Killing and looting traders

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Yuri
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Yuri » March 15th, 2014, 9:05 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:
Yuri wrote: Who's really forcing their view on others here?
Uhm, both of us? You are being fairly strident about, "IT _MUST_ BE DONE MY WAY!" The game design really can't be all things to all people.
Except what I want doesn't interfere in ANY way with your playstyle. Your's interfering with playstyle of other people. That's why I asked this question. If it will be in game nothing going to change for you. Why do you care?
Historically, pretty much EVERY Law agency of noteworthy size -- I figure the Desert Rangers would be equivalent to about a State Police -- had some kind of Internal Affairs department. Yes, there WILL inevitably be some bad eggs that slip through the cracks, and become self-serving criminals wearing badges. But even the Texas Rangers (which the Desert Rangers are modeled after) "policed their own". (I can list several notable cases where law-breaking Rangers were taken down by their fellow Rangers if you like.) But the agencies DO try to root them out.
I don't mind going against internal affairs and getting early game over. That's an option. Aren't it good for RPG to have a lot of options? Yes, I'm thinking of creating a crew of "crooked cops" from The Shield in one of my later playthroughs. Why do you want to rob me of this ability?

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 15th, 2014, 9:10 pm

Yuri wrote:Why do you want to rob me of this ability?
According to the devs it wasnt meant to be.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 15th, 2014, 10:05 pm

Drool wrote:
Well, at the time of the Apocalypse, there were some very definite and precise laws on the books. At any point did _anyone_ declare those laws null and void? Was there any formal dissolution of the USA or the States of Arizona and Nevada?
That's rather implied by being post-apocalypse.
That is to say, they have been assumed to no longer be in effect. But to be precise, no one actually declares them to be null and void. Rather, those that choose to violate those laws figures that it is okay to do so primarily because there is no one taking action to enforce the laws. About the only time that anyone bothers to officially declare existing laws to be null and void is when there is a new group that appears and declares themselves to be "in charge" and they announce their laws. (Which most likely boils down to, "Do what we tell you to do -- or else.") Either way, there _were_ laws in place -- but not enforced -- or there is a new set of laws -- which _are_ enforced.

Basic Law itself is actually pretty simple, and nearly everyone understands that adhering to that Law is Right while violating that Law is Wrong. The foundation pretty much boils down to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Don't want to be murdered? Don't murder anyone. Don't want to be robbed? Don't rob anyone. If you're drowning, would you want someone to rescue you? Then if you see someone that needs rescuing, do what you can to rescue them. Etc. If that is the ONLY Law that the Rangers choose to enforce, then Humanity in the Wasteland has taken a significant step towards regaining civilization after everything went to hell in a hand basket.
Last edited by CaptainPatch on March 16th, 2014, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Woolfe » March 16th, 2014, 4:02 am

Can we not start the whole are the Rangers just a bunch of Paramilitary goons argument again :roll: :D

I'm pretty sure the last 3 or 4 threads hashed that out well (You missed at least one Captain Patch. It was a doozy).

One of the big differences in this game to say Fallout. Is that you don't wholly choose your role.

In Wasteland you are a Ranger. Which implies a certain degree of "structure"(for want of a better word) around you getting into and remaining in the Rangers.

So the core of this game is that you ARE a Ranger. So if something happens that results in you no longer being a Ranger, should the game continue. My preference in this case is no. BUT I am not advocating that you are prevented or forced into moral high ground everytime you play.
This game should be about give an take. Maybe you play as a group of "Get the job done, by fair means of foul guys". So you get wrapped over the knuckles but because you are succeeding you are given leeway. Maybe just enough leeway to hang yourself with.

Bah. My point is, managed intelligently, this sort of element of the game could be really interesting for some players, who might like pushing it to the limits, and walking a fine line.

*Shrug* Anyway at this stage I think the point was made and if the Devs have been reading this they'll probably go the path of least resisitance. As I have a feeling that a truly complex system for this may be more work than it is worth.
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Grohal » March 16th, 2014, 4:11 am

It should not be "you are either a ranger or you are dead", BUT if you go against the rangers the killer-commandos they send after you should be really, really hard - I'd say even among the deadliest opponents you'll meet in this game. And they should also reach you in the second part, they send you there so they can also send others there. Plus finding people who wanna trade with you or even meet you (other than on gunpoint) should get harder and harder with each murder. But the main-quest-line should still be doable of course. This way everybody should be happy, even the "CHOICES and consequences"-people who embrace the dark side. :mrgreen:
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by snakeoil » March 16th, 2014, 4:18 am

sorry patch, but in the end you try to force your moral on other players while they do not. deciding to see the desert rangers as just another faction wont hurt your gameplay in any way but it would fit the setting. having no space for interpretation, is not cool and is certainly not RPG.

