GOTY Quirks

For all Wasteland 2 discussion that does not fit elsewhere, suggestions, feedback, etc. No spoilers allowed.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Drool » March 26th, 2015, 10:13 pm

SagaDC wrote:This really just seems like another attempt to make the game even more like Fallout, and less like Wasteland.
That's plagued this project from Day 1.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by IHaveHugeNick » March 26th, 2015, 11:03 pm

The elephant in the room is, PoE faced the very same challenges with people going mental over how dare you rename Strength to Might? This isn't like Baldur's Gate! , but they clenched their butts and did what they wanted anyways. And if reviews are any indication, it might have been worth it.

I gotta say the very same thing that makes all these Kickstarter projects possible - sudden wave of nostalgia and the powerful emotional connection we all have with the classic RPGs - is also the biggest challenge. I don't envy the job of trying to make all the backers happy, its like navigating through the minefield.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Ronin73 » March 27th, 2015, 2:27 am

SagaDC wrote:Yup, latest interview with Fargo confirms that Quirks and Perks are basically just Fallout-style Traits and Perks. I've got mixed feelings on that. I mean, I know that's what a lot of folks wanted, but I was really kind of hoping for something a little more innovative. This really just seems like another attempt to make the game even more like Fallout, and less like Wasteland.

But, on the other hand, I can't really complain about new content. Especially if I'm getting it for free.
Yeah pretty much how I feel. Sadly, it was going this route when SPLICES/CLASSIC was announced even though I really didn't want to believe it at the time.

SagaDC wrote:
EDIT - As an aside, if they are indeed designing the P&Q system with the party-based structure in mind, I'm hoping that the recruitable NPCs won't be neglected. I'd love to see some unique or semi-unique quirks on'em, to help to better set them apart (and hopefully to make some of the more terrible ones actually worth recruiting).
Yeah Scothmo should totally get some kind of bonus while drunk and some kind of penalty while sober :)
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Drool » March 27th, 2015, 12:05 pm

IHaveHugeNick wrote:The elephant in the room is, PoE faced the very same challenges with people going mental over how dare you rename Strength to Might? This isn't like Baldur's Gate!
Well, yes. Slightly different beasts, though. PoE was to be like or reminiscent of Baldur's Gate. Wasteland 2 is a sequel. Hewing closer to the source is expected with a sequel than a spiritual successor. Sadly, we kind of ended up with Wasteland 2: Fallout Van Buren Tactics Take Two.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Tets » March 29th, 2015, 11:26 am

sear wrote:we will certainly be keeping an eye on what people want to see.
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+ Bonus to be able to avoid encounters (on worldmap).
+ Bonus in evasion.
- Malus for leadership/npcs easier going rouge around the ranger.
- Malus for hit chance.

Reason: The real reason behind this idea is the possibility to reduce (random) combat. You can more often avoid combat, but it might get a bit more tricky, if youre in combat. I know the outdoorsman skill allready influences the chance to avoid an encounter on the worldmap, but this would be an additional way to reduce random encounters even further from start, if you wish to. Bonus in evasion fits to the quirk, like the malus for hit chance and the chance of companions going rogue.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Tets » March 30th, 2015, 7:44 am

shake it up/relearing
Reallocate up to 4 Skillpoints
Reallocate up to 1 Attributepoint

Reason: I know "hardcore gamers" doesnt like this. But most people play a rpg one or two times. When they start they dont know exactly what they are doing, and how they want to play the game. So its good if they have the chance to reallocate some statpoints later on when they have a better understandling of the game. You can correct some mistakes youve probably made early on. Also you meet many npc companions, and you dont know which skills they have. This would allow you to reallocate invested skillpoints which might got useless because you met a new companion."Hardcore gamers" dont have to use this perk, they can choose a better one. But for the rest it could be a powerful perk, which makes the game more fun, because you can play the rangers you want. From a story perspective i have to say, that people change. They get better in one thing, worse in another. people change. So this perk isnt gamey or immersion breaking. Its fits perfectly into reality.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Zombra » March 30th, 2015, 10:23 am

Not bad Tets, I wouldn't be against a limited respec if you had to spend a Quirk point on it.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Woolfe » March 30th, 2015, 4:23 pm

Meh, I think allowing respec should be one of those large numbers of options, like Hardcore mode etc. Making it an in-game element, is kinda weird to me.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Mousey » April 6th, 2015, 12:35 pm

Personally I’m a little bit against having a Traits (‘Quirks’) system, but fine with a Perks system (Though I do like it that “Quirks and Perks” rhymes :). Some of the Traits that are going to be added sound quite quirky to me so ‘Quirks’ sounds more right to me.).

