever seen; they were not enthused. :lol: ( But it was a genuine compliment ;) )
How cold you see it as hand holding? See it as akin to the card game Spider
This is one of the most ridiculous analogies I've ever seen.
I had hoped it would be obvious. See... you bristle at being given fixed aspects of their background, but my point was that each additional character detail makes playing the role more complex; just as each additional suit added in Spider is something more that the player has to account for in their decisions.
But besides... character classes are never that specific—except in the rare case of an assigned PC, but even then the role is made clearer.
"I wanna make a Wizard who wears plate mail."
"Sorry, that class doesn't allow it."
Indeed it (usually) doesn't, for the same reasons the man-at-arms doesn't cast lightning bolts. It's not a simulator, the classes are a mechanical framework, dressed up in the fiction; fiction that suits the gameplay... and not the other way around.
What do you think recruited party members are?
I think they're NPCs.
No. NPC isn't short for Not-Player's-Character. You are still expected to roleplay them in your party, unless they are not under your control.
Did you resent their personalities, and that you could not pick their starting skills?
Do you not understand the difference between player-created characters and game-created characters?
I understand it perfectly. It is you who has the hang-up about not having created them, and that it makes them any less of a character to play. :?
I don't want every fantasy game to be D&D, no matter how much I like D&D. I don't begrudge Trine for having premade characters any more than I begrudge the Witcher for not having the Doom Marine.
What's your point? The argument applies to any RPG, D&D is just an easy example.
Ah yes. All those medical schools in the Wasteland world. They're totally going to medical school and doing a full residency.
The point stands, regardless of how they learned, they dedicated their time to learning it; time not simultaneously spent learning something else.
There are skills that are mutually exclusive; a surgeon isn't going to study the iron-palm.
And that is represented by the limited pool of skill points. Further, if the doctor wants to learn Kung-Fu, he most certainly can.
Do you just cursorily read with the intent to counter? You always miss the point of —most examples; and you are often guilty of paraphrasing the quote to make it easier to rebut. A SURGEON is not going to study a martial art that aspires to slamming one's hand against bricks; you never look for the meaning in examples.. you just reply to your assumption. It's been like that since the first day on these forums. :(
That's what their personality is for. In my WL2 playthrough, I made a hard-drinking, chain-smoking Doctor who used a pistol and had that Quirk that gave bonus damage to wounded enemies. He was an absolute bastard. He was good at being a doctor, but he didn't especially like it. Think... Doc Holliday, but worse.
That's a very cool character to play. 8-)
Just because it worked in XCOM doesn't mean it's appropriate here.
How so?
...because XCOM is a different style of game? Considering how much you complain about Fallout 3, I'd think you'd be familiar with the concept of "what works for some may not work for others".
You are the one who brought up XCOM; I just asked, "How so?". I have never played XCOM.

Of course I know "what works for some may not work for others", but you are discussing the general concept of RPG professions.
(And if you read above, I didn't say that the Wasteland series needed them.)

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 23rd, 2020, 2:39 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 1:30 am
Listen, when someone's car is broken, they don't wander around asking, "Hey, any of you know how to repair an engine?"; they call a mechanic...and hope the 'mechanic' is not a poetry major with a few hours training in auto-mechanics 101.
It's after the apocalypse. The phrase "any port in the storm" comes to mind.

