No level cap

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Cile
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No level cap

Post by Cile » April 10th, 2012, 5:45 am

Level caps frustrate me. One of the draws of RPGs over other genres is levelling up and becoming more powerful as you go. A level cap takes that away from you.

For example, in Fallout 3 I was enjoying exploring the world and fully investigating everywhere I went. (There may or may not be any story elements behind the mystery door. But I'll at least get some exp for it) After I hit the level cap though there didn't seem like a lot of point in exploring random monster dens. I had max level, best gear, and there was no promise of lore or story elements, so may as well skip it. I combed every area in the first half of the game, then hit the max level and skipped through to the end fairly quick. After finishing the game I never bothered to go explore the areas I missed, other than 1 I specifically wanted to see.

In a game world as big as wasteland it would be terrible to lose half the motivation for exploring. If you really feel that, for example, level 20 should be max level, instead of removing levels after that just make them come significantly slower. I'd rather it start taking me 10 - 20 times as long to gain a level than to be told I'm not allowed to get any more. It may be a situation of I'll probably never level again, but if I continue to explore a lot I might.
It's like the Fallout 2 skill model, yes I can increase my skills far beyond 100%, but it starts taking a lot more points (and time) to do it. If I want the be an insanely good sniper, sneaker, pickpocket, or anything else, I can as long as I put the time into it.

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Re: No level cap

Post by zhrakkan » April 10th, 2012, 6:14 am

Agreed.

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The Tallest
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Re: No level cap

Post by The Tallest » April 10th, 2012, 6:29 am

Agreed. Also, don't make it so we level too quickly. FO3, NV, SKYRIM (though not as much), Oblivion and countless other games are guilty of this. You exit your first dungeon and you've leveled two or three times.
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Re: No level cap

Post by Drool » April 10th, 2012, 6:56 am

183 levels sounds about right...
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Re: No level cap

Post by Cile » April 10th, 2012, 7:13 am

Drool wrote:183 levels sounds about right...
If somebody wants to invest that much time playing why not? I'm not saying levels should always come at the same speed, you expect each level to take longer than the last. Just no need to put a cap on it.

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Re: No level cap

Post by infestor » April 10th, 2012, 7:15 am

how would that work if enemies' level do not upscale? you could probably take out the end boss with one punch if you are lvl 183 :)
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Re: No level cap

Post by Lanatir » April 10th, 2012, 9:10 am

infestor wrote:how would that work if enemies' level do not upscale? you could probably take out the end boss with one punch if you are lvl 183 :)
I remember quite vividly that in Bards Tale 3 my characters were level 89 when i completed the game. It is not unlikely for a game out of that 'classic bunch' old school games to have very very high levels, and they were still fun.

And here is a link for you where you can see how many levels you could actually acquire in the original game. (if you reset the disks over and over again and grinded like there is no tomorrow)

http://wasteland.wikis.ailis.de/wiki/Rank

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Re: No level cap

Post by Phaederuss » April 10th, 2012, 9:16 am

Nah a level cap is good to have so you have to think about how you level your characters.

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Rune
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Re: No level cap

Post by Rune » April 10th, 2012, 10:27 am

The low level cap in Fallout 3+ is because of monetization.
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Re: No level cap

Post by Lanatir » April 10th, 2012, 10:41 am

The only reasons for level caps are:
a) We wanna sell an expansion that increases level cap so we can make more money!
b) We wanna sell DLC that increases level cap so we can make more money!
c) We are too lazy to include more content, and we ran outta money cause we spent 98% of our money on Graphics!!

Since i am rather sure that InXile doesnt wanna go that way i am also sure that there wont be a Level cap, or of there is one, than it is high enough never to worry about.

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Re: No level cap

Post by krellen » April 10th, 2012, 10:55 am

infestor wrote:how would that work if enemies' level do not upscale? you could probably take out the end boss with one punch if you are lvl 183 :)
Level has only a periphery effect on power - especially in combat - in Wasteland. A Supreme Jerk probably has over 500 hit points and several attributes in the 100s, but they're not going to be exponentially more powerful than any other character with a Meson Cannon in Power Armour.
in my opinion

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Re: No level cap

Post by CaptainPatch » April 10th, 2012, 10:58 am

No level cap is a fine idea, BUT.... In WL, each level comes with a military title boost. So somewhere around level 30 or so you would be a 5-star General. What would you be 20 levels later? A 25-star General? :lol:
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Warin
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Re: No level cap

Post by Warin » April 10th, 2012, 11:49 am

I agree it's nice to be able to have something to always strive for like leveling higher and higher, but maybe there is another way then just counting up levels.