To me, having an initial Traits/Quirks system just makes a character that much more time consuming to make. I feel that the chargen system currently takes too long; and by watching some Youtube videos, some players around the world seem to agree with me. My big problem is that everything in character generation is spread across three pages (Roster and two character pages, vs. Fallout’s one page system). Adding Traits/Quirks might add a fourth page. So with a Trait/Quirks system, if you want to write up four characters you would page through 9 to 16 pages, instead of just four (& we all know how strangely time consuming it is, in WL2's chargen, to jump between pages on some peoples' systems). One of these forum pages has my all-in-one chargen page (probably on the “Ranger Corner character creation – tell us your preference” thread.). I suppose InXile could place a scroll bar along one side and combine all chargen pages.

I like the idea of adding a Perks system just because you get something new every level (or every 2, 3, or 4 levels).



(1) Some initial Quirks might be just like the Tag Skills used in FO. But to keep the: “pick-this-Trait-and-you-get-this-bonus-but-this-penalty” would still be in effect (E.g.: FO’s pick Fast Shot and you attack with –1 AP, but can’t aim). I’d call these Tag Skills: 'Knacks'. You might pick ‘Shotguns’ as your Knack (which means that skill would need half as many Survival Points to go up a level), but then have to pick another skill, which gets a penalty of costing twice as many points for it to go up a level.



OR: (2) To be different, have a more complicated: Quirks, Knacks, Combat Maneuvers, and Perks system.
You might have three points to spend amongst Quirks, Knacks, and Combat Maneuvers (while Perks are still only given in later level-up situations).
So (during character generation) for one character you might spend all three points on Knacks (either among three skills, or all on one skill, or two on one skill with one on another skill). For another character you might spend one point on knacks and then buy two Combat Maneuvers. For another character you might spend one point on each of the three. Etc… To me, this creates a delicious decision to make.

Quirks are still just a name change from Traits. Here are some examples of new Quirks:
“Raider Fellowship”: Get a bonus {charisma?} in conversations with raiders, because you appear/behave impressive to them; but you get a penalty to conversing with those that hate raiders.
“Skill Preference”, which gives that character a bonus to skills in a category. E.g., you might choose a category, say ‘Weapons’, and then they all cost only one point to reach skill level one (instead of 2 points), but the skills of another chosen category, say ‘Technical’, would all cost three points to get to level one.
“Like a kid”, gives you bonuses to speak with children, but penalties talking to adults. Very similar to FO3's 'Heart of a child' (or whatever they called it), in that you might then get special dialog when talking to kids.
“Intimidation” gives you a (hidden?) bonus to the Kick Ass skill, but you get a (hidden?) penalty to all other conversations. You easily piss others off. You have an anger management problem and tend to sneer a lot. Picking this may prevent you from picking the Kiss Ass skill, which goes dim in chargen and on your character sheet. Any skill points spent on Kiss Ass skill jump back to your skill point pool.
“Congenial converser”. This gives you a (hidden?) bonus to Kiss Ass skill, but prevents you from getting the Kick Ass skill (which goes dim in chargen and on your character sheet. Any points spent on Kick Ass jump back to your initial Skill Point pool.). You smile a lot and tend to speak in nice respectful tones. Doesn’t work on robots and tends to backfire against evil raiders.

Knacks would be similar to FO’s Tag Skills system (allowing that skill to need only half as many survival points to gain levels in, to a minimum cost of one point), so should only be gained during character generation. If allowed to place another build point on the same skill, it would halve again; if also allowed to place the third build point on the same skill, it would half again.

Combat Maneuvers would be things like: fast draw, fast reload, trip attack, dodge, blind-fighting, spring attack, disarm, whirlwind attack (melee), shot-on-the-run, cleave, bull rush, two-weapon fighting (this combat maneuver allows you to click on the Swap Weapon icon to move to the weapon/item in the other hand, costing you no AP to do so. FO:1/2/T strangely allowed you to swap weapons from a mini-gun to the secondary slot's mini-gun costing no AP to do. Does WL2 have that problem/issue?), opportunist, bonus with a particular weapon (could be increased long distance range, point blank range to-hit), fast reflexes (vs. AOE attacks), fire from vehicle bonus, charge attack, kick-to-the-nuts (doesn’t work against female opponents), etc.
The first level Combat Maneuvers (during chargen) should be rather lame, but those might be important prerequisites for the better ones you gain access to at higher levels.

