Camera

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Drool
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Camera

Post by Drool » July 2nd, 2018, 4:47 pm

Dear inXile,

Being able to adjust the zoom and camera angle in Wasteland 2 was nice. But please, please, please, unbind those two control for Wasteland 3. I wanted to play WL2 from a more top-down view, but all too often it was far too zoomed out to be useful. Being able to adjust these two aspects independent of each other would be wonderful.

And while we're at it, being able to zoom in closer would be nice, especially if there's going to be more pixel hunting.

Love,
Drool
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Zombra
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Re: Camera

Post by Zombra » July 2nd, 2018, 5:19 pm

Yep. Anything less than full camera control is an insult to the user. UFO Afterlight's camera controls from over 10 years ago still haven't been improved upon.
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Gizmo
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Re: Camera

Post by Gizmo » July 2nd, 2018, 6:22 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 2nd, 2018, 5:19 pm
Anything less than full camera control is an insult to the user.
An affront perhaps, but insult implies that they think they are owed something, and not given it.

A curious thing about 'Dawn Of War', is that the camera is fixed angle; like Fallout and Temple of Elemental Evil. But the engine camera is used in the cutscenes (and the game is fully 3D). So the developers did allow... or rather did not prevent the user from having full camera control via options setting, but the developers considered it an unsupported feature; the game still played as intended, but by using the cinematic camera setting, it was possible to turn the camera on to some lower polygon filler scenery, or even flat horizon. It was meant to be played from the fixed angle.

_____________

The camera control in Bungie's Myth series was very good. An interesting aspect of it was that zooming inward or out was done on a slight curve that affected the angle; the closer in that you got, the more level with the ground the it became. I would like to have a similar system in WL3. Bungie allowed for keyboard controlled panning & orbiting, and zooming.
https://youtu.be/qnmup6udekk?t=1m47s

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Woolfe
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Re: Camera

Post by Woolfe » July 2nd, 2018, 11:49 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 2nd, 2018, 6:22 pm
DIGRESSION!!!!!

But more importantly I agree with the OP... Camera manipulation should be simple to do but complex in possibilities.

I generally find an angle, and then never change it... But I do tend to "find" the angle first.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

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Drool
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Re: Camera

Post by Drool » July 3rd, 2018, 3:17 pm

Serendipitously, Kenshi has a great camera. It's really simple: hold the middle mouse button to rotate the camera around and to change the height. Roll the wheel to zoom in and out. Done and done.
Gizmo wrote:
July 2nd, 2018, 6:22 pm
The camera control in Bungie's Myth series was very good. An interesting aspect of it was that zooming inward or out was done on a slight curve that affected the angle; the closer in that you got, the more level with the ground the it became.
Yeah, that's the exact opposite of what I want. That's what WL2 did. I'm a big boy; I can adjust the zoom, rotation, and angle all by myself.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Gizmo
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Re: Camera

Post by Gizmo » July 3rd, 2018, 4:29 pm

Drool wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 3:17 pm
Yeah, that's the exact opposite of what I want. That's what WL2 did. I'm a big boy; I can adjust the zoom, rotation, and angle all by myself.
Did you watch the tutorial link from the post? The effect is subtle; but in the case of Myth, the engine uses a 3D landscape with 2D unit sprites. The effect is actually required, because the sprites cannot change their angle.
Woolfe wrote:
July 2nd, 2018, 11:49 pm
Gizmo wrote:
July 2nd, 2018, 6:22 pm
DIGRESSION!!!!!
That's a misquote; one that presents an erroneous contrary point, not found or intended in the original post.

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Drool
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Re: Camera

Post by Drool » July 3rd, 2018, 4:49 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 4:29 pm
Did you watch the tutorial link from the post? The effect is subtle; but in the case of Myth, the engine uses a 3D landscape with 2D unit sprites. The effect is actually required, because the sprites cannot change their angle.
Right, but Wasteland 3 doesn't have that limitation, thus locking the camera tilt to the zoom is unnecessary and is the exact opposite of what I would like for this game.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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sear
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Re: Camera

Post by sear » July 3rd, 2018, 8:11 pm

The game is using the same basic camera system as Wasteland 2, but with tweaked values for both aesthetics and better gameplay. Currently we're planning on letting you zoom the camera closer than in Wasteland 2, for example, so you can check out your party members' outfits much more easily. We also use a lower field of view which reduces that fish-eye effect you can sometimes get when you zoom the camera out. The camera spline is less extreme and has a more consistent feel overall.

Another huge component of this is actually on the level design side. On Wasteland 3, we were able to look at Wasteland 2 to see what worked best and then codify all of those practices. Everything is built to a default zoom level and angle, and laid out assuming you can (mostly) play without ever needing to rotate or zoom the camera. We've also standardized the size of rooms and hallways much more than on Wasteland 2, and limited how tall art props, buildings, etc. can be within the playable space. This has helped reduce the need for micro-management pretty significantly.

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Zombra
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Re: Camera

Post by Zombra » July 3rd, 2018, 9:02 pm

Drool wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 3:17 pm
Serendipitously, Kenshi has a great camera.
Why didn't I think to mention that? Yes, Kenshi has brilliant camera control. I guess I didn't think of it because it's so smooth and functional it never occurred to me to bring it up. There's very little room for discussion about something that's already perfect.
sear wrote:
July 3rd, 2018, 8:11 pm
The game is using the same basic camera system as Wasteland 2, but with tweaked values for both aesthetics and better gameplay.
I trust you guys, but I'm disappointed. W2's camera controls feel like shackles.

If you have some secret developer console way to unlock the camera, like the way your artists must have more freedom to be able to look at stuff to work on it, you can PM it to me and I promise I'll never tell. (Note that this doesn't mean I won't try to guilt you into announcing it for everyone.)
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