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Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 13th, 2014, 3:58 pm
by catmorbid
So, met this random trader who had two puny guards. Had not much useful to trade, but since the guards looked so puny, I couldn't resist the temptation, so decided I'd embrace the inner bastard inside me, which grew upon the years playing Fallout 1 & 2...

As they all lay dead, I'm thinking to myself "Yay! easy loot from the stupid trader who went in the middle of wasteland with two bums acting as his "bodyguard" and thought to be safe. That'll teach them."

Imagine my face when i rolled over the corpse just to find all his trade items had "magically disappeared".

Hey, what is this crap!? No incentive to be a f*n bastard in Wasteland 2? Is this the kind of wasteland you want to portray?! One of the best features of Fallout 1 & 2 was the ability to kill every motherfucker in sight and loot every last thing they had. Including traders. That is if you had the guns and the balls to run through his guards. Too bad if the trader is dumb enough not to take care of himself.

So yeah. FIX THIS! This is ridiculous.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 13th, 2014, 9:40 pm
by BetaSpectre
Well...I agree that you should be able to loot dead people when you go raider, but even in fallout it didn't always work like that.

At any rate this is something the devs should consider, although for balance they may have intended for merchants to be unlootable. (I want more grey/black options)

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 1:04 am
by CaptainPatch
I agree that a trader's entire inventory should be collectible loot upon his demise. HOWEVER, it certainly would make a HUGE incentive to Chaotic players that want to get rich quick and easy. So much so, that many/most players may very well go that route -- to the detriment of the game.

An underlying principle of WL and WL2 is that as an organization, the Rangers see themselves as being "Good Guys". Good Guys do NOT murder merchants, and then steal that merchant's goods. Rangers are supposed to hunt down and eliminate such brigands. And that means that any Ranger party does anything of the sort would be declared NOT-Rangers, and their pictures should appear on Wanted posters all over the Wasteland. For the Ranger organization to NOT issue such posters would cause a LOT more negative PR than the news getting around that some Rangers went rogue. (Which itself would be bad enough. Meaning that rogue ex-Rangers would be a high priority for disposal.)

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 1:28 am
by Crosmando
Actually, traders in WL2 look specifically like they have been set-up in such a way to facilitate the ability to kill and loot them. That trader in the desert only has one thing to trade, the AN-94 as I remember, and it's pretty cheap, so even if you did look him you wouldn't gain much at all, as well as their being possible repercussions for killing an innocent.

Even the well-stocked Trader like the guy at Rail Nomads, well he had his entire store rigged with explosives if someone tries to rob him, I haven't actually tried killing him to see if it does blow up but it does sound like something designed to counter the kill merchant thing.

Also I assume killing the merchant at Highpool would also make you auto-hostile with the whole town,I do know killing townies outside that building at Highpool makes you auto-hostile with the trader and the mayor/doctor inside, so I assume it's visa-versa too.

And I agree you should be able to loot the inventory of anyone you kill, disappearing inventories from merchants was in Baldur's Gate and I hated it, not because I normally play that way but because it makes the world feel that much more fake. You know in Fallout it was only really when I started playing around massacring entire towns like Junktown just for the loot, that I realized just how much freedom you truly had in the game.

That said, their should be consequences for this.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 1:57 am
by catmorbid
Crosmando wrote: That said, their should be consequences for this.
My sentiment exactly!

Allow us to embrace our inner bastard, and let us have a chance to get rich quick, but show us some consequences for it.

All I demand is that I, as a player, would not to be underestimated, handheld or treated in a condescending way.

Freedom + Attention to detail + Consequences. That's the key to success here.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 2:21 am
by Grohal
Absolutely right, killed people - even traders - should have every item they would carry with them.
Of course, IF you have for example Angela Deth with you, she should side with the trader. Only because the player decides he wants to play a gang of murdering rapists, doesn't mean every NPC should join the rampage - I'd even say most shouldn't.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 4:42 am
by SagaDC
catmorbid wrote:Freedom + Attention to detail + Consequences. That's the key to success here.
Well honestly, those consequences might be game-ending. They've already stated that there's a scenario in place for if/when the players stray too far from the principles that the Desert Rangers were founded on. Apparently it involves something along the lines of being ousted from the rangers and hunted by death squads, with the main storyline closing off as a result.