Perks would be things like: alertness, ambidexterity (need the two-weapon fighting combat maneuver to get a bonus for.), bonus skill (E.g., outdoorsman, leadership, etc.), improved night vision (like in FO), reputation (with one group you dealt with), Contact (a special friend appears in the game with clues, or is a merchant who offers you special deals or access to special items.), Travel Karma (find better random encounters in the wasteland), poison resistance, radiation resistance, toughness, craft item [each time get, you get a new category to craft in: Chemistry (making bombs, making propellant and primer, making odd oils/salves/poisons/acids, etc.), Bullet swaging, Craft Coin, etc.]. Admittedly Craft Item would make more sense to have as: the characters met a trainer (or read book), got the schematics, got the tools, got the components, and then did this at a workbench; and probably should have a high enough skill in mechanical repair, gun crafting, or whatever.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by saintsfan » April 8th, 2015, 5:03 pm

Personally, I hope the Quirks, assuming they're basically just options you pick or don't pick at the beginning, aren't so much "+1 to speed and -15 carry weight" but are more personality/experience based.

For instance, two very intelligent people might have exceptionally different backgrounds that guide that intelligence. Perhaps something like "Ivy League" and "Student of the Wastes" being mutually exclusive and both requiring 8 intelligence to pick.

Ivy League would give you a flat bonus of say 2% to succeed on some "technical skills" like Surgeon and Computer Science, 2% less chance of critical failure with those skills, and more importantly, some dialog options where appropriate(whether just flavor or possibly acting as a speech skill on a couple of occasions).

Student of the Wastes would do the same things but with the more survival based skills. Something like Outdoorsman, Demolitions, and Animal Whisperer. Plus the potential dialog options.

Obviously that's just thrown together and you might want some kind of penalty as well, but it offers an in-game boost to some stats and mostly exists to add a few flavor options just to give the Ranger more personality.

Basically I think Quirks need to be almost solely focused around being quirky with some small benefits/penalties to the character. Maybe even have some that can only be gained through certain interactions or outcomes in-game.

Let the Perks have more of a focus on gameplay direct abilities. It would fit better with the idea of "leveling up" as well. When I played basketball, I focused a lot on becoming a better free throw shooter. I essentially leveled up a very specific part of my overall basketball skillset. In Wasteland perhaps your character gets really good at maintaining weapons, reducing the chances of his weapons jamming. This would require some investment into his overall skillset(Weaponsmithing to my Basketball) to be able to pick. Perks would be built around in-game mechanics and not your personality.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by SagaDC » April 8th, 2015, 5:38 pm

saintsfan wrote:Personally, I hope the Quirks, assuming they're basically just options you pick or don't pick at the beginning, aren't so much "+1 to speed and -15 carry weight" but are more personality/experience based.
Unfortunately, I honestly think this is exactly what we'll be getting. I'll be happy if it turns out I'm wrong, though. Really, given that this is a system that's essentially being tacked onto an already-finished game, any impact it has will be fairly shallow. The best we can probably hope for are some Traits that might slightly change the way we approach battles or challenges.
saintsfan wrote:Obviously that's just thrown together and you might want some kind of penalty as well, but it offers an in-game boost to some stats and mostly exists to add a few flavor options just to give the Ranger more personality.
I'd love if this were the case, but I really do think it's the sort of thing they'd need to plan around from an early point in development. I'd love to see something like a background-oriented Quirk (say, "Former Bandit") that provides some immediate starting bonus, but at the cost of later complications (such as wandering into a town, only to find out that the Former Bandit has a standing bounty on his head).

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Zombra » April 8th, 2015, 10:04 pm

Yeah. The upside is that once Quirks are "frosted" onto Wasteland 2, they'll be considered a core feature to be "baked in" to Wasteland 3 (20 years from now), so we can hope for specific story reactivity to them.
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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by sear » April 9th, 2015, 10:34 am

SagaDC wrote:
saintsfan wrote:Personally, I hope the Quirks, assuming they're basically just options you pick or don't pick at the beginning, aren't so much "+1 to speed and -15 carry weight" but are more personality/experience based.
Unfortunately, I honestly think this is exactly what we'll be getting. I'll be happy if it turns out I'm wrong, though. Really, given that this is a system that's essentially being tacked onto an already-finished game, any impact it has will be fairly shallow. The best we can probably hope for are some Traits that might slightly change the way we approach battles or challenges.
They'll be a mix. Some will change how you play rather significantly, while others will be a little more benign in their influence. Many of them might give you more situational benefits/drawbacks, or things that could be both an upside or a downside depending on the context, for instance.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by SagaDC » April 9th, 2015, 12:50 pm

sear wrote:They'll be a mix. Some will change how you play rather significantly, while others will be a little more benign in their influence. Many of them might give you more situational benefits/drawbacks, or things that could be both an upside or a downside depending on the context, for instance.
Well, like I said, I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong! I'm keeping my expectations tempered, though. And, to be fair, at the moment we have very little to go on beyond some creepy doll art and a few names. It makes it difficult to get an idea of what to expect. :)

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Tets » April 9th, 2015, 1:18 pm

i dont understand why it should be bad if (some) quirks and perks modify allready existing game stats in a way, in which its not possible with attributes and skills. i.e. +1 to speed and -15 carry weight.

