Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 18th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Drool wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 5:07 pm
Conversely, you also would see it when a movie would shove in swearing to bump up the rating because they want that R or 18 rating.
The studio that did the Transformers movie, did just that, and added exactly one swear word to the film, to bump up the rating to PG. :lol:

They did this to ensure that their film didn't die a horrible death in the matinee; they forced the theaters to play it for the evening crowds too.

**It's ironic that they might have needed it, because the film begins with the brutal murders of several major characters; and had kids leaving the theater in tears. :? (It was a great movie.)

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 19th, 2018, 2:56 pm

Gizmo wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 7:45 pm
The studio that did the Transformers movie, did just that, and added exactly one swear word to the film, to bump up the rating to PG.
It was done with a slasher movie in the 80s, too. The MPAA gave it a PG rating and they went and shot new footage to add a couple kills because, "Ain't nobody gonna see a PG slasher flick!"

For the life of me I can't remember the name, which is really annoying.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 21st, 2018, 1:06 am

Drool wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 2:56 pm
Gizmo wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 7:45 pm
The studio that did the Transformers movie, did just that, and added exactly one swear word to the film, to bump up the rating to PG.
It was done with a slasher movie in the 80s, too. The MPAA gave it a PG rating and they went and shot new footage to add a couple kills because, "Ain't nobody gonna see a PG slasher flick!"
Yes, that, you get it. Now take it a few more steps. So there's one or two swear words. They shouldn't be in there, and programmers wouldn't take the time to add a checkbox to the option menu over one text/audio track. And while we're all being played for chumps, a little inventiveness wouldn't hurt any. There's a wide range of ways to earn a "adult" rating, no matter how faux-adult it is. The Red Scorpion radio ad handled it alright, but there could be more. You lot of thick skulls are caught on the same point of swearing isn't needed or acceptable. If you want a rating level, just find a better way to get it.

Hmm, an example? TinTin's Captain Haddok portrayed gruff and fowl-mouthed for generations of young readers and the worst that ever got was grawlixes, while still being a better performance then the common biker trope. While even mentioning something like TinTin could seem childish to some, the amount of action and destruction fits in well with the amount of destruction with Wasteland.
Or, given the Wl1 baddies that had a love of nuclear mathematics, a running joke about the mathematical weight of a damn. or asking how that compared to the damns of other people.
I don't give a (whatever)
"If you did, how much would that damn be? I'm trying to compared damns to see if there's an increase or decrease. What's it's mathematical constant?"
Wl3 isn't some trashy game, with the writers filling in the areas they were too lazy to cover with swearing in an effort to act macho.
There's a vast difference between a stream of gibberish swearing, and dialogue like "This isn't just a laser gun, this will fry his ass like back bacon."
Salty dialogue isn't the same as stringing together random swear words. Just because the American media culture has abandoned subtlety as a concept doesn't mean they were right to do so. And yet the whole Wl3 game could be created without any swearing at all, IF the prog/dev/or write team did their jobs properly beyond making sure it didn't crash xboxes. There's a story to craft, there. Just because a writer is drunk at work doesn't mean the same mood of carelessness will be picked up well to the people playing the game.
Take Bard's Tale 2004 for instance. It was clearly intended as a satire on RPG and swashbuckler tropes. But, if it didn't have biting humor and acceptable gameplay, then all the intents in the world wouldn't matter.
There is an A for effort and that's how the game is regarded. How entertaining? How many people would be saying "You got to try this game" or watch this youtube video. (shrug). People respond to quality, and lack of quality fills trash bins not sales projections. A few naughty words? Something that humdrum's not going to sell anything.
Last edited by Mole204 on June 21st, 2018, 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 21st, 2018, 1:13 am

Since the discussion has deviated YET again to trying to discuss finer points with a brick wall, let's try to get back to one of the other questions raised. In fact, let's hear what you have to say on this one. Perhaps the question was raised on one of the other Wl2 threads.

Open question for Sean, to ask someone involved in the game development.
"Does the Wasteland series license include the Serpoids?"

