Killing and looting traders

For all Wasteland 2 discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

SagaDC
Global Moderator
Posts: 3504
Joined: May 2nd, 2012, 5:51 am

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by SagaDC » March 14th, 2014, 9:26 pm

Drool wrote:
SagaDC wrote:1) Wandering Merchants should be finite. If you kill some, there should be less chance of encountering any.
I quite like this. It also shouldn't be a threshold ("Kill three and there's no more"). I'd like to see sliding reactivity. Fewer merchants with better guards, higher prices, etc.
I briefly considered suggesting that the death of wandering traders (whether intentional or accidental) should be reflected with some kind of local or global price-hike (to represent higher demand), but I discarded the idea. Higher demand would be reflected both with higher selling prices - but also with higher buying prices, since the merchants would be more eager to buy wares so they could resell them. It would really just end up being effectively the same 'economy', just with higher prices - 'though I suppose it would reduce the effective 'value' of randomly found scrap (since that wouldn't be price-adjusted).

But reducing the available stock at established settlement-based vendors might be another ideal consequence. With less wandering merchants coming into town to unload their wares, shops would have less to sell, meaning more limited goods to browse through while you're in town.

User avatar
Yuri
Explorer
Posts: 308
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 7:03 pm

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Yuri » March 14th, 2014, 9:37 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
Yuri wrote:NPC should react according to their characters, no arguing there. But core four are under my control and even suggesting they do something behind my, player's, back is just the worst.
In which case, you are NOT roleplaying four distinct characters. Instead, you are roleplaying ONE mass-mind with four appendages. If you really want to do some _honest_ roleplaying, play at least one --probably 2 -- characters that reflect HQ's idea of "proper moral orientation". [You'll know you're on track if you start behaving in a schizoid manner, depending on which character you are currently playing.
Your horse is practically a T-rex. But I humor you. I know what roleplaying is. There is quote from one of my old posts.
I already have three full parties and tried to "emulate" their behavior and party dynamic. It arouse a few question.

Let's say my second party's leader will "disappear", stealth his way to a leader of certain organisation and kill him. Then leave as quietly.
Will it make organisation hostile?
It most likely will, I know.

Another situation is like this. My third party's leader is pretty shady character but received relatively straight subordinates. When party gets to California, away from HQ, if they'll try to get in the way of "business" again or he already hold enough grudge, he will try to dispose of them. I'm not expecting to be able to play two independent hostile parties so I'll have to resolve it in a more simple way. What I'm planning is leader will order clearance of a small house where he already placed a bomb. If rangers survive they will immediately figure out what's going on and try to kill him. I will leave results of this confrontation to a dices. So, there is my question.
I know we can target any NPC but will it work for your original four-members party?
And no, your argument is not valid. It's not for you to decide how people play and insult them by assuming they can't come up with plausible explanation for their characters behavior.

User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1077
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Grohal » March 15th, 2014, 12:24 am

Drool wrote:
SagaDC wrote:1) Wandering Merchants should be finite. If you kill some, there should be less chance of encountering any.
I quite like this. It also shouldn't be a threshold ("Kill three and there's no more"). I'd like to see sliding reactivity. Fewer merchants with better guards, higher prices, etc.
I approve this idea. :mrgreen:
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

User avatar
CaptainPatch
Grandmaster
Posts: 2806
Joined: March 31st, 2012, 12:38 am
Location: San Rafael, CA
Contact:

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 15th, 2014, 12:55 am

Yuri wrote:And no, your argument is not valid. It's not for you to decide how people play and insult them by assuming they can't come up with plausible explanation for their characters behavior.
Who is insulting who? You want to stick EVERYONE with the game that you think is "right"; I want them to be stuck with my idea of what would be "right" -- for _this_ game. There are already scores of games that do it your way. But how many games are out there where the players need to roleplay a script that sets a few parameters? In this case, that of a Law upholding officer of the Law.

If the game revolved around any old mix of general population of Wasteland citizens, I'd say your approach was just fine. But forgive me if I am of the opinion that those that profess a need and desire to bring Law to post-Apocalyptia should at least try to adhere to the Law they supposedly are trying to enforce.
Last edited by CaptainPatch on March 15th, 2014, 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."