All in all, probably not worth the fleeting benefits of a wandering merchant's meager stock.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 5:05 am
by Crosmando
It wouldn't have to be instant expulsion, Vargas could just call you up on the radio some time after the fact and say he got word that your Ranger squad had killed civilians, he could say the wastes are tough and circumstances are unclear, but issue a warning to your party. Kill civilians again and he demotes you for unbecoming actions in the field, so all your Rangers lose a level. I suppose eventually if you kept doing it you'd get expelled.

But I'm only thinking of Arizona mind you, in LA/California beyond the reach of Ranger Citadel, you should be able to do whatever you want and consequences should remain local.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 5:56 am
by Arcanix
Im all for that the traders doesnt have their vendor list as loot if you kill them. Their guards is ok. Reason is twofold.

1. Breaks ingame economy. Rendering the barter toon useless. Just perfect your combat prowess.
2. Teaches the player the fast track to "seccess" through immoral means.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 6:12 am
by catmorbid
Arcanix wrote:Im all for that the traders doesnt have their vendor list as loot if you kill them. Their guards is ok. Reason is twofold.

1. Breaks ingame economy. Rendering the barter toon useless. Just perfect your combat prowess.
2. Teaches the player the fast track to "seccess" through immoral means.
1. It only breaks the economy if the traders are unprotected or protected by incompetent guards. Surround them with dudes in combat armor and heavy guns, and whoopsie doo, maybe the player will think twice. Also, who says the stuff needs to be on corpse. Have it under lock and key. Maybe with a few traps. Mobile traders should have caravan and immobile traders should have storage space.

2. That's no lesson in of morality. That's a lesson in false expectations and broken verisimilitude. A lesson in morality would be the game giving you actual consequences for being an immoral asshole.

In Fallout 1, try going to the gunrunners, or even the gun trader in Hub, and stealing his stuff. You'll soon see how easy it is, when implemented correctly.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 6:19 am
by Grohal
catmorbid wrote:
Arcanix wrote:Im all for that the traders doesnt have their vendor list as loot if you kill them. Their guards is ok. Reason is twofold.

1. Breaks ingame economy. Rendering the barter toon useless. Just perfect your combat prowess.
2. Teaches the player the fast track to "seccess" through immoral means.
1. It only breaks the economy if the traders are unprotected or protected by incompetent guards. Surround them with dudes in combat armor and heavy guns, and whoopsie doo, maybe the player will think twice. Also, who says the stuff needs to be on corpse. Have it under lock and key. Maybe with a few traps. Mobile traders should have caravan and immobile traders should have storage space.

2. That's no lesson in of morality. That's a lesson in false expectations and broken verisimilitude. A lesson in morality would be the game giving you actual consequences for being an immoral asshole.

In Fallout 1, try going to the gunrunners, or even the gun trader in Hub, and stealing his stuff. You'll soon see how easy it is, when implemented correctly.
Or to make it short: the more wares the trader has the more weapons, traps and ways to die should hit you once you try to get greedy. This way the economy is not broken - not that it matters THAT much in a singleplayer game (I don't think 5 traders will starve, because the player robs the big number 6 :mrgreen: ).

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 6:37 am
by GodComplex
CaptainPatch wrote:I agree that a trader's entire inventory should be collectible loot upon his demise. HOWEVER, it certainly would make a HUGE incentive to Chaotic players that want to get rich quick and easy. So much so, that many/most players may very well go that route -- to the detriment of the game.