--
Explanation and expansion and such follows, though that doesn't need to be the question voiced.
The Ranger Headquarters of Wl1 has seen an expansion in Wl2, as also the Rail Nomads, including the Engineer. The Mars setting location of Darwin Base of Wl1 wasn't explored in Wl2. The Night Terror made an appearance, and even got a stuffed doll.The paragraph book expanded on the roles of many portions of the Wl1 game. Mulefoot, the Engineer, the secret base personnel, etc.
The Serpoids, lizard men, a classic-style alien menace from the stars, was mentioned extensively in the Wl1 paragraph book. They had not made an appearance in Wl2, though
lizard men and the type had been part of several Interplay games, including the Night Screamers of Wl1. So the groundwork of that clearly IS there. Even if the serpoids arn't going to be tapped for a major part of the game, how much inclusion is inclusion? Classic aliens still seem to be popular, especially in a science-fantasy setting like Wasteland, and by extent Fallout. (Amusingly there was even a Barsoom revival in the time since wl1, with "uneven successes" and pockets of resistance continue to this day.) One could add serpoids and not have more of an encounter than Wl2's return to Project Darwin, or the caves under Highpool. Or smaller. If the Serpoids are part of Wasteland, are we at the "use it or lose it" portion of time for the series? Three is clearly where a trilogy ends, after all.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 21st, 2018, 1:36 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 1:06 am
So there's one or two swear words. They shouldn't be in there, and programmers wouldn't take the time to add a checkbox to the option menu over one text/audio track. And while we're all being played for chumps, a little inventiveness wouldn't hurt any.
Eh... I dunno... In the case of the Transformers movie, the swear word was uttered after they had fed small moon (rigged to explode) to a pursuing robotic creature (it was larger than the moon). It detonated in the thing's mouth as they were escaping it via spaceship. They cheered its apparent destruction, but when the dust cleared, it was completely unharmed, and without so much as a burp; I took the cursing as justified. :D
"Does the Wasteland series license include the Serpoids?"
It was my (perhaps mistaken) understanding that this was meta-content in the paragraph book; added solely to prank the player (for reading passages in the book, where they were not instructed to do so). I would be surprised if it did include them in the IP license—same as if the Fallout license were to include Tim Cain's Muffin recipe.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 21st, 2018, 1:52 am

Gizmo wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 1:36 am
talk talk talk and moons get eaten
They cheered its apparent destruction, but when the dust cleared, it was completely unharmed, and without so much as a burp; I took the cursing as justified. :D
I didn't see that one, and just don't like the Micheal Bay films. A few days back someone pointed out a video game cutscene, with adult humor. There was one swear word, bleeped. In context it was justified, but only because it was bleeped. It helped show just how crazy the scene had gotten. Vulgar or trashy isn't fun, isn't funny, isn't good enough. What would your stance on obvious boneheaded typos be? It may as well be the same category.

Serps- Yes, but it's original meta-content. And now it's time for Wasteland 3. What other time would there be to include the serpoids? What other time would be left? Be realistic. There was never anything wrong with the serpoids. They would have to be thrown in to complete the game's content.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » June 21st, 2018, 8:30 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 1:52 am
Gizmo wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 1:36 am
talk talk talk and moons get eaten
They cheered its apparent destruction, but when the dust cleared, it was completely unharmed, and without so much as a burp; I took the cursing as justified. :D
I didn't see that one, and just don't like the Micheal Bay films. A few days back someone pointed out a video game cutscene, with adult humor. There was one swear word, bleeped. In context it was justified, but only because it was bleeped. It helped show just how crazy the scene had gotten. Vulgar or trashy isn't fun, isn't funny, isn't good enough. What would your stance on obvious boneheaded typos be? It may as well be the same category.

Serps- Yes, but it's original meta-content. And now it's time for Wasteland 3. What other time would there be to include the serpoids? What other time would be left? Be realistic. There was never anything wrong with the serpoids. They would have to be thrown in to complete the game's content.
He's talking about the very original transformers movie.

And your opinion is wrong. Vulgar and Trashy can be funny in context, can also be dreadful in context, more importantly they can be appropriate in context... Funny how Context seems to be so important. Of course you are free not to like it. But that doesn't make you correct.

WL world, where there has been a breakdown in Laws and Morales, where raiders pillage and murder, seems to be an appropriate context for vulgarity
and trash to me.

As to the Serpioids. They didn't exist in WL1... and in WL2 only as a vaguely amusing reference to the original paragraph book. Your continued focus on them after having been shown numerous times that they never existed IN GAME, is odd to say the least.

