Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

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Lanatir
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Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Lanatir » September 18th, 2018, 8:58 am

See title.

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thebruce
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by thebruce » September 18th, 2018, 9:07 am

Waiting, purportedly, in the future.
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Lanatir
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Lanatir » September 18th, 2018, 10:57 am

30 years from now?

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Nystrom » September 18th, 2018, 10:58 am

I thought you could turn the grid lines on?

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Lanatir » September 18th, 2018, 11:10 am

Nope. You cant. It is now a 'legacy feature' that will come some time in the future. When they will get it to work. IF they will get it to work.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Jalis » September 18th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Surprised / not surprised that this is still unavailable upon release. I don't recall any mention of it not being available on release in any backer update, but my memory could be failing me.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by phimseto » September 18th, 2018, 8:45 pm

Check Update 51, Brian's letter to backers about the game and its various goals. He talks about it there.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Orpheus the Bard » September 19th, 2018, 1:39 am

I saw the option, but didn't take it.

Of course, I can't find the redeem code option to get all my free gear.
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Crosmando » September 19th, 2018, 3:19 am

What a shame, this game feels so slow, grid based movement (hopefully with an option for instant without animation) would make it more tolerable.
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by ZiN » October 1st, 2018, 8:31 am

Just another one of InXile's lies:
Kickstarter campaign wrote:Like the originals, movement and dungeon design is grid-based, but the game allows you to toggle the grid off and move freely if you prefer.
Movement and dungeon design is clearly not grid-based and it was never intended to be grid based. It was clear from the start, that grid movement would be a tacked on gimmick. InXile has ran out of time though, so now this game designed with free movement in mind from the start, will not allow us to toggle the grid if we prefer. It will take a great amount of (wasted) effort to hack together a servicable fake-grid system for this game, hence:
patch notes wrote:Unfortunately, Legacy Mode will not be part of the third patch as we originally suggested, as this feature is a larger project...
Good luck with your "large project" InXile, you will need it. But I agree, get the game out of beta asap, before wasting time on useless features you have promised.

Remember those fake grid design pictures, they have forged back in Kickstarter update 38:

Image

I'm quite curious if they manage to hack anything together, without introducing a huge amount of bugs and issues. Also, I can alredy imagine the headache, that trying to solve some of their "puzzles" in grid-mode would cause.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by thebruce » October 1st, 2018, 10:39 am

I've been so busy lately I've been contemplating just holding off for grid-mode if/when it gets released, and save my first playthrough for that enabled, for a pure/fresh perspective on the game and the grid implementation. I feel like now with all the comments about replayability and amount of strategizing work without respec for the skill system, I won't want to play through again =/. As one of the founding vocal grid-lock advocaters :lol: I almost feel like it's a duty I should take now to see how well the grid experience is implemented. heh
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Hieronymous Alloy » October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am

Why is this something people are so upset about?

What are the gameplay benefits of grid based movement over full 3d? Seriously asking.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by ZiN » October 1st, 2018, 11:29 am

Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am
Why is this something people are so upset about?
For me it's mostly due to InXile (the developers I had the most faith in, bringing back the RPG and dungeon-crawling genres to their former glory) being caught multiple times blatantly lying to their backers, taking them for fools, ignoring them, breaking promises and not delivering what they were supposed to.

FYI, I agree that grid-movement is totally useless and unnecessary for Barrows Deep and would bring zero gameplay benefits. But for some strange reason InXile has deluded themselves into thinking, that implementing faux grid movement, will somehow make it "true old-school" or something.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by miasma » October 1st, 2018, 11:37 am

Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am
Why is this something people are so upset about?

What are the gameplay benefits of grid based movement over full 3d? Seriously asking.
I'm wondering the same thing. Grid-based movement was merely a solution in the 1980s because computers back then weren't powerful enough to render 3-D environments smoothly. It wasn't a "feature." When computers became powerful enough to render 3D environments smoothly, developers no longer needed to restrict gamers to a grid, and they could begin creating more immersive worlds. I guess having a grid system would be nice for a taste of nostalgia, but to me, complaining about the lack of a grid system is like complaining that the graphics aren't pixelated enough, or that they have too many colors compared to the old 16 bit games.

But, to be fair, since inXile did promise a the option to have a grid system, they should deliver it.

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Hieronymous Alloy » October 1st, 2018, 12:09 pm

miasma wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:37 am


But, to be fair, since inXile did promise a the option to have a grid system, they should deliver it.
Yeah I get that in the abstract. Like, if they promised a Fart Mode that replaced all the walking sounds with fart noises, ok, they should implement that at some point, just in case someone backed on the basis of it. But I'm having a hard time imagining who those people are.

The only "advantage" I can see is that it might make some of the hunt-and-peck type "find the switch" puzzles less annoying if it was just a matter of facing the right way in the right grid tile. Maybe?