An underlying principle of WL and WL2 is that as an organization, the Rangers see themselves as being "Good Guys". Good Guys do NOT murder merchants, and then steal that merchant's goods. Rangers are supposed to hunt down and eliminate such brigands. And that means that any Ranger party does anything of the sort would be declared NOT-Rangers, and their pictures should appear on Wanted posters all over the Wasteland. For the Ranger organization to NOT issue such posters would cause a LOT more negative PR than the news getting around that some Rangers went rogue. (Which itself would be bad enough. Meaning that rogue ex-Rangers would be a high priority for disposal.)
Your Rangers may be good, mine will be utilitarian enforces of justice. And justice requires loot. So I will most certainly consider killing lowly traders for the greater good, and besides, innocence proves nothing.

Besides, random encounters break the economy as there is an infinite number and therefore an infinite amount of loot and when there is an infinite supply there is no demand. So they should have their entire inventories lootable. If this is a problem, have them carry less loot.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 6:38 am
by frozyx
You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 6:40 am
by GodComplex
frozyx wrote:You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.
Sounds like a poor choice to refuse to trade with someone whose prone to resolving problems with violence. If anything they should give you a discount for reducing competition.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:07 am
by Arcanix
catmorbid wrote:
Arcanix wrote:Im all for that the traders doesnt have their vendor list as loot if you kill them. Their guards is ok. Reason is twofold.

1. Breaks ingame economy. Rendering the barter toon useless. Just perfect your combat prowess.
2. Teaches the player the fast track to "seccess" through immoral means.
1. It only breaks the economy if the traders are unprotected or protected by incompetent guards. Surround them with dudes in combat armor and heavy guns, and whoopsie doo, maybe the player will think twice. Also, who says the stuff needs to be on corpse. Have it under lock and key. Maybe with a few traps. Mobile traders should have caravan and immobile traders should have storage space..
1. You dont sell the gurads corpses, you sell the stuff you just looted. Hence the "the ability to kill every motherfucker in sight and loot every last thing they had" rethoric.
2. Ill show you who said it, in this thred.
catmorbid wrote:Hey, what is this crap!? No incentive to be a f*n bastard in Wasteland 2? Is this the kind of wasteland you want to portray?! One of the best features of Fallout 1 & 2 was the ability to kill every motherfucker in sight and loot every last thing they had. Including traders. That is if you had the guns and the balls to run through his guards. Too bad if the trader is dumb enough not to take care of himself.

So yeah. FIX THIS! This is ridiculous.
There you go.

catmorbid wrote:2. That's no lesson in of morality.
Judging from the quoted above posts maybe you shouldnt pass judgement on morality issues.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:10 am
by Grohal
GodComplex wrote:
frozyx wrote:You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.
Sounds like a poor choice to refuse to trade with someone whose prone to resolving problems with violence. If anything they should give you a discount for reducing competition.
I am sure by "refusing to trade" he means "open fire on sight". :mrgreen:

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:13 am
by Arcanix
GodComplex wrote:
frozyx wrote:You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.
Sounds like a poor choice to refuse to trade with someone whose prone to resolving problems with violence. If anything they should give you a discount for reducing competition.
How about random thug knocked on your door then proceeded to kill off your family for the house loot. The next day that thug returned asking you to buy that stuff back.

Would you?

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:28 am
by GodComplex
Grohal wrote:I am sure by "refusing to trade" he means "open fire on sight". :mrgreen:
See, they're bad people, and bad people need to suck the pipe.
Arcanix wrote:How about random thug knocked on your door then proceeded to kill off your family for the house loot. The next day that thug returned asking you to buy that stuff back.

Would you?
No, I'd be dead. False analogy is false.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:33 am
by edmondo
Grohal wrote:
GodComplex wrote:
frozyx wrote:You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.
Sounds like a poor choice to refuse to trade with someone whose prone to resolving problems with violence. If anything they should give you a discount for reducing competition.
I am sure by "refusing to trade" he means "open fire on sight". :mrgreen:
Exactly :mrgreen:

Or if they don't trust you anymore, make the prices be higher.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Posted: March 14th, 2014, 7:36 am
by Arcanix
GodComplex wrote:
Arcanix wrote:How about random thug knocked on your door then proceeded to kill off your family for the house loot. The next day that thug returned asking you to buy that stuff back.

Would you?
No, I'd be dead. False analogy is false.
The thug killed your family, not you. False assumption.