Just let it go...
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 21st, 2018, 9:04 pm

Woolfe wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 8:30 pm
He's talking about the very original transformers movie.
And ya see?... What happened to Fallout happened to Transformers before it; (and TMNT). :cry:
_________
In regards to the OP:
  • Remove swearing, use creativity instead. You're making a product, not disappointment.
    I am indifferent to this one, but if they plan to make it rated M, then it should not be a T title with a bit cursing used just to tip the scale. Realistically cursing would be commonplace, and there would be kids, and teens that cannot distinguish cursing from regular speech.
  • A paragraph book.
    I would like this, but only if the game had been much—MUCH more in keeping with the original Wasteland than it is. As it is, there is no need for copy protection of that style anymore (it's useless for that now), and the platforms all have enough storage to embed any and all of what they care to write, into the game itself.

    On a related noted I've seen a shocking consensus among Gold-box players, in that they do not appreciate a adventure journal included with mods. That really surprised me; because these are the same guys that played the games when they were originally released. So... I don't think even the WL1 fans commonly want a Paragraph book. :(
  • NORAD.
    This could be cool.
  • Downgrading ram usage, like snow. "This thing has no use, let's just turn it off."
    Snow —or any graphical effects like it, are negligible I think, in terms of performance hits; and they serve a purpose. So leave them IMO.
    But optimize the engine, or how it's used. Lean and mean code is certainly preferable IMO; and letting it slide on brute force from the platform is the the very of embodiment of sloth.

    Fallout was (and is) an amazing RPG and System, and visually it's not too far removed from WL2—except that it fits in 16MB ram under Windows, and the entire program fits in a half-Gigabyte installer. That's pretty striking when you compare it to modern titles. If I can get that in a game, and lose only the ability to spin the camera, then I'm sold on the smaller game.
  • ...what you're most likely to pick when playing an RPG. DND- Wizard.
    Same here.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 22nd, 2018, 3:54 pm

Gizmo wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 9:04 pm
On a related noted I've seen a shocking consensus among Gold-box players, in that they do not appreciate a adventure journal included with mods.
I run that overlay mod that someone (I think you, actually) recommended. One of the things it has is a built in Journal, which I've found very useful, especially when recording gameplay (a damn sight more convenient than pulling over a PDF).

When it comes to paragraph/journal/etc books in general, it's more a matter of the technology moving beyond them. While I've argued repeatedly that the color palette of Wasteland was an aesthetic choice and not just a limitation of the hardware, paragraph books are completely and entirely a product of those limitations. That's not to say there wasn't a lot of creativity in those books, there was. Even in the SSI ones which had far fewer fake entries than Wasteland did. But... we don't need to shove all of our exposition off to the side so that we can squeeze the game in under 1.44 MB. Nor do we need it for copy protection.

I really liked those code wheels too, but I'm not about to say that BT4 needs to have one just because BT3 did.

And if the reason for the paragraph book is all the fake entries, then it honestly makes even less sense. Did you know that for Wasteland: Classic they recorded every paragraph? Even the fake ones. But you have to dig down into where the game files are stored to pull them up. There's just 100-some audio files (probably .ogg but I don't remember) sitting in a folder. You're only going to find them if you go hunting for them. And frankly, who expected them to be individual audio files?

So what do? The whole point of the fake entries was that they expected you to just sit down and read the book from open to close. Those fake entries were sprinkled in there as much for copy protection as anything. Frankly, it's something best left in the past. It really only works with physical media, and any modern physical media is more than large enough to hold, well, everything.
Mole204 wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 1:52 am
What other time would be left? Be realistic. There was never anything wrong with the serpoids.
Except they don't belong, just like shape-shifting hyper-dimensional deities don't belong.

At this point, I'm beginning to think that you are either completely incapable of grasping the most basic of concepts such as "in the game" and "not in the game" (perhaps you could brush up; I hear Grover explains "near" and "far" quite well, that would be a good foundation to build on), or you are deliberately trolling.

Or you're an alien from another world who doesn't understand our human ways.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 22nd, 2018, 5:07 pm

Drool wrote:
June 22nd, 2018, 3:54 pm
Did you know that for Wasteland: Classic they recorded every paragraph? Even the fake ones. But you have to dig down into where the game files are stored to pull them up. There's just 100-some audio files (probably .ogg but I don't remember) sitting in a folder. You're only going to find them if you go hunting for them. And frankly, who expected them to be individual audio files?
Could it be that they (or their contractor) didn't know which were the fakes? (...or perhaps even that there were fake paragraphs?)

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 23rd, 2018, 12:50 am

obody gonna understand a slasher flick if they partition the three types of footage- story stuff, attention begging and nudity, the slasher parts.

