Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Grohal » July 5th, 2019, 4:26 am

If we must have something in WL3 from the §-book of the original WL, I would rather prefer the sexy blond chick with the UZI in the bathtube. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » July 7th, 2019, 10:50 pm

Serpoids were hinted at. Just like how a criminal underworld was hinted at with the priest's ruby ring, and the casino. It's in the paragraph book, the paragraph book is part of wasteland, therefore with 3 being the last game it's time to do it and have a serpoid encounter. It just needs to be done in a way that fits with the style of WL. I see nothing wrong with having a black-and-white-sci-fi villain- as long as it's not the main villain. That's probably the Patriarch.
Drool wrote:"You don't need aliens to explain ICBMs."
True, but they can't keep blaming everything on the Cochise computer. Put a platform in space, you get space aliens.
Drool wrote:You can object to the ending, but there's nothing wrong with a game ending when it ends.
True, it's just a letdown to have all that stuff you did go up in a mushroom cloud. A bit too sudden. "Arn't you supposed to save those people?" "Oh, well, get a broom."
They have games where you're supposed to kill everyone. This isn't one of them. And not getting to run free, without any ranger missions to go on was a bit lame. Hopefully the new situation will all be explored in WL3. Or a 2.5 minigame of some sort. Or something. I know the setup for 3 is totally different location from start to end (or so I assume from the press that's been out), and has a lot of promise. Perhaps you'll be rounding up things to ship back to Arizona.
Drool wrote: "Adding aliens that were invading Mars isn't adding aliens" is some serious galaxy brain stuff.
Hey, if you want the Serps to invade Mars, go ahead. Just let the Rangers shoot up a few who decide to take Earth too. Time to get some _very_ imported alligator boots.
Drool wrote: They weren't Mars monsters.
They were monsters, and they were meant for Mars. You can do the math.

Drool, Wolfe, get over your serpoid hate. Stop flipping out over a minor matter. They're just meant to be another batch of tough baddies there to be fed to the Proton Ax. Variety. You may as well be angry about there being cowboys in wl2. Relax.
Grohal wrote: If we must have something in WL3 from the §-book of the original WL, I would rather prefer the sexy blond chick with the UZI in the bathtube.
(wise nod) Yes, this man speaks truth. I'd like her to be "Vaporware pixelated" (or whatever they call it now) like wl1's encounter portraits, but the important thing is that it's not forgotten that she be put in the game! :)

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 7th, 2019, 11:57 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 10:50 pm
Serpoids were hinted at.
No, they were not. The Serpoids and the whole storyline featuring them were a set of fake paragraphs to trick people whose eyes... strayed... from the paragraphs they were supposed to read. Many of the paragraphs have two (or more?) versions: One which is real and has the correct password, and other(s) that are fake, perhaps with some fake details, and definitely with fake passwords. Maybe you should tell Faran Brygo to develop Fakeland 3 as a parallel game to Wasteland 3, where all the fake paragraphs in Wasteland 1 were for real?
Mole204 wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 10:50 pm
Drool wrote: They weren't Mars monsters.
They were monsters, and they were meant for Mars. You can do the math.
As I remember it, the area in which they lived looked 'Martian', but that was just a sign of Finster being willing to change Earth into an 'alien' landscape where his mutant creations would thrive. Or perhaps the anticipation was that nuclear war could/would turn Earth into such a landscape, so Finster and his team created creatures that would thrive in such a future? Any paragraphs actually referring to Mars must have been fake paragraphs.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by kipper » July 8th, 2019, 10:52 am

Grohal wrote:
July 5th, 2019, 4:26 am
If we must have something in WL3 from the §-book of the original WL, I would rather prefer the sexy blond chick with the UZI in the bathtube. :mrgreen:
This just occurred to me, but there is a bathing girl who pulls a gun on the protagonist in the game "Shadow Warrior" (1997)! I wonder if it was influenced by Wasteland, more likely it was simply a coincidence.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 8th, 2019, 2:52 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 10:50 pm
Serpoids were hinted at. Just like how a criminal underworld was hinted at with the priest's ruby ring, and the casino.
The ring was, you know, actually in the game. Serpioids were not. This is a pretty clear distinction.
It's in the paragraph book, the paragraph book is part of wasteland
No, it is not. They explicitly state that some paragraphs are fake, therefore they are not part of the game.
True, but they can't keep blaming everything on the Cochise computer. Put a platform in space, you get space aliens.
Citadel was a satellite. When it sent its distress signal, the nations launched their missiles. No aliens required. Now, Cochise may indeed have been responsible for the problems with Citadel, but those events have already happened. Retroactively injecting aliens is hardly an improvement.
Hey, if you want the Serps to invade Mars, go ahead.
Again, you miss the point. That's not what I want. That's what was in the fake paragraphs. If you're going to make the fake paragraphs canon, at least be consistent instead of making your half-remembered fake paragraphs what you're going on.
They were monsters, and they were meant for Mars. You can do the math.
No, they weren't. Read the actual paragraphs and the actual information given in game. Finister was part of Cochise's grand plan. The robots would scour the earth of all life and Finster's creations would be the new life on earth. Mars had nothing to do with it.
They're just meant to be another batch of tough baddies there to be fed to the Proton Ax.
They were meant to be a joke.

