The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

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Kionashi
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The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Kionashi » November 15th, 2018, 9:19 pm

There are a lot of things WL3 could improve from its predecessor, better balanced weapons, improved AI..etc but I think the 2 most important things to consider changing from WL2 to its sequel are

1.-Not allowing useless companions, the game highly encourages you to stick with the first party members you get and never switch, because the new companions might be in a decent level when first recruited, but if you don't add them to the party right away, they will always be underleveled giving you even less reasons to pick them up later unless you feel like grinding. I believe the companions should be able to level up with the main party, so you can choose the team that better fits in a certain situation instead of just sticking to what you already have because the rest of the team are a bunch of wimps.Also It would be cool if you have a reason to switch party members in the story, maybe having loyalty missions a la Mass Effect would be nice to take people out of their confort zone and make them try out other party members

2.-No "disabling" certain companions in the critical battles. Why would anybody ever bring Rose or Lexcanium to the team if they knew they would be useless in the final battle vs Mathias? being punished in the hardest battle just because you wanted to help Lexcanium get revenge or because you really liked Rose is terrible.

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fuzzyballs01
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by fuzzyballs01 » November 16th, 2018, 6:37 am

you know what's terrible? really liking Rose

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Lakstoties
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Lakstoties » November 16th, 2018, 8:33 am

I had BOTH Rose and Lexcanium on the last mission. To be frank, the whole "just because I got some artificial parts means I get completely taken over" story was just garbage writing... Complete buzzkill for what should have been a rallying moment. Then, to be down two party members on the hardest fight with the ridiculous, cheap difficulty ramping of the last mission... Let's be frank again, the Wasteland 2 combat system had some ridiculous stat ramping that made it stupidly difficult for no real reason.

So yeah... If it wasn't for my enjoyment of the game beforehand, that bitter, sour taste in my mouth would have kept me from even looking at Wasteland 3.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Gillsing » November 16th, 2018, 9:01 am

I like Rose. Just look at that magnificent brain. Tough I do edit my save files to change her hair from Fem_Gip_Hair_A to Fem_WLander_Hair_A. Because why even have a portrait and a character model if they're not going to resemble each other?

What I dislike the most about the NPC recruits is how once a team has selected skills based on what skills the chosen NPC recruits have, there's absolutely no reason to switch out an NPC recruit for someone with different skills, since they'd not have the skills the team needs, and instead have skills that the team is likely to already have. But maybe this is not something I dislike about the NPC recruits, but rather about the skill system itself. And I suppose it would be possible to play a team of Rangers who depend on switching out NPC recruits for most of the non-weapon skills, and indeed grind random encounters to level up all NPCs just to raise the skills they provide. Not something I've considered until just now, and only getting to bring three extra NPC recruits to Los Angeles would be a kick in the pants for such an approach.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Helz » November 16th, 2018, 11:12 am

I would like it if all of the companions were able to change their clothes. Somebody keeps crapping in Scotchmo's pants.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Drool » November 16th, 2018, 4:42 pm

Lakstoties wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 8:33 am
To be frank, the whole "just because I got some artificial parts means I get completely taken over" story was just garbage writing...
It could have been done well. They had almost laid the seeds of it previously. The problem wasn't so much the seizing of your characters as it was the whole BASE COCHISE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO nonsense.

And frankly, broke logic all over, especially the doctor in Titan. She's a sleeper agent for Cochise who hates Rangers. You'd think that with the brainchips and all, she'd be all about cybering up the Rangers, because then they could be taken over.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Lakstoties » November 17th, 2018, 6:57 pm

Drool wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 4:42 pm
It could have been done well. They had almost laid the seeds of it previously. The problem wasn't so much the seizing of your characters as it was the whole BASE COCHISE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO nonsense.
Completely agree. I would have been fine if Rose and Lexicanium occasionally had to fight against attempts to seize control and were down a few AP or out a turn. But, to instantly have them taken over and rendered into enemies in under a second. Right...

That whole fight was just poorly done overall. It was just a kludge and a half after a certain point NPCs under-equipped and fighting erratically towards ridiculously statted, mechanics cheesing enemies. It really highlighted the deficiencies in the combat system. (I ran the character editor on my squad and with the few tweaks... it was a night and day difference in the outcome.)