At this point, I'm beginning to think that you are either completely incapable of grasping the most basic of concepts such as "in the game" and "not in the game"
Get your fingers out of your ears, Drool (Or you're skipping large amounts of text in these posts and it _really_ shows.) You're losing track of what you're talking about _again_, so I'll go over it _again_. : Wl1 didn't have the Serpoids appearing in the game, but had some near-lookalike monsters. The paragraph book is part of the Wasteland 1 game, in some aspect. It would have to be part of the license of Wl1 because it was material created for wl1, right? So with Wl3 in development, this would be the last chance for the Serpoids to be "on stage" as it were. Just throw them in there. You still have yet to explain why you are so against the idea. I just think that, being so promising in wl1, they should be used in wl3, before the end comes. Not even something lengthy. Short, like the Wrecking Crew that attacked Highpool. Or shorter, just the Wrecking crew headquarters. Or not just not-connected from the main quests, but hidden, and the players would have to do the thing that reveals the thing- like how to get to the Duran Duran gang in LA. So even though you irrationally dislike them, there's ways to put them in Wl3 rather than let them fade away forever. Let Mulefoot be forgotten, let's keep open the option for an even bigger 'event' shootout. If you hated getting sci-fi elements in an adventure rpg, you'd hate Numenera.
The rail nomads were part of Wl1, what did you think of how they were expanded upon in wl2? Since you're to chatty about Serpoids not being in wl1, how should they go into wl3? What mood, what goals, what style, brief or lengthy appearance? What do you think of a serp NPC join-up, like Redhawk or Lexicanium?

And once again yes, there's no need for a physical paper Paragraph Book. That's not what's being argued about. A digital PDF could do the same thing. Or nearly so, there's no need to keep the text in the paragraph book, like you'd said, yes it should go in the game. But you seem to have a hard time putting the pieces together mentally. The topic of a paragraph book for Wl3 is something that has yet to be. You agree it's feasible. You agree it's not problematic in size. It wouldn't even take long to create- background material, short filler for a few characters and locations, even a longer description of a few items. If a player doesn't want to read it, they wouldn't have to read it. But it's something that was missing in Wl2 and should be brought back in 3. (Did they think that the Southwestern Folklore could replace it? Was that the reason that was there?) If you can bring up the game creator's credits on the main menu, you can just as easily bring up the paragraph book on the main menu. And read all about the sorts of things that Snake Vargas's hat has survived. But how long? The 1st pb was 100 pages. Even cutting that down to 20, 25 pages would still suffice, at a minimum. It's an easter egg, it's a bonus feature, it's part of the character of the series. As long as it's _there_.

Code wheels! :) Now that would be useless for the player base! Perhaps that should be an item, like the various SecPasses. x millirads over y steps equals drinking z much milk over tau amount of time... Not a useful item, but the game IS going to Colorado!

They audiobooked the paragraph book for Wasteland The Classic?
I have _got_ to get the time to start wl2 dc...

Gizmo
but if they plan to make it rated M, then it should not be a T title with a bit cursing used just to tip the scale.

Yes, that's the compromise. But how do you think it will go with swearing being part of the random encounters. How many times have you heard that one npc guy go YEAH.? That's something that really can't get repeated with some of the saltier language. And it'll totally screw up speedruns and youtubing. One-through encounters like Fishlips will be bad enough, but that's your "realistic" swearing, and you seem to think it would be automatically limited to sensible events. The option to program it in should just get removed, and hopefully someone will use their heads for a moment when typing up the game's events and actions.

Snow Removal- Negligible is not a straight line across the Xbox, the Ps4, the forest of different pc's that people will Steam-load the game on. Err on the side of caution. If it's not there, it can't mess up. Granted, it should be the default, just a default that can be switched off.

Please explain what an Adventure Journal is, so that we're both working from the same description. Would the mission logs page for Wl2 qualify as that or is it something else?

-
Construction checklist. The old Interplay things:
Mirror. Shovel. Big cryo-tube machine in the background somewhere. Has Brian Fargo ever explained why these kept appearing in the games? If he has, I missed it.

