W3 Replayability

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

User avatar
Mole204
Scholar
Posts: 219
Joined: May 6th, 2013, 3:17 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Mole204 » June 12th, 2018, 11:48 pm

I'm against excessive difficulty locking content. Stuff like: Yes, you get to see the bonus ending if you beat the game on hardest mode, but excluding levels and areas and speech just doesn't make good sense.

Wl2_player, what do you think of the idea of "endless goalless playing"? In wl1, after the main mission of the game was finished you could keep playing. Just walk around, fighting the random encounters, gaining more and more xp for as long as the players keep playing. Until they wander away to other pursuits, or willingly load a fresh copy and they start over again.
I thought the lack of that badly hurt the replay-ability of wl2. Getting your team's stats saved was a good idea, but if you wanted to play wl2 you still had to start over again from square one. How hard would it have been to just drop the team back in the Arizona map after the end credits roll?
How that sort of thing is handled would also effect wl3's replay-ability for the same reasons.

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3626
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Gizmo » June 12th, 2018, 11:56 pm

Yeah... I generally won't play, or stop playing, a game once I find out that it doesn't have an end. All games should come to an ending; and it's a shame to have a great game that lets itself be played until the player's interest withers into disgust, and they quit for being sick of it. Better to force an ending while they still wish for more. This way their most recent memories of it allow them to recall it being fun, rather it being boring (at that point).

User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1013
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Grohal » June 13th, 2018, 12:28 am

Well, about playing after defeating the mainstoryline:
If it's only about random encounters and nothing else: no.
If I can still finish sidequests or other stuff not tied to the mainquest (not every problem in the world should tied to the mainquest anyway): yeah, sure.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

W2_player
Initiate
Posts: 7
Joined: June 6th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by W2_player » June 13th, 2018, 4:34 am

That's nice, so am I. Zombra mentioned content gated by achievements.
After all the real achievement is your knowledge of the optimal gameplay.
Whether it would be actually locked by perks, level checks, required high stat checks, the cost of these locks is only the real time spent on playing.
Giving player more hassle with must-do farming kill-em-all or whatever is suitable for beginners and mid-time players.
The trick of how do you get it, should you play once more, but why ? To get those needed high stats by just passing the same story ? Well maybe, a two, three times you take the same route and then, at last, your uber squad access some secrets that are not worth the time.
Secrets, bonuses, upgrades must be worth its time, its effort.
In W2DC playthrough all the lockpickies and safe bombing, except doors are totally irrelevant, do them or not, does not matter.
The real fun starts when you start anew, but now oh yeah you know everything. That is why you willingly play again, seek quest solutions and carry shit to citadel. Thats funny.
Aside of how this topic got straight with "lock it by superjerk level and play it 100 times". But no.
All secrets and extra gamerplay should be worth its time and be done in a single play. The point is that you as the player know not what to do.

User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1013
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Grohal » June 13th, 2018, 4:39 am

W2_player wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 4:34 am

All secrets and extra gamerplay should be worth its time and be done in a single play.
That is a bit hard if there are choices and consequences like in "you can only save Highpool or AG Center". And I really hope there is more of that in WL 3.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

W2_player
Initiate
Posts: 7
Joined: June 6th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by W2_player » June 13th, 2018, 4:53 am

Lets imagine that certain events and quests will automaticaly raise or lower the difficulty setting, thus giving option to include all possible storyline branches.
Save HP or AG is not hard to take as drama. Lots of things in the W2 are called drama elements. In the c# code.
AG Center map is just done so and not developed further. Actually, if not blocked by, AG center can be cleaned up and restored. So is Highpool.
This way the Damonta quest become obsolete and LA should be available. Tinker may not be killed and be cought and analyzed for its knowledge. Team Echo may fly safely to LA and things go better. Matthias by then may be arrested not killed and allow the loading of the Cochise AI and then changing its function. Dugan may arise to revenge and bring another robot army.

User avatar
sear
Developer
Posts: 2671
Joined: March 21st, 2012, 8:30 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by sear » June 13th, 2018, 6:41 pm

We absolutely want to allow for a wide variety of story outcomes and reactivity, character builds, and mutually exclusive paths. That's not just an RPG thing, that's one of the core appeals of Wasteland and we're doing everything we can to ensure that those are all accounted for.

We're also building and balancing Wasteland 3 in a more open-ended way. While there's a clear progression and main story path, you won't be gated out from most of the game's locations unless there's a specific story reason to do so. We want you to be able to go in over your head from time to time. Even in some cases where we do gate progress through the game, most of those are soft gates you will be able to bypass or overcome if you know how. It's a bit too early to talk about exactly how that balance will work out, or how open things will be, but I don't want players to feel like they have to grind. On the flip side, if you want to go do a ton of side content early on and then overpower the first part of the main story, I think that should be an option too.

When it comes to difficulty settings, new game plus, etc., I don't want to speak too much because the amount of stuff we are able to do there is going to be partially dependent on the team's schedule and how much time there is left to add those towards the end of production. However, I am a big fan of optional difficulty modes and rule tweaks and would like to build those in if possible.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9576
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Drool » June 13th, 2018, 11:21 pm

sear wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 6:41 pm
We're also building and balancing Wasteland 3 in a more open-ended way. While there's a clear progression and main story path, you won't be gated out from most of the game's locations unless there's a specific story reason to do so.
I hope those "specific story reasons" are few and far between. WL2 was exceptionally linear with strange radiation walls gating large portions of the game until you cleared out the previous area. I hope you take a page from WL1 where only two locations were plot-locked. A party of Privates could waltz right in to the Guardian's Citadel and get obliterated. In fact, I wager a lot of people did that.
When it comes to difficulty settings, new game plus, etc., I don't want to speak too much because the amount of stuff we are able to do there is going to be partially dependent on the team's schedule and how much time there is left to add those towards the end of production.
Please have the team give more thought to NG+. In WL2, even if you went for non-grinding run, you were probably only about 10 levels from the cap. Personally, I'd prefer it if you all but removed the cap in the first place. Of course, that would also require ditching CLASSIC, but that's a feature, not a bug.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6190
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Zombra » June 13th, 2018, 11:59 pm

You wouldn't have to ditch CLASSIC to remove the level cap in W2. Just require every new level past 50 to require 5x the xp of the previous level. Boom, done, and now players don't feel that continuing to fight random encounters etc. is completely worthless.
Image

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5809
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Woolfe » June 14th, 2018, 3:17 am

Drool wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:21 pm
sear wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 6:41 pm
We're also building and balancing Wasteland 3 in a more open-ended way. While there's a clear progression and main story path, you won't be gated out from most of the game's locations unless there's a specific story reason to do so.
I hope those "specific story reasons" are few and far between. WL2 was exceptionally linear with strange radiation walls gating large portions of the game until you cleared out the previous area. I hope you take a page from WL1 where only two locations were plot-locked. A party of Privates could waltz right in to the Guardian's Citadel and get obliterated. In fact, I wager a lot of people did that.
I know I did :lol:
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Grohal
Master
Posts: 1013
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Grohal » June 14th, 2018, 3:58 am

Woolfe wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 3:17 am
Drool wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:21 pm
sear wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 6:41 pm
We're also building and balancing Wasteland 3 in a more open-ended way. While there's a clear progression and main story path, you won't be gated out from most of the game's locations unless there's a specific story reason to do so.
I hope those "specific story reasons" are few and far between. WL2 was exceptionally linear with strange radiation walls gating large portions of the game until you cleared out the previous area. I hope you take a page from WL1 where only two locations were plot-locked. A party of Privates could waltz right in to the Guardian's Citadel and get obliterated. In fact, I wager a lot of people did that.
I know I did :lol:
Yeah, I remember that. "Oh only nuns and monks. What is the worst that could happen?" :mrgreen:
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9576
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Drool » June 14th, 2018, 2:14 pm

Zombra wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:59 pm
You wouldn't have to ditch CLASSIC to remove the level cap in W2. Just require every new level past 50 to require 5x the xp of the previous level. Boom, done, and now players don't feel that continuing to fight random encounters etc. is completely worthless.
Well, yeah, but with Classic, you'd quickly hit a point where everyone is maxed in everything and the levels would be mostly meaningless.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

User avatar
sear
Developer
Posts: 2671
Joined: March 21st, 2012, 8:30 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by sear » June 14th, 2018, 3:16 pm

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions about the balancing of CLASSIC from Wasteland 2 when it comes to replayability. The basic system is the same but the things specific attributes and skills do, the number of skills, the types of unlocks and bonuses you get, the rate of progression, etc. is all being tweaked for Wasteland 3.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6190
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Zombra » June 14th, 2018, 9:15 pm

Sorry to be redundant, but since you replied sear I want to state again to be very clear:

Hitting the level cap in W2 really devalued my interest in engaging with the game's systems.