I also really hated the whole Leadership skill overall and how it was required to keep companions from going full doofus AI. I mean, you joined the squad, listen to some orders dammit, and maybe you'll avoid charging headlong into a spore plant, mine, or the firing line. Especially given the issues of the skill system and the having to split points from REQUIRED combat skills VS maybe used non-combat skills. If the companions join the squad I don't want to have to fight for control over them. Because if that's going to be the case again, I want to the option to just recruit more Ranger recruits I design myself and skip the companions.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Drool » November 17th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Lakstoties wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 6:57 pm
If the companions join the squad I don't want to have to fight for control over them. Because if that's going to be the case again, I want to the option to just recruit more Ranger recruits I design myself and skip the companions.
They were trying to duplicate the system in 1 where you could only tell them to attack, but you had no control over how they attack. It just... wasn't especially well done, especially combined with a pretty stupid AI.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by undecaf » November 18th, 2018, 6:52 am

Lakstoties wrote:
November 17th, 2018, 6:57 pm

I also really hated the whole Leadership skill overall and how it was required to keep companions from going full doofus AI. I mean, you joined the squad, listen to some orders dammit, and maybe you'll avoid charging headlong into a spore plant, mine, or the firing line.
I really liked companions going rogue and doing things on their own initiative. It might've fucked over some plans I had for certain fights, but it was all in good fun, re-adapt. It made the companions feel less like puppets and marionets and it made the game and the fights otherwise feel less predictable.

I do hope they keep that feature. At least as an option.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Zombra » November 18th, 2018, 8:38 am

I really dislike the idea of all NPCs magically levelling up to match the party. I hated it in Bioware games. It means that all the time they spend with me doing things is meaningless - it doesn't matter whether we've shared actual experiences together or not. Make them earn xp like everyone else.

-----

Once again, the problem with useless, underlevelled companions could be solved by not making companions mindless puppies you keep in a kennel until you want them to do tricks. Give them their own intelligible reasons to travel with the party, sleep in the same tent with them etc. and give them reasons they aren't content to do that every day for the rest of their lives. That means giving them reasons to leave, maybe not permanently, but at least for substantial amounts of time.

And if you can't give them clear reasons, limit their time with the party anyway. There's nothing wrong with a game that is "gamey" sometimes. After they earn 5000xp, or complete 2 missions, or kill 50 enemies, or stay with the party for 5 in-game days, they leave for a while, completely unavailable. Maybe you can find them back at base after you complete 4 more missions without them. (Or maybe not.)

Everybody loved Angela Deth, but you know what? Having her leave the party didn't make people like her any less and it didn't ruin the game. For many it made her more dear to us. And it also had the solid gameplay benefit of forcing us to adapt to new companions.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Grohal » November 18th, 2018, 7:48 pm

Zombra wrote:
November 18th, 2018, 8:38 am
...
Everybody loved Angela Deth, but you know what? Having her leave the party didn't make people like her any less and it didn't ruin the game. For many it made her more dear to us. And it also had the solid gameplay benefit of forcing us to adapt to new companions.
Well, I remember quite a bit of complaining on the "Angela leaves the party"-thing. Not sure if it was in this forum, though. So maybe it shouldn't be overdone - like in "with all NPCs. :mrgreen:
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Gillsing » November 19th, 2018, 3:27 pm

Zombra wrote:
November 18th, 2018, 8:38 am
Everybody loved Angela Deth, but you know what? Having her leave the party didn't make people like her any less and it didn't ruin the game. For many it made her more dear to us. And it also had the solid gameplay benefit of forcing us to adapt to new companions.
I didn't love Angela Deth. And having her leave my team without Outdoorsman, Brute Force and Hard Ass was not a gameplay benefit in my eyes. I went on through the Canyon of Titan, then put the game on hold for a while and then restarted with a new team. And from then on I started ditching Angela as soon as possible in favour of NPCs who'll stick around. Having NPC recruits sometimes be unavailable sounds awful. If they're recruits, then they'd better be on the team. If they want to be freelancing subcontractors, well that's something else. Then they don't need to take up space on the team, and can follow as needed, like Red Baychowski.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Drool » November 19th, 2018, 4:32 pm