Frozen Waste, the song. I thought it quite forgettable. I can play it and nearly forget it is playing. After the opening moments, there is nothing in there that grabs the attention. There's long stretches where it just sort of dies out. It's perfect background music though, so it must be doing what it's supposed to be doing. But that all sounds like a negative review.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 23rd, 2018, 1:24 am

It would be bad IMO, if the game included swearing, but had no sense of how frequently it was used. It could track how often it occurred, and what words were selected...and rotate the usage, or it could just use them very sparingly; certainly in a single conversation, or battle. Otherwise they would all lose their impact over time, and start to grate on the player. Swears are for spice, and we all know how badly over-seasoning can be. (A little pepper is grand, but heaping teaspoons of pepper will ruin almost any dish.)
Mole204 wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 12:50 am
Please explain what an Adventure Journal is, so that we're both working from the same description. Would the mission logs page for Wl2 qualify as that or is it something else?
They are effectively the same thing. The Gold-Box series of games from SSI, had similar hardware & storage limitations as Wasteland & Bard's Tale. Graphical notes, and larger conversations usually appeared as entries in the adventurer's journal; a companion booklet that came in the box along with the manual. The player would be instructed to read it there, (presumably before continuing).

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 23rd, 2018, 3:06 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 12:50 am
Get your fingers out of your ears, Drool (Or you're skipping large amounts of text in these posts and it _really_ shows.)
No, I'm ignoring nonsense. But sure. I'll play along. FYI, logical paragraph breaks make things much easier to follow.
You're losing track of what you're talking about _again_, so I'll go over it _again_.
Not in the slightest. You're the one spouting non-sequitors.
: Wl1 didn't have the Serpoids appearing in the game, but had some near-lookalike monsters.
Pretty impressive considering they're never really given a physical description in the Paragraph Book. They're assumed to be some kind of serpent person, but that's about it. Not sure what in the game could possibly be a "lookalike monster".
The paragraph book is part of the Wasteland 1 game, in some aspect.
Yes. In that the things in the book that are actually in the game are a part of the game. Such as the Courthouse password being Muerte. Or the triplets' bracelets containing the combination to Ugly's safe. Things in the book that aren't in the game are not a part of the game.

The issue here is your apparent inability to tell the difference.
It would have to be part of the license of Wl1 because it was material created for wl1, right?
Yes. Just like the Instruction Manual. Unless a weird deal was to be made for bits and bobs and not the whole thing.
So with Wl3 in development, this would be the last chance for the Serpoids to be "on stage" as it were.
What you seem to be completely incapable of understanding is that they were never "on stage". They don't belong in the game and shouldn't be in the game.
Just throw them in there.
Why? Should we also "just throw in" the offensively broad gay stereotype version of Crumb, too? Should we also throw in the showering woman who wants to be in Bard's Tale?
You still have yet to explain why you are so against the idea.
THEY
WERE
JUST
A
JOKE

I just think that, being so promising in wl1, they should be used in wl3, before the end comes.
What does that even mean? How is something not in the game "so promising"?
Not even something lengthy. Short, like the Wrecking Crew that attacked Highpool.
So a major opening plot point that spans one multi-part, sprawling location and another self contained location while tying directly into the main plot of the game.