If you were just saying, "Hey, it's too bad Serioids were just a joke, wouldn't it be cool if they were actually in the game?" we'd be having a different conversation. The problem, and the reason we're so strident, is because you continue to insist that they were in Wasteland. You continue to insist on not just elevating the fake paragraphs to real, but elevating things you've completely made up whole cloth as canon. Even if the fake paragraphs were real, the Serpioids weren't Martians; Finster wasn't creating a new Mars. You're taking non-canon elements, twice removed, and saying that they must be in the game because they were always in the game.

You absolute inability (or unwillingness) to see the difference is monstrously annoying and is why we're "flipping out".
Variety. You may as well be angry about there being cowboys in wl2. Relax.
What?


Gillsing wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 11:57 pm
As I remember it, the area in which they lived looked 'Martian', but that was just a sign of Finster being willing to change Earth into an 'alien' landscape where his mutant creations would thrive.
Close:
Paragraph 14 wrote:The Director, a handsome, slender man, waves you to chairs that face his desk. Beyond his desk you see a window into an alien landscape. Through the window you see a red world with strangely-shaped plants. You see animals slinking through the shadows and crawling across massive rock outcroppings. You shudder. It just doesn't feel right.

The Director, Irwin John Finster, notices your stare and smiles like a snake oil salesman. "I see you've noticed my pet project. This is how the world will be when all men are gone. It will once again return to the pristine paradise it was before man rose up and destroyed it.-

He turns away from the window and smiles at you. "By the very fact that you are here, I know you have recovered certain items of a technical nature. Whatever prompted you to violate this base's security, I do not know, but I am willing to forgive it." He sits, leans back and steeples his fingers. "Because of the delicate nature of our work here - all very hush-hush, you know - I must ask you to leave."

Suddenly he leans forward and scowls. "If you do not want to go, well, we are not without means to deal with even the likes of dreaded Desert Rangers."
Alien as in "this shouldn't look like this".

He's not trying to make it into Mars; he's trying to return it to pre-human Earth. And, well, red itself isn't especially alien to Arizona. Sedona is full of red rocks and sand. The alieness comes from the flora and fauna, not the color.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » July 9th, 2019, 8:17 pm

Whoa, the only thing I'd tell Bryan Fargo to do would be to drop all foul language, and use doing so to sharpen the story and dialogue.
You want to use a few baby-talk cuss words to try for a pg-13 rating? Go without them, and try to make it pg-13 instead. Let's see what you come up with then.


I should check that, but Finster's monsters make for pretty good martian animals.

"If you were just saying, "Hey, it's too bad Serpioids were just a joke, wouldn't it be cool if they were actually in the game?" we'd be having a different conversation."
Yeah, that's what this started out as, but then you, Drool, start arguing in what I can only assume is a recreation of a Monty Python skit. Yes, they were in Wasteland. The paragraph book is part of Wasteland. I don't know if it's part of the license or whatever, but it's time to put the character or idea or whatever into the main game. Bring out your dead background actors.

"You continue to insist on not just elevating the fake paragraphs to real, but elevating things you've completely made up whole cloth as canon."
Is this about the boots? I may have made a few suggestions, I may have talked around a point instead of repeating myself cut/paste, and I may have connected a dot or two with the space shuttle in wl3 with the shuttle in wl1, but so what? You could say the same thing about anything someone says or otherwise extrapolates about the Nancies and Morningstar.