I think the thing with Angela leaving is that it's pretty out of the blue. Yeah, she said it would be temporary, but by the time you get to her departure, you've likely forgotten that or assumed it wasn't serious. She's with you quite a while. Probably should have made her leave after the Radio Tower.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Gillsing » November 19th, 2018, 5:08 pm

I don't remember her saying anything about it being temporary. It's hard to know what's flavour dialogue and what's upcoming gameplay. Angela should have issued a warning in bold voice font: "General Vargas will probably call me back at some point and then I'll have to go." (Hint. HINT.)

Oh no, that would be hand holding! Well, if they're going to push me around with their hands, they might as well hold my hand to compensate. I'm fine with games where I can learn how to play, and play my way. But when they keep interfering with the gameplay it ruins things for me. And Wasteland 2 is full of situations where they interfere. Save often and reload. Or maybe restart.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Drool » November 19th, 2018, 5:50 pm

Well, she mentions "help you find your feet out there" and that she's interested in finding Ace's killer. In retrospect, you can see how that might mean temporary, but it doesn't seem particularly obvious. Especially after you more or less finish the Ace quest and she doesn't bail.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Zombra » November 19th, 2018, 8:47 pm

Gillsing wrote:
November 19th, 2018, 5:08 pm
I don't remember her saying anything about it being temporary. It's hard to know what's flavour dialogue and what's upcoming gameplay. Angela should have issued a warning in bold voice font: "General Vargas will probably call me back at some point and then I'll have to go." (Hint. HINT.)
Completely agree.
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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Kionashi » November 27th, 2018, 4:13 pm

What if.....you could to separate your teamates into squads, and you will have for story reasons to play with 2 different parties, that way you could have some story missions with your main party, and other missions with your secondary party, so you will always have all your companions gaining exp by doing quests (of course, since you wont be getting all the companions right away you will have a small party at the beginning but both parties will grow as you recruit new companions, or you will always have generic recruits to fill the empty spaces until you get your party full of companions) and when they both complete their quests they will go back to the HQ were you could swap members between both parties so you can rebalance as you need.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Highwayman667 » March 2nd, 2019, 10:17 am

Lakstoties wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 8:33 am
I had BOTH Rose and Lexcanium on the last mission. To be frank, the whole "just because I got some artificial parts means I get completely taken over" story was just garbage writing... Complete buzzkill for what should have been a rallying moment.
I don't think it's nice to describe someone's work as "garbage writing". Criticisms are valid but this is probably a bit too much.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Mole204 » March 3rd, 2019, 12:56 am

Highwayman667 wrote:
March 2nd, 2019, 10:17 am
Lakstoties wrote:
November 16th, 2018, 8:33 am
I had BOTH Rose and Lexcanium on the last mission. To be frank, the whole "just because I got some artificial parts means I get completely taken over" story was just garbage writing... Complete buzzkill for what should have been a rallying moment.
I don't think it's nice to describe someone's work as "garbage writing". Criticisms are valid but this is probably a bit too much.
Yeah, there were other scenes in WL2 MUCH more deserving of being called "garbage writing." As for Lex and Rose, the game was ending so I guess a few character deaths were supposed to help bring it to the finale'. But it was pretty unnecessary, and a bit of a jerk move. Wouldn't all those levels in Hacker Lex had taken at least give him a "saving throw" chance?
My experience with companions was pretty OK. I never got the animal companions. I chose to avoid Scotchmo. I wasn't allowed to keep the discobots as a companion. And Vax was just too unbelievably, disappointingly fragile to keep as a companion.

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Re: The things I hated the most with the companions in WL2

Post by Highwayman667 » March 3rd, 2019, 4:44 pm

Mole204 wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 12:56 am
Yeah, there were other scenes in WL2 MUCH more deserving of being called "garbage writing."
I don't think any of it deserves to be called garbage writing, and it's a tiny biiiiiit disrespectful to do so.

Regardless, some choice in regards to the fate of our companions would've probably been nice. I liked Rose enough that I would've loved being able to save her from being hacked.

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