You don't seem to know what "short" means either.
Or shorter, just the Wrecking crew headquarters. Or not just not-connected from the main quests, but hidden, and the players would have to do the thing that reveals the thing- like how to get to the Duran Duran gang in LA. So even though you irrationally dislike them, there's ways to put them in Wl3 rather than let them fade away forever.
There's nothing to fade away as they were never there in the first place.
Let Mulefoot be forgotten, let's keep open the option for an even bigger 'event' shootout.
What?! So you want to eliminate something that was actually in the game and add something that wasn't.
If you hated getting sci-fi elements in an adventure rpg, you'd hate Numenera.
...I never said that? Nor implied it.
The rail nomads were part of Wl1, what did you think of how they were expanded upon in wl2?
The expansion was nice enough, but the internal politics made little sense and much of it largely ignored the lore established in WL1. I've actually complained about it before, but long story short: they completely eliminated one tribe and made the psychotic murder-happy tribe one of the main tribes. Furthermore, they never really addressed the complete 180 in their views on how the trains should work.
Since you're to chatty about Serpoids not being in wl1, how should they go into wl3? What mood, what goals, what style, brief or lengthy appearance?
Are you seriously asking me this? They shouldn't be in the game. At all.
What do you think of a serp NPC join-up, like Redhawk or Lexicanium?
No.
And once again yes, there's no need for a physical paper Paragraph Book. That's not what's being argued about. A digital PDF could do the same thing. Or nearly so, there's no need to keep the text in the paragraph book, like you'd said, yes it should go in the game.
Which means there's no real point to the paragraph book. Even if there's a pdf, why would I ever look at it if all the text is in the game? Do you just want a dozen or so random joke "entries" so you can howl about them come WL4?
But you seem to have a hard time putting the pieces together mentally.
That's rich.
The topic of a paragraph book for Wl3 is something that has yet to be. You agree it's feasible. You agree it's not problematic in size. It wouldn't even take long to create- background material, short filler for a few characters and locations, even a longer description of a few items. If a player doesn't want to read it, they wouldn't have to read it. But it's something that was missing in Wl2 and should be brought back in 3.
My contention is, and has always been, that there was no purpose to it. Your contention, on the other hand, seemed to be that it was critical to the game.
(Did they think that the Southwestern Folklore could replace it? Was that the reason that was there?)
I'm not entirely sure what the deal with that was. It might have been a sorta-kinda paragraph book. Mostly, it was just a source of frustration because of the lore contradictions it introduced.
If you can bring up the game creator's credits on the main menu, you can just as easily bring up the paragraph book on the main menu.
Um. I never argued that it was some impossibility. Just that it was unnecessary.
And read all about the sorts of things that Snake Vargas's hat has survived.
...what?
But how long? The 1st pb was 100 pages. Even cutting that down to 20, 25 pages would still suffice, at a minimum. It's an easter egg, it's a bonus feature, it's part of the character of the series. As long as it's _there_.
And, again, I think there are far more important things to worry about.
Code wheels! :) Now that would be useless for the player base! Perhaps that should be an item, like the various SecPasses. x millirads over y steps equals drinking z much milk over tau amount of time... Not a useful item, but the game IS going to Colorado!
You do know there's a difference between the real world and the game world, right? And how on earth does going to Colorado make a code wheel make sense?
They audiobooked the paragraph book for Wasteland The Classic?
I have _got_ to get the time to start wl2 dc...
Those are two different games, but yes. The Tom Bodett-sounding guy did every entry. His Spanish is still dreadful, but...


--


Hm. Nope. Didn't miss anything. Just you bringing up the same points over and over again while seeming to be completely disconnected from reality and unable to discern reality from fantasy, as well as plenty of utter non-sequitors.

I stand by my assessment.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Woolfe
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » June 23rd, 2018, 10:46 pm

Yeah Mole, people are reading what you wrote. You are simply wrong. Serpiods were a joke inserted to confuse people who read the paragraph book before playing the game.

That's it. Your insistence on ignoring that is insane.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 23rd, 2018, 10:55 pm

Gizmo wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 1:24 am
Otherwise they would all lose their impact over time, and start to grate on the player.
Yes, thank you, Gizmo, that's my natural starting point: impatience for idiocy. WL isn't about having to suffer cavemen talking about the contents of their bowels, it's about removing those bowels with sci-fi lasers for wild west justice.
They are effectively the same thing.
I found that so useful. Both the paper books, and later the Wl2 logs. Sure, people could play it by memory, but not everyone's going to do that.

The serpoids weren't critical to Wl1, not any more than Ag Center was or the mine was. But fun was critical to the game, and to Wl2 as well.
I may skip a day or so between checking the board but when you are denying the points made by others and yourself over some odd anti-serpoid idea you certainly aren't keeping up intelligent conversation or the exploration of alternate possibilities. Attempts to draw you into the conversation, let you explain your side of it beyond "Don't like it, bye." You must have some better idea, but all you're saying is "No serpoids. 'Bye."
You're the one with an inability to realize that they were as much a part of the game as the box art, or the sound effects. Part of the game, even if you, yourself, chose to ignore it.
Not sure what in the game could possibly be a "lookalike monster".
Don't look now, but your avatar pic is one of them. If you remove all the scales from a lizard man you'd get the same look as the WL1 monster as your avatar. You could give it a hue change if you want to see it in green. Another is that thing with the doll and the twitching leg.
Drool wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 3:06 pm
The mood change in the Rail nomads.
I think we're just supposed to accept that under "Here's WL2, because it takes us 30 years to do something cool."
And how on earth does going to Colorado make a code wheel make sense?
More military bases. More abandoned hospital stations. Go watch some abandoned places on youtube. Code wheels would make as much sense as any of the rest of Wl2's junk items.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWpF5lkB_I8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q7ZVXOU3kM
While relying on code wheels for anything more then "you have the item, it solves the problem" might be a drag, it still helps to hearken back to some of the offline era's security methods.