You're quite right about "Alien as in "this shouldn't look like this"." but there's too many connections to Mars and the fake entries to entirely drop the Mars connection.
If you're going to rebuild civilization on a heap of a thousand dead Random Encounter Goons, gas up that space shuttle and go all the way.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 11th, 2019, 9:21 am

I'd say ramp up the foul language
it's the post-apocalypse, who's gonna censor people?

and dude, just admit you were wrong and move on instead of just repeating the same points over and over as if it makes you right because the other guy just gave up
drop the whole Mars thing already

you're like one of those people who don't get 40K lore, and keeps refusing to admit they're wrong after 15 people correct you, I hate those people

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 11th, 2019, 6:46 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 8:17 pm
I should check that, but Finster's monsters make for pretty good martian animals.
Wolves make good Martian animals?
Yes, they were in Wasteland. The paragraph book is part of Wasteland.
Yeah, no.
I don't know if it's part of the license or whatever
It's part of the IP, yes. Just like the manual and the quick-start guide. But that doesn't make it part of the game.
but it's time to put the character or idea or whatever into the main game.
Strongly disagree.
Is this about the boots?
Huh?
You're quite right about "Alien as in "this shouldn't look like this"." but there's too many connections to Mars and the fake entries to entirely drop the Mars connection.
The only connection to Mars is the redness. And, again, Arizona is full of red landscapes. The fake entries are irrelevant.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Tim McBride » July 11th, 2019, 9:19 pm

Keep talking about Aliens and Mr.Manners is going to triangulate your signal and send a couresty patrol for spreading false rumors...

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » July 12th, 2019, 12:48 am

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 9:21 am
I'd say ramp up the foul language. it's the post-apocalypse, who's gonna censor people?
mole204: NO, that's exactly the same lazy no-effort thing that's been done a thousand times before! You CAN have the post apocalypse and not waste time with the foul language. And it hurts being able to spread soundbites liberally. If you want a biker character to swear like a biker, give him some threats involving motor oil. There's lots of things that are disturbing that does not involve needless swearing. It's just lazy. To the point of being insulting. Us game buyers deserve better.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:and dude, just admit you were wrong and move on instead of just repeating the same points over and over as if it makes you right because the other guy just gave up
drop the whole Mars thing already
Mole204: We just disagree on a few points. And I'm not saying go to Mars, just that Finster's monsters fit there, and that it's in the paragraph book's off-main entries. And that they should go ahead and put some Serpoids in wl3, just don't make the game revolve around them. I think it looks like the Patriarch is going to take up much of the last act. The last time we got to raid a super-vault was twice in wl1, and none in wl2. If we manage to find the P's vault, where are we going to find the tools to cut our way inside?
fuzzyballs01 wrote:you're like one of those people who don't get 40K lore, and keeps refusing to admit they're wrong after 15 people correct you, I hate those people
mole204: hey, if they can't keep their editions straight that's not my fault. And I prefer the books over the tabletop game. (Yes, that includes Gaunt's Ghosts.)
Last edited by Mole204 on July 14th, 2019, 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 12th, 2019, 3:47 pm

I have no idea who is saying what here. Please take 5 minutes to learn how to properly use quote tags. Or quotation marks. Or something other than broken, improper quote tags that make it look like people are saying things that you said.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 15th, 2019, 6:47 pm

Drool wrote:
July 8th, 2019, 2:52 pm
Mole204 wrote:
July 7th, 2019, 10:50 pm
They're just meant to be another batch of tough baddies there to be fed to the Proton Ax.
They were meant to be a joke.

If you were just saying, "Hey, it's too bad Serioids were just a joke, wouldn't it be cool if they were actually in the game?" we'd be having a different conversation. The problem, and the reason we're so strident, is because you continue to insist that they were in Wasteland. You continue to insist on not just elevating the fake paragraphs to real, but elevating things you've completely made up whole cloth as canon. Even if the fake paragraphs were real, the Serpioids weren't Martians; Finster wasn't creating a new Mars. You're taking non-canon elements, twice removed, and saying that they must be in the game because they were always in the game.

You absolute inability (or unwillingness) to see the difference is monstrously annoying and is why we're "flipping out".
I agree with everything Drool said, and I highlight this part, because it captures exactly why some of us get so annoyed at you.

We are annoyed because you are incorrect, we are "flipping out" because despite being corrected numerous times, you continue to spin the same incorrect bits as if they are correct.