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by J2K » March 16th, 2014, 10:22 am

If killing Bobby in WL1 didn't get you thrown out of the rangers, I doubt offing a random trader in 2 would.

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by SagaDC » March 16th, 2014, 11:21 am

J2K wrote:If killing Bobby in WL1 didn't get you thrown out of the rangers, I doubt offing a random trader in 2 would.
That would only really apply if the traders started shooting at you, first. Because that's what Bobby did. He was distraught after a misunderstanding with his dog and he opened fire on the rangers, who then (canonically) returned fire and killed him.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, but the comparison doesn't really fly.

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Grohal » March 16th, 2014, 11:46 am

J2K wrote:If killing Bobby in WL1 didn't get you thrown out of the rangers, I doubt offing a random trader in 2 would.
I doubt (hardly) anyone would opt for being thrown out of the rangers if you kill one trader - maybe even by accident (hello Mr. Shotgun), it is more for the serial killer types.
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Woolfe » March 16th, 2014, 3:12 pm

Grohal wrote:
J2K wrote:If killing Bobby in WL1 didn't get you thrown out of the rangers, I doubt offing a random trader in 2 would.
I doubt (hardly) anyone would opt for being thrown out of the rangers if you kill one trader - maybe even by accident (hello Mr. Shotgun), it is more for the serial killer types.
Indeed. Once could be an accident. Twice is a damn unfortunate coincidence. Three times.. I think we have a problem.
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Arcanix » March 16th, 2014, 3:51 pm

Depends on what the Ranger codex says, in real life. In this game, what the devs says.
March 24th, 2014, 4:13 am
Drool wrote:WL2 being turn-based is bad enough.

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CaptainPatch
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by CaptainPatch » March 16th, 2014, 5:14 pm

Grohal wrote:I doubt (hardly) anyone would opt for being thrown out of the rangers if you kill one trader - maybe even by accident (hello Mr. Shotgun), it is more for the serial killer types.
Accidents happen; people know that. Sometimes collateral gets damaged. But if your party kills a trader and then ends up with his stuff, that looks pretty suspicious. Probably suspicious enough to damn the party in the Court of Public Opinion. The result would be -- should be! -- that the party's reputation plummets as fast as rumors spread.
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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Sjaj » March 23rd, 2016, 11:37 am

When were lootable merchants introduced? The decision to make traders easy scrap mountains is regrettable. Enemies don't drop their weapons so I don't understand why merchants in particular, of all humans, should be the exception.
Not only is scrap = xp (med packs), but there's also the issue of making grenades and missiles even easier to acquire.

Not directly related to this topic, but I'd appreciate being able to buy bigger (much bigger) item stacks, especially med packs.

(Yes, this is an old thread.)

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Crosmando » March 25th, 2016, 6:21 am

I think it was very early decision (I think I remember an interview where someone from Inxile said they wanted traders to be loot-able) which boiled down to that they did it because Fallout did it. Also traders don't have THAT much stuff on them, they just respawn their stuff every time you go out to the world map, so if you kill them you can't buy more ammo from them ever again.
Matthias did nothing wrong!

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Sjaj » March 25th, 2016, 1:55 pm

After you sell them items, they can have A LOT of stuff. That's the point; you can sell a heap of items and then get them all back + scrap. Unless they have limited scrap that drops as well (haven't tested it). Not that they have a shortage of it; stopped selling after getting 7k scrap.
I'd never wander around killing merchants, but there's this one specific instance where the merchant in question is part of a group that is made of not very nice people who can't wait for an excuse to attack.. won't go into light spoilers.

I see the reasoning process behind merchants not having many items on them by default; in case you kill them to not instantly break the economy (goal not achieved). This makes medic pack trips extremely annoying. So instead of salvaging the game's economy by not making merchant loot droppable, they chose economy-breaking realism and annoying back and forth shopping trips.
If realism was the reason, why don't human enemies drop their weapons when they die?

One rule that I imposed on myself is to not get any xp or loot from random encounters (there's one person who's benefiting from outdoorsman xp and does nothing else), but I'm not sure what to do with this. The availabilty of missiles and med packs is the problem. Can we have a hardcore mode that is independent from difficulty levels and doesn't affect party/enemy damage?

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by Binary-Blues16 » May 20th, 2016, 10:36 pm

Your NPC's left the group. It's simple. That's how Baldur's Gate dealt with alignment swings.

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Re: Killing and looting traders

Post by yennhikorea » July 4th, 2016, 8:55 pm

You can also have later merchants refuse to trade with rangers when they killed other merchants before.
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