Maybe it could have a level cap, but once you reach that cap you can choose to gain something out of 5 choices say after every time you gain a certain amount of experience. This way it will keep you searching area's even after you hit max level, and you won't have anything saying your level 15 000. Just a thought.
DRA

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Re: No level cap

Post by stonetoes » April 10th, 2012, 12:04 pm

I would agree with this. We just have to hope that the game world will be large enough that it actually becomes an issue!

It will be especially important if we are given the option of importing old characters into a new game, which a few people have asked for.

Or if hardcore/difficult game modes give increased experience. There's not much point in getting more experience when you're going to hit the level cap half way through. Did Fallout 3 do that? I'm pretty sure you got more xp for playing on a harder difficulty, but you would hit the level cap long before you explored the whole game anyway. Thank god for mods.

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Re: No level cap

Post by Balls Out 3 » April 10th, 2012, 4:24 pm

Another reason I think some devs use level caps is just because it's an easy way to balance your game. It's rather lazy, if you ask me...and as outlined before, it detracts from the game. I vote no on level caps.

And yes, the idea to give players more EXP for playing on harder difficulties defeats the purpose. Don't do that, either.

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stonetoes
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Re: No level cap

Post by stonetoes » April 10th, 2012, 4:59 pm

Balls Out 3 wrote: And yes, the idea to give players more EXP for playing on harder difficulties defeats the purpose. Don't do that, either.
Haha, well I was about to argue with you, but I don't want to derail the thread. ;)

I agree with you on balancing the game. I think Bethesda had a weird way of handling this, because they had level caps in fallout 3, but F3 was one game where they were pretty inconsequentail. After a certain level, your character only became more diverse, not more powerful. The perks only went up to level 20 anyway, and you could max out half the skills by that time pretty easily, so making progress capped seemed so pointless. At least in terms of balancing combat anyway.

I suppose you can argue that ending up good at everything is against the theme of having to make hard decisions, but I get the feeling that in a squad based game that will happen even without a level cap.

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Re: No level cap

Post by GodComplex » April 10th, 2012, 6:26 pm

Screw balance, if I want to become the Übermensch and lay waste to all that stand in my path with nothing more than a crowbar and a smile, then let it be so.
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1/3 says stop being overcritical
1/3 says a Baby Ruth could have prevented this situation
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Drool
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Re: No level cap

Post by Drool » April 10th, 2012, 9:14 pm

Lanatir wrote:I remember quite vividly that in Bards Tale 3 my characters were level 89 when i completed the game. It is not unlikely for a game out of that 'classic bunch' old school games to have very very high levels, and they were still fun.
And Tarjan's flunkies could still kick your ass. Hell, Malefia in general was still pretty nightmarish at level 89. Then again, Bard's Tale 3 intended you to be that high. A maxed out Archmage already had the equivalent of 70 levels. Actually, thinking back, finishing at level 89 is pretty low. The last time I did it, I think I was 100+.
And here is a link for you where you can see how many levels you could actually acquire in the original game. (if you reset the disks over and over again and grinded like there is no tomorrow)
There's 183. Or, the list I had gave 183. Yours give 181, heh.
CaptainPatch wrote:No level cap is a fine idea, BUT.... In WL, each level comes with a military title boost. So somewhere around level 30 or so you would be a 5-star General. What would you be 20 levels later? A 25-star General?
Hardly. Level 30 was a Lieutenant. Level 50 was Combat Captain. There were quite a few made up ranks, and once you hit Sergeant at level 12, titles repeated. There's around 50 levels where your rank is General Argent.
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Re: No level cap

Post by CaptainPatch » April 10th, 2012, 9:28 pm

Never actually saw the complete rank table until just a moment ago: http://wasteland.wikis.ailis.de/wiki/Rank

I was amazed to see that the ranks actually go all the way up to Level _181_. And people seem to think that it is necessary to stress that there should be NO level cap? Anyone EVER make it that high? Then level cap might be a concern.
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Re: No level cap

Post by Drool » April 10th, 2012, 9:36 pm

Depends on the site, another one lists 183 levels. And yes, people have hit Supreme Jerk. The second character in this party made it. Lowest Attribute's at 22, highest is 100, and a MAXCON of 418. Uf.
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Not too late; make it eight!

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