You are being nonsensical.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 15th, 2019, 6:50 pm

Also I am all for Foul language. Every civilisation ever has had foul language. To remove it is just silly. This isn't a game for kids, it is a game for adults.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 15th, 2019, 7:17 pm

Woolfe wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Also I am all for Foul language. Every civilisation ever has had foul language. To remove it is just silly. This isn't a game for kids, it is a game for adults.
I don't recall any foul language in the first game. I think people were too focused on life or death issues to remember to swear and cuss and call each other names. But I suppose you're right. It was just silly. Shove it under a rock or something, because Fallout was more grimdark, and Wasteland 2 is more grimdark than Fallout. Is it a competition in manly, grown-up grimdark? Hell fuck yeah, jizz rockets! :shock:

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 16th, 2019, 2:03 pm

Gillsing wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 7:17 pm
I don't recall any foul language in the first game. I think people were too focused on life or death issues to remember to swear and cuss and call each other names.
I can't think of any off the top of my head. There was far less dialog, though. And fewer instances where it would make sense like the attacking vegetables in the WL2 Ag Center or Danforth in the Prison.
Shove it under a rock or something, because Fallout was more grimdark, and Wasteland 2 is more grimdark than Fallout. Is it a competition in manly, grown-up grimdark? Hell fuck yeah, jizz rockets!
Honestly, it feels more inspired by Fallout 2 than the original. Fallout 2 leaned in hard on the stupid pop culture references and the swearing (Myron, anyone?).
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 16th, 2019, 7:25 pm

Gillsing wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 7:17 pm
Woolfe wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 6:50 pm
Also I am all for Foul language. Every civilisation ever has had foul language. To remove it is just silly. This isn't a game for kids, it is a game for adults.
I don't recall any foul language in the first game. I think people were too focused on life or death issues to remember to swear and cuss and call each other names. But I suppose you're right. It was just silly. Shove it under a rock or something, because Fallout was more grimdark, and Wasteland 2 is more grimdark than Fallout. Is it a competition in manly, grown-up grimdark? Hell fuck yeah, jizz rockets! :shock:
Not sure of your point.

I just think it is silly not to have foul language. If you are in a situation where it would be appropriate, then have it. If you are in a situation where it is not, then don't have it.

For example you are speaking to the leader of some group of folk who pride themselves on civility and manners. Swearing not really appropriate, and if you do use foul language, then there should be ramifications.

Same situation but you are speaking to the leader of a ramshackle bunch of no hopers who hides his capabilities through making others feel superior to him. Every second word should be colourful, and many words should be replaced by colourful equivalents. If you use foul language in that situation it should be barely noticable.

As to the ridiculous comments on "Manly, grown-up grimdark?". Let me counter by pointing out how equally ridiculous "Puritanical, childish cuddle-fluff" is.

There is a balance to be had. This is not a game aimed at children. It is aimed at adults, and like it or not a fairly significant portion of adults use swearing regularly in their day to day life.

If I want a character who Ned Flander's his swears, or one who Samual L Jackson's them, or one who is somewhere in between then why shouldn't I be able to have it in an adult game. It's certainly seems appropriate in a post apocalyptic game.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 17th, 2019, 3:15 am

Drool wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 2:03 pm
There was far less dialog, though.
That's probably why I liked it better. It's easier to appreciate communication when it's rare. Also, there was a whole paragraph book where people could have been using foul language. You know, in the paragraphs that weren't fake.
Drool wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 2:03 pm
And fewer instances where it would make sense like the attacking vegetables in the WL2 Ag Center or Danforth in the Prison.
Were there any foul language when attacking Danforth? I don't recall. I vaguely recall a line from a Red Skorpion about how he was 'greatly looking forward to feeding the Rangers to his dog(s)', and I found that quite provocative, without foul language. But I guess that was before I started attacking them, and after I had cured their dogs to collect the skill book.
Drool wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 2:03 pm
Gillsing wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 7:17 pm
Shove it under a rock or something, because Fallout was more grimdark, and Wasteland 2 is more grimdark than Fallout.
Honestly, it feels more inspired by Fallout 2 than the original. Fallout 2 leaned in hard on the stupid pop culture references and the swearing (Myron, anyone?).
I wasn't being specific about which particular game, or even about foul language. The whole setting felt more grimdark, whereas the first Wasteland game was more like an exciting adventure, and humans vs robots and mutants. Would've been pretty cool if they could have done something like that for Wasteland 2.

Woolfe wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 7:25 pm
Not sure of your point.
My point is that foul language isn't necessary, much like toilet breaks for fictional characters aren't necessary either. I don't have a problem with either, but I also don't demand that they should be in games because 'that's what people do in real life, and would do if they lived in the game world'. I certainly don't think it's silly to remove unnecessary parts in games. Sometimes less is more.