Further, the dude with 10 in mechanical repair might not have gone to ITT, but he clearly knows what he's doing and everyone will know to talk to him if you need something fixed. Maybe it's a hobby and he's some kind of savant. Maybe he memorized every Chilton's he could find. Who knows. But he doesn't need to carry a giant sign around to do his job, or for people to know what he's good at.
Everyone has to pass bootcamp, (or at least 'Knife & Fork school').
So what? In game terms, (if boot camp even exists) that means a 0 in every skill. With a 0 in Pistols, your Ranger can operate a pistol. Probably not very well, but they can make it go bang.
Indeed it (usually) doesn't, for the same reasons the man-at-arms doesn't cast lightning bolts.
Nonsense. And Warhammer Fantasy strongly disagrees with you. Also, being able to channel arcane energy is slightly different than putting on clothes. It's not that D&D mages get a penalty to how well the armor protects, or a penalty to movement, or a massive increase in the time it takes to put it on, they are flat out forbidden to wear it. Like it magically pops off their body and lands on the floor.
No. NPC isn't short for Not-Player's-Character. You are still expected to roleplay them in your party, unless they are not under your control.
Non, not "Not". And they very much are NPCs. Or, if you prefer, you can use the cNPC neologism. Or we can use more D&D terms, you can call them Hirelings or Minions. Whatever you wish to call them, they are not PCs.
What's your point? The argument applies to any RPG, D&D is just an easy example.
That different games use different mechanics and work differently. And just because something works in one game doesn't mean it'll work, or that it's necessary, for another. One size fits all... doesn't.
The point stands, regardless of how they learned, they dedicated their time to learning it; time not simultaneously spent learning something else.
As represented by the skill points spent.
A SURGEON is not going to study a martial art that aspires to slamming one's hand against bricks
He also won't be a real Scotsman.
It's been like that since the first day on these forums. :(
And back to concern trolling.
That's what their personality is for. In my WL2 playthrough, I made a hard-drinking, chain-smoking Doctor who used a pistol and had that Quirk that gave bonus damage to wounded enemies. He was an absolute bastard. He was good at being a doctor, but he didn't especially like it. Think... Doc Holliday, but worse.
That's a very cool character to play. 8-)
Thank you. But you'll note I did it without needing a class. And furthermore, most any game's "doctor" class would probably forbidden such a character.
You are the one who brought up XCOM; I just asked, "How so?". I have never played XCOM.
XCOM used a semi-random progression for the soldiers. When hired, they were just recruits with no special abilities or specializations. After their first promotion (usually after their first mission), they would be assigned a class (Heavy, Support, Sniper, etc) which would determine what they'd be for the rest of the game. As they leveled, you would (generally) pick one of two skills to further direct their growth. For instance, the Support class could veer towards a more tactical support role (smoke grenades and such) or more towards a medic. It was at least a little similar to your suggestion:

"This is the suggestion given above; the naming comes after the skill selection instead of before it, yet the result is the same."

Problem was, if you desperately needed a Sniper, you had to hope the RNG was in your favor, all while doing missions with raw recruits. In the hyper-expendable world of XCOM it worked, but I wouldn't want to do it with Rangers.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 23rd, 2020, 6:23 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 2:39 pm
For instance, the Support class could veer towards a more tactical support role (smoke grenades and such) or more towards a medic. It was at least a little similar to your suggestion:

"This is the suggestion given above; the naming comes after the skill selection instead of before it, yet the result is the same."
The suggestion was that the player choose their PC's skills as they wished, and that the game would auto-name that character's class (in this case it's only just a name), rather than the player choosing a class, and getting those skills. Before that it mentioned the Packages from Neverwinter Nights; those were only named configurations of the cosmetic sub-class.
A SURGEON is not going to study a martial art that aspires to slamming one's hand against bricks
He also won't be a real Scotsman.
But you read it—and responded that (of course!) the surgeon could learn a martial art; this is you (always) jumping straight to an assumed meaning, without really trying to understand what the other has typed. The context was of mutually exclusive skills; the example was a situation where it would be crazy for a doctor to take up Iron-palm (or hand), because it could lead to nerve damage in their hands.
(It would also affect their dexterity for gaining the requisite calluses.)

*As for the rest—left unquoted, I won't try anymore. ;) You don't seem to read for comprehension; presumably you are speed reading it, and gainsay anything put to you that you either disagree with, or that you completely misconstrue the meaning of... inevitably (and erroneously) seeing it as nonsense, and responding against what was often not been proposed.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 24th, 2020, 2:10 pm
by Drool
Gizmo wrote:
May 23rd, 2020, 6:23 pm
The suggestion was that the player choose their PC's skills as they wished, and that the game would auto-name that character's class (in this case it's only just a name), rather than the player choosing a class, and getting those skills.
Then what's the point? Did my previously mentioned murderous doctor suddenly gain the "Doctor Class" because I put "Dr." at the start of his name?

You've gone from wanting actual classes to simply insisting the a purely cosmetic title be applied to every character based on starting skill choice, even if it has absolutely no meaning. So what if I make a character with Surgeon and First Aid to proc the doctor "class" and then never increase those skills again, and instead go all in on Sniper Rifle and Weaponsmithing? Do they stay a doctor despite not doing that job? Does their "class" change? If the "class" changes so fluidly, why even bother with it, since it applies no restrictions and has no mechanical ramifications?

Hell, why even spend the resources to code such a thing? Why not just add another empty box that says "Class" with a blank and let players fill it it. Or not.

Or, why not skip the box all together and have players do it themselves with their imagination? We're not talking about a restriction any more, we're talking about a pointless title. Just tell yourself "this is a Doctor" and apply skill points appropriately.
But you read it—and responded that (of course!) the surgeon could learn a martial art; this is you (always) jumping straight to an assumed meaning, without really trying to understand what the other has typed. The context was of mutually exclusive skills; the example was a situation where it would be crazy for a doctor to take up Iron-palm (or hand), because it could lead to nerve damage in their hands.
(It would also affect their dexterity for gaining the requisite calluses.)
I read what you wrote and responded to the words you typed. It's not my fault you can't get your meaning across. However, I'm sure it's easier to just assume bad faith in the other person than to express yourself more clearly. I believe we've had this conversation before.