[/quote]And, again, I think there are far more important things to worry about.[/quote]
Like what? The programmers would have any of the really hard stuff locked down. Cross-platform compatibility. File extension recognition. Projected ram usage of location loading. Multiple program meshing. At least for the Xbox and playstation4. PC's tend to be a little more anything goes.
I never argued that it was some impossibility. Just that it was unnecessary.
The discobot was unnecessary, yet that was fun. Don't arbitrarily cut out the fun things.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 23rd, 2018, 11:21 pm

Woolfe wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 10:46 pm
Yeah Mole, people are reading what you wrote. You are simply wrong. Serpiods were a joke inserted to confuse people who read the paragraph book before playing the game.
That's it. Your insistence on ignoring that is insane.
Well, Woolfe, the matter is that there was this well explored area in the paragraph book, sprawling locations, adventure, the allure of the space-distant locations. It'd be nice to see some of that in Wl3. All that cool and none of it used.
Nothing insane about it, though Drool might be frothing at the mouth because he can't fathom the inclusion of the serpoids. It's like demanding that other people think that rodeo clowns aren't part of the rodeo. It's like demanding that the wizard be removed from the Wizard of Oz because he wasn't magical enough to fit the rest of the setting. It's like making a big deal over the inclusion of cowboys in WL2. It makes sense to me, and I guess that campfire bit was somebody's favorite scene in Blazing Saddles. Not a sticking point, shrug and move on.
Now as for the Serpoids, yes they were a joke inclusion. But it strongly ties into some of the backstory given for WL1. The serps would be the perfect explanation for how everything goes so wrong, even though it's the human weapons that do it to Earth. Shrug Mutation is as good an explanation as any over the variety of mutants and monsters in Wl1, but a little tampering and left-overs from the remaining serpoids are also just as good an explanation as why you can find anything like a Proton Ax in Arizona. And lizard men have always appeared in fiction, and in several game from Interplay.
I think that WL3 is going to be the last one. Brian Fargo is said to be retiring. Fallout will likely continue, and continue to gobble up the best ideas and make it in their style. If the serpoids never appear in wl3 they'll never appear. There will be no booster pack for wl3, no level addition, no Panda World, and maybe no Director's Cut game. That makes the Serpoids, like the paragraph book, a missing puzzle piece, or an extra puzzle piece in a completed puzzle. "Oh, look, now the guy has fangs instead of a smile. That makes this look a bit more sinister."
With no WL4, or at least no wl4 before, what?, 2020? I think I can be excused wanting to see them appear in the series that promised them so long ago. With Wl2 being what it was- promising "retro" that it didn't deliver-, I just think that the Serpoids help build the story better then the rust and machismo we've seen out of wl 2 and 3 so far. I didn't even suggest them as main characters, just an encounter like Darwin Base in wl2. It'd be easy to stash them in the mountains somewhere. Or crash them in the mountains somewhere...

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 23rd, 2018, 11:24 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 10:55 pm
...an inability to realize that they were as much a part of the game as the box art, or the sound effects. Part of the game, even if you, yourself, chose to ignore it.
But —AFAIK...there was at no time a prompting by the game to read those paragraphs; such that if played as intended, the player would never encounter those story elements in any play-through of the game... or am I mistaken about this? [@Drool]

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 23rd, 2018, 11:40 pm

Now as for Paragraph Book, I think it can be handled with a small pdf. There are files that pcs can read on playstation/ xbox disks, and there are ways that a small file- text or pdf- would be accessible from the main menu of the console game.
Just trying to figure out a way that that would be feasible for wl3. Because why not?
Something like the following, though some of the entries should be expanded just because. But that's not my problem. :) They should just be snipits about the game, information, personification that wouldn't fit, or just a file full of things that would be too crazy for the game. Like the internal monologue of a piece of a player's equipment, some of the difficulties encountered in building Base X, how The Patriarch went shopping for silverware, or being attacked by a vampritic florescent tube.

