Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

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ZiN
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by ZiN » October 2nd, 2018, 3:28 am

thebruce wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 8:10 pm
*sigh* Not going to get into all this again. It's been discussed and debated ad nauseum in these forums over the past few years.
Gizmo wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 12:23 am
TheBruce is right, this has been explained to death already.
Yeah, newcomers please head this way, if you want to learn more.
Themadcow wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 1:22 am
As noted, this was pitched in the Kickstarter as grid based with optional free look - so quite a major departure from what was promised (probably the biggest).
Yeah, well they even forged those fake images of their design process, and made up fake news like making it "node based" and such, to give backers something to chew on. Of course all of those were lies, they knew very well that they're making a completely different game from the beginning. After all, they made Mage's Tale, so they only needed to add superficial RPG elements and an outsourced combat engine to make it "Bard's Tale". Pretty much the same as how Bethesda turned Fallout 3 into "Oblivion with guns".

kilobug
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by kilobug » October 2nd, 2018, 3:30 am

ZiN wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:29 am
Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am
Why is this something people are so upset about?
For me it's mostly due to InXile (the developers I had the most faith in, bringing back the RPG and dungeon-crawling genres to their former glory) being caught multiple times blatantly lying to their backers, taking them for fools, ignoring them, breaking promises and not delivering what they were supposed to.
I don't think it's a fair characterization of inXile. Complex projects (and such kind of games definitely are complex) evolve a lot during their life, things that seem good idea at the time of a KS campaign can end up not being so great once you actually start making the game, other ideas that feel better take priority, ... and you end up changing plans, and breaking "promises".

That's pretty natural in the life of a project - it's just usually happening behind the scenes and players don't realize it. With a Kickstarter it becomes all public, and I understand it generates frustration for backers. And I sure know your feeling - I backed because of Linux support, and still can't play the game (nor even know when I'll able to play it). I'm disappointed they don't even tell us when the Linux/Mac version will be done, but I won't go around calling them liars or taking us as fools, I know they do their best to deliver a great game with a limited team and budget.

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ZiN
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by ZiN » October 2nd, 2018, 3:44 am

Let's not forget about Brian Fargo's lies from Kickstarter update 34:
Brian Fargo, Feb 24 2017 wrote:Oh and by the way, all you dungeon crawl fans, we noted some saw the last combat video and thought we ditched grid-based movement. Not at all! We'll be excited to show more traditional, grid-based movement as well as other great features in updates to come!
So, instead of "sorry guys, we ditched the grid-based design to evolve the game" we got the usual lies and smokescreening. So, you haven't convinced me, kilobug, my characterization of InXile still stands.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by thebruce » October 2nd, 2018, 7:34 am

ZiN wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 3:28 am
Yeah, well they even forged those fake images of their design process, and made up fake news like making it "node based" and such, to give backers something to chew on. Of course all of those were lies, they knew very well that they're making a completely different game from the beginning.
Let's try to stay away from accusations of motivations. We don't know that there was intentional deception. We do know they favoured one route of development over another, but decisions were made the reasonings for which we aren't privy to. It may come out in time, but it can still absolutely be one of time, capability, mistaken planning, budgeting, etc. Not being 100% transparent about high end decisions like that isn't the same intentional deception. "breaking promises" from decisions made after the fact doesn't make those initial promises lies.

Brian's quote isn't untrue. We know they are still working on grid-based movement. It's just not released yet. I think wording for updates like that can be very touchy, and it's why companies have embraced "it'll be done when it's done" rather than setting specific release dates these days :P Don't say something you KNOW at the time to be untrue, lest you actually and legitimately be called out and labeled a liar, with evidence. For their own reputation, I tend to trust words first, until it can be proven there was foreknowledge and thus intentional deception.
But as we know decisions can change for unexpected extenuating circumstances. So there may be mistakes, really bad mistakes, ineptitude, or even just a change of direction and vision as time reveals new hurdles or ideas - that doesn't make the original statements lies unless the intent was never there in first place.

So let's avoid projecting antagonistic motivation in order to justify such claims of deception. ...until internal documents and communiques reveal such intentional deception :P

The fact of the matter is, the promises made surrounding the grid-based game mechanic were not met. That's really as far as we can objectively go at this point.
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Spectralshade » October 2nd, 2018, 1:46 pm

Gizmo wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 3:15 am
I am inclined to agree. They could spend a lot of time under the assumption that grid-step—itself (for its own sake) is what is wanted, and then feel like they wasted their time doing it—when grid-stepping for grid stepping sake, is meaningless when it is not supported by the rest of the game having been designed to be played using it; that is the draw and incentive for the feature. I'd not bother to scrutinize the game levels if the maps were inconsistent, and unstructured; with nothing to learn from them, (or to discover) that a cursory glance wouldn't reveal; no spinner traps, or confusing halls, no teleporters(?); does it even have pits used as more than just scenery?
isn't that really the story of alot of the "features" in the game?

a mishap of different features they thought people wanted, but since they never bothered designing the game around those features, the features end up feeling totally out of place and actively impacting on the gameplay experience in a negative way.

it's like nobody thought: "how can we design the game around these features so they work well?" and instead they thought: "we're gonna make this game and then throw in these features because they are on the list..."

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Gizmo » October 2nd, 2018, 2:30 pm

Yes.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Hieronymous Alloy » October 2nd, 2018, 4:06 pm

Gizmo wrote:
October 2nd, 2018, 12:23 am
Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am
Why is this something people are so upset about?

What are the gameplay benefits of grid based movement over full 3d? Seriously asking.
There should be several, but I don't understand how anyone can benefit from it now, this late into development, when the feature can only be cosmetically tacked on, instead of being a core system that was planned from the outset. :x

TheBruce is right, this has been explained to death already.

So in brief: Had this been done from the planning stage, there could have been the potential to use it in puzzles, and the potential to use it for mapping; and the potential for them to use it in scripting. It could mean that levels that are (logically/implied as) above or below each other could actually be aligned, such that a hole in the floor could exist exactly just where expected in the ceiling below; and if it wasn't —that was a possible clue to something concealed, or at least unusual, and worth investigating.

Dungeoncrawlers would sometimes hide secret rooms in the [structured] layout of the walls. These rooms could be suspected because of the surrounding layout that you would eventually know. In a grid based game, it can grab one's attention if the outside wall of a room is 11 steps, but the inside wall is 9.

You are correct that grid based exploration (necessarily) simplifies searching for hidden triggers & switches. Ideally these should be obvious to see when looked for, but easy enough to miss if unsuspected. Grid-step allows a cursory search to imply a detailed [10'x10'] search by the party without slowing the pace down too much, or burning out the player's interest.

On a large map the player might have fifty possible search locations in grid-step, but that same area in free-roam would be a painful and tedious endeavor to search; and with strong likelihood of losing track of what was searched already—and wasting time by unintentionally searching part of it again. With grid-step, you know that you are known/fixed distance from the previous step; and (more importantly) that the designers are also limited to that grid——and this is not the case when the grid-step option is tacked on long after the maps were laid out.

______________
The grid option for this new BT is probably node based instead of tile based. :(
Depending on how they have implemented it, that might mean that the nodes are not equidistant apart, and that the PC/party might move variable distances per step.
Image
We know that they mentioned nudging the locations to better fit their map—instead of designing the map on a (player traversed in-game) grid. :(
Thanks. Yeah, I did back the kickstarter years ago but honestly I'd forgotten about it until I got the release email, so I appreciate the recap.

The game's automap does lead to some of the same overall gameplay benefits. I found some Underbrae secrets by that kind of map inspecting.

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