Further, there is nothing stopping a Surgeon from learning martial arts, even one that involves breaking things with your hands. You don't start your lessons with punching cinder blocks. The whole point is to learn to do it without hurting yourself. Now, it's probably not the smartest thing in the world for a surgeon to do, but there's no cosmic force preventing him from doing it.

Maybe he's sick of being a doctor and wants to do something else. He's not a Pokemon, he doesn't delete his medical knowledge to make room for martial arts. Maybe he's now a teacher, so risking his hands is less of a concern. Maybe he's kind of stupid so he doesn't see the problem; just because he's a surgeon doesn't mean he has common sense. Some of the densest, most clueless people I deal with at work are brilliant engineers. Maybe he learned the martial art first and then studied medicine; after all, a lot of kids get enrolled in martial arts classes.

And that's not even getting into the fact that in this game, "Iron Palm" doesn't exist. There's just an unarmed combat skill. Perhaps our surgeon has learned Taekwondo, which is mostly kicking. Or Judo which is mostly throws and redirecting opposing attacks.
You don't seem to read for comprehension
Mmmm.
gainsay anything put to you that you either disagree with
Yeah. What a strange thing for someone to do.
that you completely misconstrue the meaning of... inevitably (and erroneously) seeing it as nonsense, and responding against what was often not been proposed.
Couldn't possibly be that you are unclear with your points. Far easier to just write off objections.

Re: "Classes" and customization

Posted: May 24th, 2020, 7:20 pm
by Gizmo
Drool wrote:
May 24th, 2020, 2:10 pm
Then what's the point? Did my previously mentioned murderous doctor suddenly gain the "Doctor Class" because I put "Dr." at the start of his name?
The point was that the OP was interested in the option of class names. :?
Since there are no classes, and there can't be any significant gameplay attached (no time left), the option to either auto-evaluate (or simply take user input) seems trivial enough to actually include—if they wished.
You've gone from...
:lol: Hell no. I haven't gone from anything to anywhere, this is ALL you; reacting to your inexplicable assumptions or mis-reading between the lines. "Wanting? insisting?", that's all you. ;)

I don't want any changes to the game; I have not been following it close enough to even know the state of the beta.
(If I had, then there might be some changes I'd want; but I didn't.)

As I recall from months—years!? back, I did not like the art style of the NPCs, and wanted the conversations to look a bit more realistic; more in line with the concept art.

Image

But I don't even think about it anymore; it will be whatever they make of it. I didn't back this one.

I read what you wrote and responded to the words you typed.
...and practically invented a new meaning for it.
It's not my fault you can't get your meaning across.
With you it certainly is; and always has been, for years. :x
Further, there is nothing stopping a Surgeon from learning martial arts, even one that involves breaking things with your hands. You don't start your lessons with punching cinder blocks. The whole point is to learn to do it without hurting yourself. Now, it's probably not the smartest thing in the world for a surgeon to do, but there's no cosmic force preventing him from doing it.
I had to read it twice and marvel. To completely miss the point, then use the missed point as a derisive concession in an afterthought. Image

Yes it's stupid—that was always the point; where even carefully attained success at it is still detrimental to the surgeon (and always with the risk of a career ending accident).

Some of the densest, most clueless people I deal with at work are brilliant engineers.
I believe you. An engineer friend of mine recounted a potential hire being asked for the volume of an unmarked beaker—said the guy took it home with him, and the next day returned with written equations... instead of filling it, and pouring the liquid into a measuring cup; that is what the next guy did.

And that's not even getting into the fact that in this game, "Iron Palm" doesn't exist.
And this of course doesn't matter. :shock:
The example was of a pair of mutually exclusive skills; the game doesn't have any of those either. It's a conceptual example to illustrate a point.
gainsay anything put to you that you either disagree with
Yeah. What a strange thing for someone to do.
It is a very strange thing for someone to do. Remember, "It ain't what you know... it's what you know that ain't so". It never even occurs to you that might be wrong, or not understanding the point. Ask? clarify? not a chance, you go straight to the response for whatever you decide it must have meant.
that you completely misconstrue the meaning of... inevitably (and erroneously) seeing it as nonsense, and responding against what was often not been proposed.
Couldn't possibly be that you are unclear with your points.
No. ;)
(...and supposing I had any doubt, not every time in nearly every post between us.)

***Now... I can understand you; you not understanding me is not my fault. I usually agree with your expressed opinions, in reviews, videos, and other posts. But in your replies to me, it's almost as though you were being maliciously obtuse. Not that I believe it.