1 (if possible the guy who wrote the first paragraph book, or Fargo, decides if the shower girl got into the bard's tale game) The shower girl tells us what a paragraph book is and why we shouldn't be reading it.
2 Included with the scissors and roll of gauze your first aid kit includes a piece of paper with corporate information, an address, instructions of how to open the box, and the ad jingle: No matter how soundly you snooze, you will still need a better pillow then Snakehead Booze. No matter how swiftly you run, you will still need FAK's to save your buns.
3 Under the rocks you find more rocks, just wet rocks.
4 Looking under the mattress, you find several coins in bad condition and a badly cracked CD case. The cd is missing. (The CD is located in the computer's optical drive.)
5 The instructions for installing a model b-y7 scope glass on a Silicon Sniper.
6 The projected efficiency report for operating a Threshing Crawler in the gravity of Mars.
7 Description of one of the Patriarch's mounted mutant deer-heads.
8 All 17 video cassettes are of cats playing with a North Colorado squirrel.
9 Someone has confused radio jingle and radio jungle. The base commander is not amused, and has scrapped the press release about Anheiser Base.
10 A report detailing how no-one below the rank of corporal can be allowed to know the whereabouts, existence of, or (crossed out with marker) of this military installation. This is followed by a list of military personnel who had been executed for being transferred to this base.
11 A memo complaining about the amount of man-hours it will take to create the wall plating asked for in the base's plans for the medical center. The last line is written in pencil: What about the rest of the base?
12 Pleasant drive to work today. Light traffic.
13 A black cat crosses your path. You advance backwards into the elevator. You realize that the buttons on the elevator lack a 13th floor on them. This seems to have been deliberately designed that way, with the panel showing bare steel where the button should be. A 12 and a 14, but no 13.
14 You accidentally click, and skip over a lengthy explanation of the purpose for the Si Tango war machine. You realize that the game will not allow you to go back and choose that tempting dialogue path.
15 You find a coffee table book about people playing chess, on the chess board as the pieces.
16 It's a folder with descriptions and photographs of injuries sustained by a failure of the rocket boots.
17 A pleasant talk with him. Some interesting insights about litterers and how to deal with them, but the DNA testing is nowhere near that fast yet.
18 A page from a magazine. It's about how to cook a pie made out of corn flake cereal.
19 I said that he wasn't an expert on advanced robotics, or any robotics at all, and that he shouldn't do that to the arm. Then he drew his gun and tried to kill me. I owe that mechanic my life, and think that the charges against him are out of sane and should be dropped.
20 You turn to the Hooded Monk and stage-whisper "If it's a frozen nuclear explosion, are the candles there to warm it up? They seem a little too little too late." They glare at you something impressively, given that their faces are partially covered.
21 Glow Angel sighted. Have sent Brasten and Mr 4 to investigate.
22 You can't have the entire Ag Center be run by bunnies!
23 The car tunnel stretches on. There's only a thin gap between the lines of neatly arranged bodies. All down the entire length of the tunnel.
24 Long-winded scenery description. Apparently people think nature is beautiful and would rather describe it than suffer it.
25 Base psychologist recommends not letting Corporal Fivenhaver access to the 3rd sublevel's kitchen. The toasters in the 1st and 2nd sub's kitchen have not been replaced. Nore has C. Fivenhaver's Secpass.
26 The maintain air chills you as another gust bursts past the metal rider descending from what must have been near the top of the mountain, at speeds beyond what you could guess. The chrome glittered as the Laser Knight pulled the reigns on his gigantic Armour-plated bobcat. His helmet's red visor seems to twitch as he locks you into his meson rifle's sights. His voice booms commands in perfect uncrackly computer-filtered sound. "Halt! Identify yourself!" Your lives depend on having gathered the right SecPasses.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 23rd, 2018, 11:44 pm

Gizmo wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 11:24 pm
Mole204 wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 10:55 pm
...an inability to realize that they were as much a part of the game as the box art, or the sound effects. Part of the game, even if you, yourself, chose to ignore it.
But —AFAIK...there was at no time a prompting by the game to read those paragraphs; such that if played as intended, the player would never encounter those story elements in any play-through of the game... or am I mistaken about this? [@Drool]
If Drool wouldn't mind my answering (and I think he'd like to hear me say it): No, the serpoid paragraphs were never pointed to in Wl1's Read Paragraph #.
The player never really encountered those story elements, but the player sure encountered a lot of laser bullets and robots, and a few locations (like Ag center) mentioned in the serpoid paragraphs in the course of the game. Asking about this here does seem to have caused an inordinate amount of confusion to a few.

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Grohal
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Grohal » June 24th, 2018, 1:06 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 11:44 pm
... Asking about this here does seem to have caused an inordinate amount of confusion to a few.
You are the only one I ever heard of confusing the Serpoid-§ from the WL1 Handbook for being part of any Wasteland-related story...
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

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