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by ZiN » October 1st, 2018, 1:19 pm

Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 12:09 pm
Yeah I get that in the abstract. Like, if they promised a Fart Mode that replaced all the walking sounds with fart noises, ok, they should implement that at some point, just in case someone backed on the basis of it. But I'm having a hard time imagining who those people are.
Just to be clear, they haven't promised "grid mode" like your fart analogy suggests. They promised a grid-based dungeon-crawler, with optional "free movement mode".

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thebruce
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by thebruce » October 1st, 2018, 8:10 pm

miasma wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:37 am
Grid-based movement was merely a solution in the 1980s because computers back then weren't powerful enough to render 3-D environments smoothly.
*sigh* Not going to get into all this again. It's been discussed and debated ad nauseum in these forums over the past few years.

Point is, the game we have now is almost certainly not primed for a grid-based system like the classics, because it was built without such a grid-based mechanic in mind and includes gameplay concepts that would be very very difficult to translate. So it's hard to see the addition of grid-lock in BD providing any groundbreaking return to the originals' dungeon crawling navigational mechanic (a gameplay concept which fundamentally has absolutely nothing to do with limitation by old technology).

It only seems that there may be a very different play style being developed due to the extra delay for this feature promised since the early days of the Kickstarter. So yeah, it'll take a very big, and very well-made grid-lock game mechanic for it to actually, imo, be a 'Good Thing' for BD. Otherwise, it's going to feel tacky, wasteful, and highly frustrating. So here's hoping.
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Gizmo
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Gizmo » October 2nd, 2018, 12:23 am

Hieronymous Alloy wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 11:09 am
Why is this something people are so upset about?

What are the gameplay benefits of grid based movement over full 3d? Seriously asking.
There should be several, but I don't understand how anyone can benefit from it now, this late into development, when the feature can only be cosmetically tacked on, instead of being a core system that was planned from the outset. :x

TheBruce is right, this has been explained to death already.

So in brief: Had this been done from the planning stage, there could have been the potential to use it in puzzles, and the potential to use it for mapping; and the potential for them to use it in scripting. It could mean that levels that are (logically/implied as) above or below each other could actually be aligned, such that a hole in the floor could exist exactly just where expected in the ceiling below; and if it wasn't —that was a possible clue to something concealed, or at least unusual, and worth investigating.

Dungeoncrawlers would sometimes hide secret rooms in the [structured] layout of the walls. These rooms could be suspected because of the surrounding layout that you would eventually know. In a grid based game, it can grab one's attention if the outside wall of a room is 11 steps, but the inside wall is 9.

You are correct that grid based exploration (necessarily) simplifies searching for hidden triggers & switches. Ideally these should be obvious to see when looked for, but easy enough to miss if unsuspected. Grid-step allows a cursory search to imply a detailed [10'x10'] search by the party without slowing the pace down too much, or burning out the player's interest.

On a large map the player might have fifty possible search locations in grid-step, but that same area in free-roam would be a painful and tedious endeavor to search; and with strong likelihood of losing track of what was searched already—and wasting time by unintentionally searching part of it again. With grid-step, you know that you are known/fixed distance from the previous step; and (more importantly) that the designers are also limited to that grid——and this is not the case when the grid-step option is tacked on long after the maps were laid out.

______________
The grid option for this new BT is probably node based instead of tile based. :(
Depending on how they have implemented it, that might mean that the nodes are not equidistant apart, and that the PC/party might move variable distances per step.
Image
We know that they mentioned nudging the locations to better fit their map—instead of designing the map on a (player traversed in-game) grid. :(

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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Themadcow » October 2nd, 2018, 1:22 am

Yeah, it probably can't work now - or would need to be switched back and forth. As noted, this was pitched in the Kickstarter as grid based with optional free look - so quite a major departure from what was promised (probably the biggest). Let's face it, this was a design decision intended to attract a wider audience for whom RPG's are 'supposed' to look either like Skyrim or Pillars of Eternity.

As a massive fan of grid based crawlers, I'd even say to the devs now - don't bother. The time spent janking together a grid based solution would probably be better spent ironing out issues with the current design.
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Re: Where is the promised GRIDBASED Dungeon Crawler?

Post by Gizmo » October 2nd, 2018, 3:15 am

I am inclined to agree. They could spend a lot of time under the assumption that grid-step—itself (for its own sake) is what is wanted, and then feel like they wasted their time doing it—when grid-stepping for grid stepping sake, is meaningless when it is not supported by the rest of the game having been designed to be played using it; that is the draw and incentive for the feature. I'd not bother to scrutinize the game levels if the maps were inconsistent, and unstructured; with nothing to learn from them, (or to discover) that a cursory glance wouldn't reveal; no spinner traps, or confusing halls, no teleporters(?); does it even have pits used as more than just scenery?

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