User avatar
GodComplex
Master
Posts: 1342
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 5:21 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by GodComplex » March 15th, 2014, 1:33 am

As a side note, anyone encounter any traders selling kitchens yet? I think we could all agree that killing them, looting the corpse of all it's lint and sinks would be of great value to the world.
1/3 of my brain says blue radiation might be cool
1/3 says stop being overcritical
1/3 says a Baby Ruth could have prevented this situation
~Damoriel

User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1077
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Grohal » March 15th, 2014, 2:34 am

GodComplex wrote:As a side note, anyone encounter any traders selling kitchens yet? I think we could all agree that killing them, looting the corpse of all it's lint and sinks would be of great value to the world.
Absolutely. :mrgreen:
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

User avatar
Arcanix
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 5:35 am

Yuri, its the chosen setting for the game "series". As for the cause and effects. Thats how CRPG currently works. Patch explained it in detail so i dont hvae to.

Sidenote: If that merchant was a part of a chain quest or a plot further down the line your game experience would be impaired. In essence, you get to kill everyone and after that you cant do jack other than reroll. if thats what YOU want, then by all means knock yourself up. Maybe just maybe not everyone wants that.

Traders selling kitchens? You can judge a man by the kitchen he has. Very important not to kill them.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

User avatar
Yuri
Explorer
Posts: 308
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 7:03 pm

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Yuri » March 15th, 2014, 8:56 am

Arcanix wrote:Sidenote: If that merchant was a part of a chain quest or a plot further down the line your game experience would be impaired. In essence, you get to kill everyone and after that you cant do jack other than reroll. if thats what YOU want, then by all means knock yourself up. Maybe just maybe not everyone wants that.
I ignore stupid accusations. Just explain to me how loot on merchants interfere in any way with your playstyle? Same question for CaptainPatch. Who's really forcing their view on others here?

User avatar
Arcanix
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 9:27 am

Yuri, it would appear that you do. In a colorful verbose manner.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

User avatar
snakeoil
Adventurer
Posts: 608
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 4:33 am

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by snakeoil » March 15th, 2014, 10:24 am

Yuri wrote:This is not a game for five years old. I don't need a fucking lesson in morality. And again, if you shoot a merchant in a desert and kill all witnesses how the fuck anyone find out about it? Unless NPC is with you. But even then I don't believe all of them are saints. Some may even suggest an ambush. It's not a fucking justice league. You look like a bunch of whining little kids. And even if it breaks economy so what? It's a consequence of your action. That's beyond lame to promote a game like one that not judge you morally and done for mature audience and then not only self-censoring it all the way but killing world logic by shit like this and force you into a shoes of stupid american superheroes. WTF.
yuri is right, it would be the more realistic and mature way not to force a moral decision on the party just because they are (the self proclaimed!) police of the wasteland. its a somewhat childish idea to think that people who claim to be "good necessarily ARE "good".I dont have to come with countless reality based examples here...

of course the loot must include all trading goods and of course the trader must be armed and protected according to the value his goods have. they should also use the equipment they are trading (+own stuff they dont trade) to protect themselves. travelling traders may have strong bodyguards or not too expensive goods. local traders should be extremely fortified.

User avatar
CaptainPatch
Grandmaster
Posts: 2806
Joined: March 31st, 2012, 12:38 am
Location: San Rafael, CA
Contact:

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 15th, 2014, 10:27 am

Yuri wrote: Who's really forcing their view on others here?
Uhm, both of us? You are being fairly strident about, "IT _MUST_ BE DONE MY WAY!" The game design really can't be all things to all people. It has to chart a path according to the environment parameters that the premise creates. In WL, the characters, Rangers, are officers of the Law, (such as it is). So doesn't it follow that those officers of the Law _should_ endeavor to enforce the Law? Even upon themselves? I think we can be fairly certain that murder and theft are deemed as being "against the Law".

Historically, pretty much EVERY Law agency of noteworthy size -- I figure the Desert Rangers would be equivalent to about a State Police -- had some kind of Internal Affairs department. Yes, there WILL inevitably be some bad eggs that slip through the cracks, and become self-serving criminals wearing badges. But even the Texas Rangers (which the Desert Rangers are modeled after) "policed their own". (I can list several notable cases where law-breaking Rangers were taken down by their fellow Rangers if you like.) But the agencies DO try to root them out.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."

User avatar
snakeoil
Adventurer
Posts: 608
Joined: April 16th, 2012, 4:33 am

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by snakeoil » March 15th, 2014, 11:30 am

there is no law, thats the point. the desert rangers are a fraction like any other. and as i said, just because they claim to have a higher moral doesnt mean it civilizes their behaviour. the common "trust no one" is especially true in the wasteland scenario.