A good system is based on few elements but allows great variance and depth. Of course its also nice to introduce a new game element with a perk, but modfiying allready existing stats in a different way than the attribute/skill system allows, doesnt seem bad to me neither.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Stinktier » April 10th, 2015, 12:26 am

Don't know what to call it, but it's kind of a tactical/leadership quirk. I thought of some variants.

Variant one: Lets one player move a full AP pots' worth before combat initiative is rolled in an encounter (but not shoot/throw), but comes at the cost of lower combat initiative.

Variant two (battle orders 1): Lets every player controlled unit take two or three steps worth (but not shoot/throw) at the beginning of the encounter but comes at the cost of lower combat initiative for the player with the quirk

Variant three (battle orders 2): Lets every player controlled unit spend all their AP on movement (but not shoot/throw) at the beginning of the encounter but makes the player with the quirk come last in combat sequence as if (s)he had the lowest combat initiative.

the battle order variants could have some "within leadership radius" clause if needed.

===
Steady aim: reduces the penalty for headshoting (by some amount that makes gameplay different) but comes at the cost of some amount of combat speed.


===
I know what you did last summer (grave robber):
If event trigged quirks will be implemented. If The player unit robs a grave, someone in the shadows saw it, which will have some few probably unfortunate/inconvenient/hilarious effects later on. The player is also told in text that (s)he can't shake of the feeling of that (s)he was being watched while doing the atrocity.

===
One more movement/tactically oriented quirk idea, scissored from a post i made in my personal experience thread over in the spoilers allowed forum:

"Shotguns seem unpopular because of the few times they shine. Here's two ideas to improve on that without just resorting to buffing damage/CtH/CtC. B1/First: Since quirks will be introduced, a quirk which lets one PC move a little (two or three steps) before consuming his/her normal AP pool would mean a shotgunner could have a reasonable chance to position him/herself to make the most of the shotguns' niche traits. Not sure what the tradeoff for such a quirk would be. Maybe loss of/penalty to evasion, thereby not risking making melees taking the quirk overpowered (or, make them more powered but in a glass cannon way)."

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by saintsfan » April 13th, 2015, 12:09 pm

Tets wrote:i dont understand why it should be bad if (some) quirks and perks modify allready existing game stats in a way, in which its not possible with attributes and skills. i.e. +1 to speed and -15 carry weight.

A good system is based on few elements but allows great variance and depth. Of course its also nice to introduce a new game element with a perk, but modfiying allready existing stats in a different way than the attribute/skill system allows, doesnt seem bad to me neither.
It's not bad. In fact, I think that's exactly what most Perks will and should do. But I'm guessing the Quirks are something you pick one time at character generation. I'm hoping that they aren't so stat focused and are more focused on the character's upbringing/personality/whatever.

Saga's idea of a bandit related one that maybe offers some unique dialogue, rewards, or even quest resolutions at some point but also forces you to deal with a bounty in another place would be awesome. As it is now, your Rangers only have the background you play up in your head. A couple of more in-game tools to foster that RP would be awesome to me. The Quirks seem like the perfect place for such a thing.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Stinktier » April 14th, 2015, 12:13 am

New quirk suggestion: Restless/I'm here to do something. Let's do something.

Makes a Ranger have a notable chance to go rogue, just like companions, but is compensated with some bonus. Maybe higher combat initiative?

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by Stuurminator » April 18th, 2015, 4:59 pm

Woolfe wrote:
Zombra wrote: Same goes with Perks. Make a ton of them, even if a lot of them aren't very good. This is essential to maintaining the feeling that my Rangers are unique. In this case, I am officially a proponent of quantity over quality. Having quantity and quality would be best, of course.
I get this, and agree with the premise.... Buuuuut... A bunch of really useful perks/quirks in a pile of rubbish ones is not "more" choice. You are still only ever going to take the good ones.
Speak for yourself. I've always preferred traits that spice up the gameplay to those that are simply "good". I dare say Gifted is one of my least favourite in the original Fallouts.

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Re: GOTY Quirks

Post by SagaDC » April 18th, 2015, 5:12 pm

Stuurminator wrote:Speak for yourself. I've always preferred traits that spice up the gameplay to those that are simply "good". I dare say Gifted is one of my least favourite in the original Fallouts.
Yup. Gifted was pretty much the "no-brainer" Trait, for anyone who wanted to min-max their character. Good in theory, but bad in actual practice. There's a good reason they didn't make it one of the returning Traits in New Vegas.

But, to be fair, attributes in Fallout probably meant a bit more than the attributes in Wasteland 2 do. Honestly, aside from maybe attributes that boost a player's Combat Initiative (which is THE power attribute), an incremental boost to most of the attributes will mean almost nothing for most rangers.

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