I can't recall a single line of dialogue in Wasteland 2 where foul language made an impact for me. The Robbinsons habitually swearing and trying to teach Mannerites to swear seemed downright childish to me. Especially given that doing so could put someone up as next month's courtesy meat, assuming that Mannerites would even be willing to take a bite out of someone so foul. Though I suppose everyone who's been eating the courtesy meat might have some slight brain damage, so that could explain why they're acting more like children.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm

good thing they're not making a game tailered to one guy's preferences, huh?
otherwise none of us would want to play it
especially when that one guy comes up with the dumbest ideas for a post-apocalyptic RPG

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 18th, 2019, 2:49 am

Gillsing wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 3:15 am
Woolfe wrote:
July 16th, 2019, 7:25 pm
Not sure of your point.
My point is that foul language isn't necessary, much like toilet breaks for fictional characters aren't necessary either. I don't have a problem with either, but I also don't demand that they should be in games because 'that's what people do in real life, and would do if they lived in the game world'. I certainly don't think it's silly to remove unnecessary parts in games. Sometimes less is more.

I can't recall a single line of dialogue in Wasteland 2 where foul language made an impact for me. The Robbinsons habitually swearing and trying to teach Mannerites to swear seemed downright childish to me. Especially given that doing so could put someone up as next month's courtesy meat, assuming that Mannerites would even be willing to take a bite out of someone so foul. Though I suppose everyone who's been eating the courtesy meat might have some slight brain damage, so that could explain why they're acting more like children.
Sometimes less is less as well.

Whilst I appreciate that can't recall a line etc, big deal. I can't recall a lot of the lines. None of that is important.

You do get the irony of bringing up the Robbinsons vs Mannerites in this discussion :lol:

I mean they were literally the opposites on purpose. Robbinsons were vulgar were Mannerites were not. I've never confirmed it, but I always thought that it may have been inspired by some of the stupid arguments that have occurred here in our forums(and probably others).

Anyway... in game stories aside. As I said, swearing is simply another bit of story. A character can be crude, a character can be polite. It is simply another method to tell an aspect of a story.
To simply rule it out because "ooh bad words" is just pointless, as pointless as purposefully putting them in where they aren't appropriate.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 17th, 2019, 1:25 pm
good thing they're not making a game tailered to one guy's preferences, huh?
otherwise none of us would want to play it
especially when that one guy comes up with the dumbest ideas for a post-apocalyptic RPG
And what would that be? You seem to be under the false impression that I would want everyone courteous. You miss the point that if you cannot say an insult without swearing, why do you assume that swearing will fix that lack? Where's the wit? Where's the genius? They claim to have a writer for the story but we get this? (Fishlips demo clip) Where's this writer's skill, his talent evident in memorable quotable lines? What makes you think you, me, and the rest of the customer base does not deserve the talent of running a spellcheck? Of substituting a few better curses and phrases? Of using the talents they claim to have on the project. THAT is 'my preferences'. No swearing present in the game is just an outgrowth of that.
It's only being put in the game because of "rating attraction vectors" and a work without the swearing is better. Make them work for it.
As for dumb ideas, I want you to go read up on Gammarauders.
Woolfe wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 2:49 am
A character can be crude, a character can be polite. It is simply another method to tell an aspect of a story.
To simply rule it out because "ooh bad words" is just pointless, as pointless as purposefully putting them in where they aren't appropriate.
Good points, Woolfe. To rule in swearing just because they want a higher age rating doesn't mean they're accomplishing anything memorable either. Lazy writing means lazy results. They must create something solid and smart and entertaining. If they're swearing to bluster to try to get a few drunks who wandered away from Fortnite then they're going in the wrong direction. I played wl1 when I was a teen because I enjoyed it, not because there were naughty words. If the wl3 team can't deliver what they promise then they should reexamine what they've already done, remove the idiotic stuff and put in some snappier stuff. Just because it's post-apoc. doesn't mean they're all idiots. Even in wl1 there were libraries and clean living.
Swearing adds nothing to the game. It wastes chances to be something good. Idiots foul things up and then claim it's on topic "because he did it!" (The character Bulldog, for example.) or because they know some idiot in real life who does the same.
I approach the Wasteland series as someone who wants to fix the world, not as someone who wants to hang out with cursing biker-fodder for 40 hours.
That Gillsing and Wolfe says the swearing goes in one ear and out the other is a great point. It's just not memorable, or interesting. That it doesn't stick. That it isn't worthwhile. That the programmers have to do better than that.
"The most memorable stories are about things we do not have. Happy living. Safety. Paradise."

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