User avatar
Arcanix
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 12:25 pm

snakeoil wrote: the common "trust no one" is especially true in the Fallout scenario.
Corrected.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

User avatar
CaptainPatch
Grandmaster
Posts: 2806
Joined: March 31st, 2012, 12:38 am
Location: San Rafael, CA
Contact:

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 15th, 2014, 4:55 pm

snakeoil wrote:there is no law, thats the point. the desert rangers are a fraction like any other. and as i said, just because they claim to have a higher moral doesnt mean it civilizes their behaviour. the common "trust no one" is especially true in the wasteland scenario.
So, in your vision, the Rangers are no different from any other group of thugs or raiders? Your basic "Might makes Right" philosophy? Their motto is, "Fais ce que tu voudras" ("Do what thou wilt")? How disillusioning. And disappointing.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."

User avatar
Crosmando
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5136
Joined: January 3rd, 2013, 8:48 am

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Crosmando » March 15th, 2014, 6:12 pm

Well, the Rangers are a gang like the others. How else can you categorize them realistically? They aren't a military or police force because the government no longer exists, a military or police is defined by being supplied/funded by it's parent government, which rules out the Rangers. Yes they have a lot of military trappings such as ranks and uniforms, and they generally are a benign, even benevolent force, but there's no rule that a gang must always be evil. As far as the game/s show there's no legal system with judges and prosecutions. Rangers will generally just kill people who are committing crimes, but then again there doesn't seem to be a list of things that are prohibited by the Rangers, it's just general things like murder.

I mean the fact that the Rangers used to take gang-like names such as "Snake", "Thrasher", "Hell Razor" at least implies that the Rangers did at least start off as a gang with military trappings.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

User avatar
Arcanix
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 7:31 pm

Crosmando wrote: but there's no rule that a gang must always be evil.
Does this apply to al-Qaida?
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

User avatar
CaptainPatch
Grandmaster
Posts: 2806
Joined: March 31st, 2012, 12:38 am
Location: San Rafael, CA
Contact:

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 15th, 2014, 7:36 pm

Well, at the time of the Apocalypse, there were some very definite and precise laws on the books. At any point did _anyone_ declare those laws null and void? Was there any formal dissolution of the USA or the States of Arizona and Nevada? For all practical purposes, the region has been in an extended "State of Emergency". So the laws are there, but generally assumed to be not in effect. Why? Because of the absence of anyone willing to put their lives on the line to enforce those laws. Until the advent of the Rangers that is.

The fact that the Rangers DO put their lives on the line for the benefit of others I believe is what distinguishes them from gangs of thugs and raiders. Thugs and raiders are pretty focused on what is beneficial to themselves, and to hell with everyone else. Rangers, otoh, quite regularly carry out their "duties" for which they themselves gain nothing, other than a reinforced degree of civilization and Rule of Law.
Last edited by CaptainPatch on March 15th, 2014, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9785
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Drool » March 15th, 2014, 8:13 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:Historically, pretty much EVERY Law agency of noteworthy size -- I figure the Desert Rangers would be equivalent to about a State Police -- had some kind of Internal Affairs department.
Radley Balko would probably have plenty to say about the effectiveness of said departments.
Well, at the time of the Apocalypse, there were some very definite and precise laws on the books. At any point did _anyone_ declare those laws null and void? Was there any formal dissolution of the USA or the States of Arizona and Nevada?
That's rather implied by being post-apocalypse.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
dorkboy
Master
Posts: 1772
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 10:37 am

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by dorkboy » March 15th, 2014, 8:16 pm

i'm more concerned about the game economy/loot balance when not killing traders, tbh.
marmelade & jam

User avatar
Arcanix
Master
Posts: 1092
Joined: October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 9:03 pm

The only reason people want the apocalypse is that any and all laws can be declared null and void. With the "anything goes" notion they feel that the free will truely will be free.

Not so sure about that.

Only organizations like the Desert Rangers and the Brotherhood of Steel can uphold any, if only fragmented, human dignity there is left. Sure, they are driven by their own agenda but their overall benevolece distinguish them from gangs preoccupied by basic survival.

Perish by mutual slaughter because of free will is not an alternative in this case, if you ask me.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests