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Player-Created Characters Are HUGELY Important.

Posted: September 22nd, 2018, 12:54 pm
by Zombra
Sorry for the all caps, but I feel the emphasis is warranted.

As we have seen with the recent release of Bard's Tale IV, vocal players are not responding well to having premade characters forced on them. Starting BT4 with a premade character, then assigning more premade characters to the party, and only allowing player-created characters later via an obscure and counterintuitive token system after firing the premade characters, has not been praised by anyone; and everywhere I look (not just here, and not just on the Codex) players are complaining about it.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS SAME MISTAKE with Wasteland 3. Full character creation should be the DEFAULT OPTION and the game should be designed ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE PLAYER WILL CREATE THEIR OWN CHARACTERS, starting with the first character BEFORE THE GAME EVEN BEGINS. Premade characters should certainly be available for those who don't want to bother but that should be a SECONDARY OPTION. Wasteland 2 proved that this works fine.

Thank you for your attention.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 22nd, 2018, 1:17 pm
by undecaf
Agreed.

And while we’re at it... Do also keep to-hit rolls and other RNG-based skillchecks.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 22nd, 2018, 1:49 pm
by Drool
Fully agree. What we've seen makes it sound like they're wanting it to open kind of like BT4 does, which would be a very bad idea. Additionally, Mercenary Tokens are a horrible idea.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 22nd, 2018, 2:53 pm
by Grohal
I second that - while I personally have lots of fun with Bards Tale IV I can understand everyone who insists on a self-made party. So make it optional.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 23rd, 2018, 2:03 am
by Woolfe
Agreed.... Stop trying to be clever.

We will either want your characters or we won't. Personally I don't give a damn how much work you put into the NPC, making them chat as you walk along, no thanks I don't want to see it. Don't care, will probably just be annoyed because that isn't how I imagined the character.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 23rd, 2018, 2:40 am
by Ranger Ghost
Creating a full team of Rangers was one of the best part of W2, i certainly don't want this to be changed.

On contrary i'd like to customize even more my party with Quirks or Traits, more stats in general, why not a morality system or a reputation with the factions, and stuffs like that.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 23rd, 2018, 8:40 am
by Gizmo
The option to make my own characters doesn't usually matter to me, not if the ones they provide are well done... but certain games are expected to support player created characters, and the Wasteland & Bard's Tale games are obviously two of those; where assigned PCs should only ever be considered as an optional starting party.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 27th, 2018, 1:51 pm
by sear
Wasteland 3's character creation is effectively the same as Wasteland 2's, discounting differences in the character system itself. You can create a fully custom character or go with premades. There are also companions you pick up along your journey, which are pre-defined characters who have their own story elements but are non-editable.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 27th, 2018, 2:03 pm
by Zombra
Wait wait wait. You can create ONE character?

That's not what we were told early on.

I appreciate the reply but unless I'm reading this wrong this is awful news.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 27th, 2018, 2:15 pm
by sear
Zombra wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:03 pm
Wait wait wait. You can create ONE character?

That's not what we were told early on.

I appreciate the reply but unless I'm reading this wrong this is awful news.
You're reading too much into my phrasing. :P I was just speaking in the singular. You can create up to 4 characters total. Nothing about the general game flow or party setup has changed since I made that post.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 27th, 2018, 2:21 pm
by Zombra
Oh thank god. And thank you sear. <3 :)

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 27th, 2018, 4:17 pm
by Woolfe
sear wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:15 pm
Zombra wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:03 pm
Wait wait wait. You can create ONE character?

That's not what we were told early on.

I appreciate the reply but unless I'm reading this wrong this is awful news.
You're reading too much into my phrasing. :P I was just speaking in the singular. You can create up to 4 characters total. Nothing about the general game flow or party setup has changed since I made that post.
Image

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 28th, 2018, 2:02 pm
by Drool
sear wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:15 pm
You can create up to 4 characters total.
Before the game truly starts, or are we still doing the "start with one and then, later, make your party"?

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 28th, 2018, 2:27 pm
by Zombra
Drool wrote:
September 28th, 2018, 2:02 pm
sear wrote:
September 27th, 2018, 2:15 pm
You can create up to 4 characters total.
Before the game truly starts, or are we still doing the "start with one and then, later, make your party"?
Based on everything I've read, particularly sear's "nothing has changed", it's still "start with one". Not my preference but I'm fine with it.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 28th, 2018, 4:42 pm
by Gizmo
Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale did that... and players would deliberately host private offline multiplayer games—intending that no one else join, so that they could make their entire party, and assign themselves control of each character... and play it the way the SSI gold box games allowed.

I wonder if someone will manage to create customized save states that achieve similar in the BT game?

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: September 30th, 2018, 9:49 pm
by Gennadios
I blame developer's insistence on cramming their games with terribad, un-optimised joked characters to this very day.

Has anyone played Baldur's Gate and looked at Minsc recently? I had fond memories of him, but looking at his terrible ass class and his tendency to rage at just about everything, it's painful even adding him to my party.

WL2 was guilty of that as well, with a few characters that would have been great if they didn't have 3 levels worth of skill points dumped on toaster repair or animal whisperer for [s]no good reason[/s] roleplay immersion.

Compromise: Start recruitable NPCs with weapon skills only and a few skill points and let the player decide if toaster repair is a theme they want to pursue.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: October 1st, 2018, 2:52 am
by Grohal
Gennadios wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:49 pm
...

Has anyone played Baldur's Gate and looked at Minsc recently? I had fond memories of him, but looking at his terrible ass class and his tendency to rage at just about everything, it's painful even adding him to my party.

...
I always gave Minsc a good bow and he was very efficient with it. As he was a ranger and not a barbarian that's the way to go in "optimised" D&D anyway.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: October 1st, 2018, 9:38 am
by Gizmo
All PCs should be flawed gems; never perfect, and each with some bit of annoyance to offset their valued abilities. Ideally just enough that some will not find them worth it, while others will.

I remember in Temple of Elemental Evil, the party can recruit a Giant; he stands over twice as tall as any other party member; stomps enemies good too. But he is evil, gruff, temperamental... and the town refuses you entrance with him in your party.

Another NPC in that game, is just a regular amicable guy, looking for something to do for a while. He performs well in the party—at least until he decides that the party is of no more direct benefit to him... and then he has no problem with trying to murder them all.

Yoshimo in Baldurs Gate 2, is a minion of Irenicus. He's a great PC/npc to have, but of course he will turn on you when he is commanded by his master; and he genuinely seems sorry about it.

Jan (also in BG2) is a fine PC, but he rants on and on about family and turnips...

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: October 1st, 2018, 3:01 pm
by Gennadios
Grohal wrote:
October 1st, 2018, 2:52 am
Gennadios wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:49 pm
...

Has anyone played Baldur's Gate and looked at Minsc recently? I had fond memories of him, but looking at his terrible ass class and his tendency to rage at just about everything, it's painful even adding him to my party.

...
I always gave Minsc a good bow and he was very efficient with it. As he was a ranger and not a barbarian that's the way to go in "optimised" D&D anyway.
That works but it's still not the best use of a character slot (then again, everything Minsc does isn't a great use of a character slot :? )
My playstyle relies on having melee characters to engage with the archers to get them to switch to melee weapons, and the rogues/clerics/mages in the ranged backline targeting spellcasters for interruption. Jaheira with a sling was a better ranged interruptor/caster than Minsc.

Re: PLAYER-CREATED CHARACTERS ARE HUGELY IMPORTANT.

Posted: October 4th, 2018, 1:04 pm
by Highwayman667
Well... it worked for Witcher 3 xD ...