It doesn't even matter if xp requirements are ridiculous past a certain point; getting xp makes me feel my characters are still alive and growing. I see no reason to put up a brick wall late in the game.
Image

Godfather101
Explorer
Posts: 290
Joined: April 11th, 2012, 1:14 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Godfather101 » June 14th, 2018, 10:47 pm

Yeah, i don't like level caps either.
Killed much fun for me in Pillars 1 and 2.

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5809
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Woolfe » June 15th, 2018, 3:11 am

Level caps are terrible... Generally when I hit a cap... I very quickly stop playing.

I never actually finished Fallout 3 because of the level caps... and I tried it twice... of course it also had a very lacklustre story but still...

I agree with Zombie, even if the XP gain is mostly symbolic it is still important. Though I would prefer it to be at least somewhat useful, (minor improvement in stats every 10 levels over or something)
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3626
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Gizmo » June 15th, 2018, 4:12 am

Level caps are to protect the game from godlike characters that the developers won't (have to) support encounters for; and best used in multi-character party based games, so that at least some of the characters (typically) will still be advancing. It does sort of become pointless once you cannot advance anyone anymore; the game should have ended by then, before all of the PCs have hit the level cap.

Also... caps can exist because higher level characters in that race/class don't exist at all in the game world. D&D certainly does this. The SSI games capped and restricted certain non-humans (who had other benefits); dwarves could be fighters up to level 9, but unlimited levels as thieves, and not magicians at all. Humans could be any level of any class—that is their primary special ability.

Take Hobbits for instance. It makes sense that that even the most literate and skilled Hobbits are not going to be better magicians than Gandalf, or Sauruman; culturally they just don't do that. None of the Orcs would ever do that either; though they might have strong cleric/shamans. In some cases the mismatch is possible, but not ideal, and so the a-typical among them can learn some of the art, but will never advance past a certain attainment; and beyond that the finer points are lost on them. Hobbits could be master theives, and cooks, but they wouldn't become master shipwrights, or equestrians... even if they learned (some of) how to do both; and very few of them can physically ride a horse.

User avatar
sear
Developer
Posts: 2671
Joined: March 21st, 2012, 8:30 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by sear » June 15th, 2018, 5:51 am

Gizmo wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 4:12 am
Level caps are to protect the game from godlike characters that the developers won't (have to) support encounters for; and best used in multi-character party based games, so that at least some of the characters (typically) will still be advancing. It does sort of become pointless once you cannot advance anyone anymore; the game should have ended by then, before all of the PCs have hit the level cap.
This is how I see it. In an ideal situation you probably wouldn't even be able to reach the level cap under normal gameplay conditions. For example, Fallout 1 has a level cap of 21 and I don't think I ever got much past 17 or 18, even on longer playthroughs where I did a lot of random encounters.

The same was true of Wasteland 2 for me. I don't think I ever got past 45 or so, even in completionist playthroughs. Can you guys let me know if you are talking about initial runs through the game, or are you hitting the cap on replays with an exported squad?

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5809
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Woolfe » June 15th, 2018, 6:57 am

sear wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 5:51 am
Gizmo wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 4:12 am
Level caps are to protect the game from godlike characters that the developers won't (have to) support encounters for; and best used in multi-character party based games, so that at least some of the characters (typically) will still be advancing. It does sort of become pointless once you cannot advance anyone anymore; the game should have ended by then, before all of the PCs have hit the level cap.
This is how I see it. In an ideal situation you probably wouldn't even be able to reach the level cap under normal gameplay conditions. For example, Fallout 1 has a level cap of 21 and I don't think I ever got much past 17 or 18, even on longer playthroughs where I did a lot of random encounters.

The same was true of Wasteland 2 for me. I don't think I ever got past 45 or so, even in completionist playthroughs. Can you guys let me know if you are talking about initial runs through the game, or are you hitting the cap on replays with an exported squad?
Pretty sure most of us understand WHY level caps exist.... but that doesn't mean we like them.

I also think that is a pretty poor excuse as well.

If players are able to blow so far past the level range needed to support various encounters, then you haven't balanced your available experience well.

Players shouldn't manage that unless they are seriously grinding. And those that do seriously grind.. Shrug... you won't ever stop them from exploiting the grind...

(Oh and Gizmo, you are going off track again. The examples you are using are irrelevant to this game.)
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3626
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: W3 Replayability

Post by Gizmo » June 15th, 2018, 7:00 am

Woolfe wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 6:57 am
(Oh and Gizmo, you are going off track again. The examples you are using are irrelevant to this game.)
When do I ever? (...examples don't have to be relevant to the game to impart a relevant meaning. ;) )

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests