Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 12th, 2018, 4:21 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 3:50 pm
What's real? Why not bring it in for wl3?
Wait, do you want it to be true to WL1 or not?

I mean, you know that there were fake paragraphs, right? Like, ones that didn't represent the reality of the game, right?
Carved into the weathered hardwood you see, "The launch code is MORTAR."

You see written here: "The launch code is MOTEKIM."

At the bottom of the last page you notice some unusual text: "The launch code is ATOM."
All three of these are supposed passwords to the nuclear warhead under the Temple of Blood in Needles. One of them will open the nose cone letting you out while the others cause it to detonate, killing the party (or trapping them if they manage to survive). Two of those entries are fake while one is real.
You creep up to the window and, in the soft, muted lights, you see a tall woman with long, blond hair. She sits before a mirror and brushes her hair, then stands and walks over to the sunken tub off to her left. She kneels and her blue, silken robe drops to the floor. She turns the water on and steam slowly fills the air.

You watch in fascination as she reaches down into the tub, whirls, and points an Uzi in your direction. "Stop reading paragraphs you're not supposed to read, creeps." She sighs deeply. "Next time I'm going to demand they put me in a Bard's Tale game, this Wasteland duty is dangerous."
This woman doesn't exist in the game. You can't actually be threatened by a woman in the shower. This is a fake entry.
You study the torn piece of paper in your hand. Originally written in red ink, the text has turned into large fuzzy blotches of pink. Though mostly unreadable, you make out the word MORTAL followed by HIDEOUT: TYRANNOSAURUS, but TYRANNOSAURUS has been scratched out and AZRAEL has been written under it.

You study the torn piece of paper in your hand. Originally written in red ink, the text has turned into large fuzzy blotches of pink. Though mostly unreadable, you make out the word MUERTE followed by HIDEOUT: THANATOS, but THANATOS has been scratched out and KAPUT has been written under it.

You study the torn piece of paper in your hand. Originally written in red ink, the text has turned into large fuzzy blotches of pink. Though mostly unreadable, you make out the word MUERTE followed by HIDEOUT: THANATOS, but THANATOS has been scratched out and MORS has been written under it.
These three entries deal with Ugly's Hideout and the Courthouse in Quartz. Two of these entries are fake while one is real.

Have I give enough examples of the difference between fake and real? Do you now understand that things were added to the paragraphs book that aren't real in the game?

I can't believe I'm doing this, but here, look at this fake paragraph:
Closer now, you can hear the conversation of the men you saw when you came in. There is a short silence after each man voices his thoughts. They speak of Martians who are impossible to kill. The Martians are stealing their food faster than ever before and they seem to be massing for a major attack. The simple weapons of the farmers are not enough to stop them. They have no idea what to do about it. One of them jumps as he notices you and they all turn to face you. A stocky man they call Miguel approaches.
That's paragraph 68. Now, there's only one Miguel in the game, and he's the guy who talks to you in the Ag Center. Here's the actual introductory paragraph:
Closer now, you can hear the conversation of the men you saw when you came in. There is a short silence after each man voices his thoughts. They speak of varmints who are impossible to kill. The varmints are stealing their food faster than ever before and they seem to be massing for a major attack. The simple weapons of the farmers are not enough to stop them. They have no idea what to do. One of them jumps as he notices you and they all turn to face you. A stocky man they call Miguel approaches.
They took the references to killer varmints and swapped them to Martians for a fake, misleading paragraph. And then they went from there, creating the Serpioids, the titanium mines, Finster's sister, so on and so forth.

Now I will admit, when I first played the game back in 1989, I became convinced that there was a secret hidden rocket to Mars in the game. After I beat the game, I went over the game with a fine-toothed comb, hunting all over the whole game trying to find it. Part of why I know the game inside out is because I spent so much time scouring every inch trying to figure out where it was hidden. Of course, I was 12 then, so I had a lot of credulity and free time.
Just because it's a line from the 1st game doesn't prevent it from being used in the 3rd game.
It's not a "line from the 1st game". It's not in the first game.

Hell, I've got an idea: Let's throw in Tyranthraxus being a glowing, talking mouse. I mean, just because it was a fake, throwaway joke tavern tale from Secret of the Silver Blades doesn't prevent it from being used in Wasteland 3! That soul had to go somewhere when the Pool of Radiance was destroyed!
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 12th, 2018, 6:33 pm

OK, I'll give a go of trying to make sense of this. ... There's a reason why turn around and run for it a good plan A.

Published on Feb 10, 2013
It didn't sound like an awesome scene. Just normal voice-acting. The swearing makes it sound even more amateurish.

theme or consistency
Just take missions one at a time. Throwing ideas around isn't as linear and dry as fact-sheets and event run-downs. Throwing clips of all the events together would sound just as disorganized.
"Researchers at the University of Rochester quizzed 1,000 people about 400 typical behaviours, and discovered a strong like between intelligence and swearing."
It may be from a university, but that's no more truthful then saying that just because it's from a church that means it must be honest.
Also, the newsblurb says like not link. It's a bunch of false claims. And any 'pleasure' from that is based more on "I'm breaking the rules and no-one can stop me in time." then on "This makes everything feel better." Complete nonsense.
Forced swearing, just to be edgy for teenagers is pretty sad,
Yes, that exactly. That's most of it. Take that out and you practically don't have any swearing left. (See Armed and Dangerous)
but if the dialog is stressed, and plausible for the situation, I don't see what the problem is with having the swearing that people actually use when freaked out; it makes it a lot more credible than having the same scene with some panic-stricken person screaming out the 'G' rated version, in fear for their life.
So you have a scene where the characters are panicking and shouting and doing nothing useful to save themselves, and if that's being written properly, which is easy, then swearing shouldn't be needed in the creation of a sense of urgency. And would as well distract from it, as with forcing the swearing in the scene because whoever is writing can't think of anything else. Sounds like a subpar plan, there.

Stressed, sure? Swearing, no. It's just a game. The characters don't have to swear to loose their cool, they just have to be shown panicking.
It's what blood sausages are for. Don't kick the * out of him, kick him into a fine red mist.
BTW... What's wrong with just copying Fallout (yet again) just a bit more, and have a built in language filter? One that in the very least bleeps the dialog, or better done, substitutes lines that match the filter level?.
1-We don't want Wl to be thought of as a FO ripoff! It's the other way around!
2- Why bother with a language filter at all? It's just up to the writers to write better dialogue, problem solved, you wouldn't let a rather bad typo go by would you? Just move on from there.

Armed and Dangerous- At least it's a comedy bit of everything sliding into chaos. The gang leader swearing there is more plausible then the radio operator swearing about the door, plus being bleeped anyway so it doesn't matter any.

While I wasn't the one to make this thread, there were other points on the list. Wl1 style infinite post-win play-ability for Wl3 should be on that as well. I think I'd rather be arguing about projected ram usage then keep explaining this one thing. Wl2 was ported for the Nintendo Switch. Perhaps wl3 will be as well. Thing is, the NS is listed as having 4 gb of memory. That means a maximum of 4, including what the OS is taking up. I know at 2gb of ram, Wl2 kept crashing when I entered the Angel city. Low Ram settings are needed, even if they turn everything into Wl1 style non-animated figures.

With all the military bases in the area, are we going to see a return to the "collecting high-clearance key-cards" side-missions?
Wait, do you want it to be true to WL1 or not?
I mean, you know that there were fake paragraphs, right? Like, ones that didn't represent the reality of the game, right? (Long list of references.)
OK, you got me, there. But everything else in the book is in the game, one way or another. Missiles, mutants, Mulefoot, etc. The Serpoids would make great filler. I never believed the "and suddenly all the bombs blow up everything." Why not have aliens as well? Especially if the aliens also lost. It was a good explanation for some of the high-tech stuff and the mutants. Raw, bleeding lizard men who's scales have all fallen out. Experimental architecture. Just a little simple, old-style, sci-fi. And also what I said about keeping the challenges going for the players. Romulan Commander doesn't have to be a rank level, but it doesn't have to avoid it either. The Children of the Patriarch are supposed to have some interestingly unique weapons, do you think it would stop at the plasma rifle? Get some Serpoid stuff out of the vault, why not?
I know that little to nothing I say will influence anything, but I wouldn't be doing this much post writing if I didn't wonder a little what you think. Why not have Serpoids? Do you think it breaks the story? The immersion? Only as much as having the Roman Army show up in one of the Fallout games. Only as much as having hidden bases with cryopods and sewers with Tronodiles. Only as much as going from wl1's well-written Darwin Base to wl2's kinda-a-let-down zombie opposition. If wl2 was a little stilted, then breaking away from that and bringing back the ingenuity shown in wl1 should be just what wl3 needs. It's doubtful there's going to be a wl4, and if there is, it wouldn't have Bryan Fargo, Retired. As well as we'd never see it before a 2025 shipping date.
Right, the woman in the shower. I guess that Bard's Tale has shipped.

Tyranthraxus the murder mouse.
Hmm, I'd approve it. At least if it had been an Interplay game. While that'd fit better with Tides of Nu. Is it any worse then finding the Duran Duran gang in wl2? Or getting a mouse animal companion? Call it the local The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog from Monty Python Holy Grail. Some of the best fun comes from things that aren't supposed to be a boss-fight but the players just don't/can't leave well enough alone. Don't be too enamored of making everything official and serious and all out in the open. If the players are going to look under every rock, in every nook and cranny of the program's game board, then from time to time they should find something. How many players found the "Balls to the wall" or "Bang your head" in Wl1? How many found Vax in Wl2? I see nothing wrong with finding a part of the wall you step into and get attacked by Serpoids, or setting free the dragon mice.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Zombra » June 12th, 2018, 7:26 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 6:33 pm
Forced swearing, just to be edgy for teenagers is pretty sad,
Yes, that exactly. That's most of it. Take that out and you practically don't have any swearing left.
Wrong.
Mole204 wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 6:33 pm
Why not have aliens as well?
Because it's dumb.

Because "anything goes" is a dumb basis for a setting.

And because it directly contradicts the canon of Wasteland 1's metagame (i.e. that the Serpioids were a lie).
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 12th, 2018, 11:25 pm

Why not have aliens as well?
Because it's dumb.
What's dumb about it? Do you hate War of the Worlds? Do you hate the Burrow's Barsoom Books? Granted, the John Carter movie a few years ago was just a mess...
Because "anything goes" is a dumb basis for a setting.
Yes, that's true. But a carefully chosen addition of some of the 80s style stuff like that used in wl1 should improve things in 3. Is it too sci-fi for you? It's no more sci-fi then the robots. Again, I point out this should be A Western, not a Space Game. There's no joining the Federation, there's only the shootout. The Serpoids wouldn't much more of a threat then, say, the Wrecking Crew headquarters from the Highpool level in 2. Logically, there shouldn't be much left of them by now, just a small holdout mountain-cave encampment like Darwin Base became in wl2. I wouldn't make them an intentional mission anyway, sort of an easter egg. Deadly lizard easter eggs.
And because it directly contradicts the canon of Wasteland 1's metagame (i.e. that the Serpioids were a lie).
The metagame? We may have different definitions of this, but: The one that A) didn't exist b) you were basically trying to dismantle a few posts ago? It's a bit late for any I Love Bees or The DaVinci Code. We've both played the same game programs, there wasn't any metagame beyond the paragraph book. Perhaps you preferred the political commentary of USA vs Russia, but I preferred the hints of martians hijacking and dropping all the munitions on board an orbiting weapons platform. It was part of a wider view of the game's past events.
Why not have Serpoids? At least the Wl license can lay claim to them. They can't just add, say, Maetel and Glass Girl from Galaxy Express just because you have a train. They're part of a different property, though that's what some npcs are for. The Serpoids were the only things to go unused, and they seemingly took up half the p.book. Yes yes, unless you want to go dig up things like the Wasteland Thought Police, but let's leave that for PsyCorp and Fahrenheit 451 and get back to looking for Crab Cars and other leftovers.
... Does the InExile time capsule count as a metagame?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 13th, 2018, 11:14 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 6:33 pm
OK, you got me, there. But everything else in the book is in the game, one way or another. Missiles, mutants, Mulefoot, etc. The Serpoids would make great filler. I never believed the "and suddenly all the bombs blow up everything." Why not have aliens as well? Especially if the aliens also lost.
Sigh.
It was a good explanation for some of the high-tech stuff and the mutants.
There already is an explanation: radiation.
Why not have Serpoids? Do you think it breaks the story?
Because they were an external joke. They were not in the game. They were not supposed to be in the game. They. Were. A. Joke.
Only as much as going from wl1's well-written Darwin Base to wl2's kinda-a-let-down zombie opposition.
WL2's Darwin being utter weaksauce is not an excuse to add stupid nonsense to WL3.
Tyranthraxus the murder mouse.
Hmm, I'd approve it.
Are you high?
I see nothing wrong with finding a part of the wall you step into and get attacked by Serpoids, or setting free the dragon mice.
No seriously, are you high?

Also, Tyranthraxus wasn't a dragon. He was a hyper-dimensional deity.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » June 13th, 2018, 11:41 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 11:25 pm
... Does the InExile time capsule count as a metagame?
How are people still getting that wrong?

Yeesh

Anyhoo... Swearing is good when appropriate. Because it sounds normal. Now you might live in a little bubble where no one swears, but swearing has been around forever and most people swear to some degree.
Wikipedia article on Profanity wrote: Research[edit]
Analyses of recorded conversations reveal that an average of roughly 80–90 words that a person speaks each day – 0.5% to 0.7% of all words – are swear words, with usage varying from 0% to 3.4%. In comparison, first-person plural pronouns (we, us, our) make up 1% of spoken words.[13]

A three-country poll conducted by Angus Reid Public Opinion in July 2010 found that Canadians swear more often than Americans and British when talking to friends, while Britons are more likely than Canadians and Americans to hear strangers swear during a conversation.[14]

Swearing performs certain psychological functions, and uses particular linguistic and neurological mechanisms; all these are avenues of research. Functionally similar behavior can be observed in chimpanzees, and may contribute to our understanding, notes New York Times author Natalie Angier.[15] Angier also notes that swearing is a widespread but perhaps underappreciated anger management technique; that "Men generally curse more than women, unless said women are in a sorority, and that university provosts swear more than librarians or the staff members of the university day care center".[15]

Keele University researchers Stephens, Atkins, and Kingston found that swearing relieves the effects of physical pain.[16] Stephens said "I would advise people, if they hurt themselves, to swear".[17] However, the overuse of swear words tends to diminish this effect.[17] The Keele team won the Ig Nobel Peace Prize in 2010 for their research.

A team of neurologists and psychologists at the UCLA Easton Center for Alzheimer's Disease Research suggested that swearing may help differentiate Alzheimer's disease from frontotemporal dementia.[18]

Neurologist Antonio Damasio noted that despite loss of language due to damage to the language areas of the brain, patients were still often able to swear.[19]

A group of researchers from Wright State University studied why people swear in the online world by collecting tweets posted on Twitter. They found that cursing is associated with negative emotions such as sadness (21.83%) and anger (16.79%) thus showing people in the online world mainly use curse words to express their sadness and anger towards others.[20][21]

An interdisciplinary team of researchers from the University of Warsaw investigated bilingual swearing: why is it easier to swear in a foreign language? Their finding that bilinguals strengthen the offensiveness of profanities when they switch into their second language, but soften it when they switch into their first tongue, but do both statistically significantly only in the case of ethnophaulisms (ethnic slurs) led the scientist to the conclusion that switching into the second language exempts bilinguals from the social norms and constraints (whether own or socially imposed) such as political correctness, and makes them more prone to swearing and offending others.[22]
Bolded some interesting tidbits :-)
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 14th, 2018, 10:25 pm

Why not have Serpoids? Do you think it breaks the story?
Drool wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Because they were an external joke. They were not in the game. They were not supposed to be in the game. They. Were. A. Joke.
So was the Hobo Dog stand, there for humor, and that was an enjoyable part of the game.
What, you'd rather limit it to the young republicans of wl2? If you were making the last wl game, and had to choose between putting in the Serpoids or not, what makes you think that another bunch of giant roaches would be a better idea? Variety is needed!
Only as much as going from wl1's well-written Darwin Base to wl2's kinda-a-let-down zombie opposition.
WL2's Darwin being utter weaksauce is not an excuse to add stupid nonsense to WL3.

Excluding the Seropids, something that might be a proper challenge, or a proper plot point, isn't very clever either. The Serps were in the pbook with chapters of decision and defeat, and Wasteland 1 and 2 needed that touch of glory. Think more the Three Musketeers then wl2's version of the beans farts from Blazing Saddles. Playing the game means throwing your party again and again into battle. Do you have something against it being a little glorious at times?

What do you think of the robots in the Temple of Blood, wl1? I think wl2 needed more robots like that. Yes, the discobot was great, but Wl3 needs something that could have been built in a garage out of bunch of exposed circuit boards.
I see nothing wrong with finding a part of the wall you step into and get attacked by Serpoids, or setting free the dragon mice.
No seriously, are you high?
No. The press releases talk about reactivity, but the players will be looking for ways to solve everything with bullets. It's there to be shot at or taken as souvenirs and pets. "Everything's gone wrong." "So kill everything." Again, variety is needed! Fewer bugs, more cool.
Also, Tyranthraxus wasn't a dragon. He was a hyper-dimensional deity.
How does that matter? Is this a Cthulhu thing?
Woolfe wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:41 pm
Bolded some interesting tidbits
Good effort, but not useful.
Neurologist Antonio Damasio noted that despite loss of language due to damage to the language areas of the brain, patients were still often able to swear
So they were brain damaged when they started, eh? Wl3 however is fiction, so it doesn't have that excuse. If you want a character to swear, think through his words. You have to take the time to type them out so they should be chosen- yes to avoid f'ing the game, and try to make them sound more vicious because of it. You may as well be trying to advocate text speek lol wot. You may want to sell to that crowd but there is no reason to try to imitate the worst of it's habits. Anyone could go sit on a bench and receive the same "content" that's in your game from random teens. Swearing is anti-content. Why spend money on it? Instead, go back to the blood sausage type quotes.
Just because the language should be clean doesn't stop the occasional "What the hell was that?" in the game. There are levels, there is an level of effort needed, a level of intelligence needed, a level demanded by people playing the game that you could just bore them with. There will not be a single person anywhere who will play your game program _for_ the swearing. Variety is needed, and in doing so the worst of it can be avoided. You're missing the point, where they could be saying something more quotable. You might be choosing to think of it as polite, but better is better. Even Final Space was better with "Oh, my crap."

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » June 15th, 2018, 3:07 am

Simply pointing out, that you are in the minority. And the science is on the majorities side as well :-D
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Grohal » June 15th, 2018, 8:07 am

I would be on his side if we are two play a group of nobility offsprings in the 17th century. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Zombra » June 15th, 2018, 9:58 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 10:25 pm
Why not have Serpoids? Do you think it breaks the story?
Drool wrote:
June 13th, 2018, 11:14 pm
Because they were an external joke.
So was the Hobo Dog stand, there for humor, and that was an enjoyable part of the game.
You really don't get the difference between something that is part of the setting and something that isn't, do you?
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 15th, 2018, 3:29 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 14th, 2018, 10:25 pm
So was the Hobo Dog stand
That was actually in the game.
If you were making the last wl game, and had to choose between putting in the Serpoids or not, what makes you think that another bunch of giant roaches would be a better idea? Variety is needed!
There are a number of ways I would have done WL2 differently. A joke in the paragraphs book is not one of them.
Also, Tyranthraxus wasn't a dragon. He was a hyper-dimensional deity.
How does that matter? Is this a Cthulhu thing?
What? No. He's from the SSI Gold Box games. It "matters" because you called him a dragon and I was correcting you. Do you even pay attention to the drivel you're typing?

No, you know what, I'm done. You have completely drained all the joy and humor I once got from the Mars storyline in the paragraph books. Every time I look at them now, all I can think of is your nonsense. I'm done bashing my head against the wall trying to explain the difference between something that is in a game and something that is not. You are either incapable of differentiating between the two (which might be a symptom of something serious) or you're just being bullheaded for the lulz. Either way, there's no sense in continuing.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by demeisen » June 15th, 2018, 4:59 pm

I've heard Edgar Allan Poe had a less famous descendant named Nathan.

Characters should just speak naturally for their personality and current situation. It would seem odd for a priest or (most) 7 year old kids to swear up a storm, and equally odd for a two-bit local thug or grizzled one-armed army vet not to.

I generally thought WL2:DC did a nice job with the post-apoc vibe (*), so I'm hoping for more where that came from in WL3. In a post-apoc world you'd expect there to be a healthy bit of swearing going on, and to omit it would be quite immersion breaking.

So, +1 for cursing ... but when it makes situational sense. It should be neither forced nor avoided.

(*) ... aside from being much too forthcoming with resources. Way too much ammo and supplies around.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 15th, 2018, 9:37 pm

Zombra wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 9:58 am
You really don't get the difference between something that is part of the setting and something that isn't, do you?
Part of the setting was still part of the game. You aren't getting the similarity between the need for more enemies, and characters that wl3 can include. They can think up new ones, include previously-cut ones (The Nancies and the Serpoids), or include old ones like the Slicerdicers. Now I'm not saying cut the slicers, but do we really need many animal encounters in wl3? At least one set non-mission encounter scene should have the serps, like how that one encounter tucked away in wl2 had the Duran Duran Gang. Just mock up some lizard men, hide them in the mountains, and let the players run for their lives. We might not be able to go back to Arizona, so there won't be any exploration of the Mars section of Darwin. That was part of the setting. The Serpoids are no more game-breaking then asking after the Silicon Snipers or Octotrons.
Serpoids wern't in the game.
Technically, so wasn't the Regan all terrain hovertank, but that'll likely be in 3.
Oh, and you were the one who mentioned Tyranthraxus, and mice, I mentioned dragon mice. Because in dnd there is always a dragon.
demeisen wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 4:59 pm
Characters should just speak naturally for their personality and current situation.
Yes, that. There's no reason for anyone to be swearing- it's that there would be a large amount of yelling going on. Don't let them get away with any f' yous, the level of work put into the game should remove that, replace that. We need more great one-liners from wl3 and any f'bombs would be going in the opposite direction.
And those who think that it being a post-apocalyptic game means that everyone swears self-indulgently forgets:
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” -Robert E. Howard.
When everyone you meet can kill you without consequence if you displease them, everyone is going to mind their manners. The phenomenon of swearing is something you can get away with -within- civilization for only two reasons. No-one wants to make their own day more difficult, so they won't call the other guy out on his idiocy. And it's a play-act of pretending to be as low and weak-minded as the next person, usually a drunk. If "we're all foul mouthed scumbags here", then no-one would be higher-up then anyone else so they can relax and not have to feel small about not being better, smarter, or higher-class at things in general. But you aren't there to coddle them, you're there to play as the Rangers! Even in the Fishlips demo reel, he's trying to intimidate the player with an act of "I'm big and mean and I can do anything I want and no-one's going to stop me." Which is, of course, why he had to die. :lol: That's all the swearing necessary to lowest-effort the age rating, so there shouldn't be any anywhere else. Yes, it should be expressive, yes it should be attention-getting, but it should also be relatively clean as well. The swearing simply has no place anywhere, and the game is better off without it. I'm not asking for Henry the 5th, but I'm asking for it to not be "The worst of Andrew Dice Clay" and no-one is trying to comprehend that. We should be arguing about how to use the "modify weapon" from wl2 to include the strange new weapons, or how to modify armor to use cd's to survive laser light, or just what sort of ruins we will encounter. Instead I get jumped on by people who should go back to primary school.
While I may have missed it, I don't recall any swearing in the Fallout 76 trailers. Because that doesn't sell. The setting full of guns and monsters does. Because the monsters are part of the setting, and the Serpoids were part of the setting of wl1.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 16th, 2018, 1:41 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 9:37 pm
demeisen wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 4:59 pm
Characters should just speak naturally for their personality and current situation.
Yes, that. There's no reason for anyone to be swearing- it's that there would be a large amount of yelling going on.
People swear. I was at a friend's house once—where several of us stopped by after school. We were all about ten to twelve years old, and everyone was casually talking about mundane stuff—kids and parents both present in and out of the TV room, when one of us (kids) asked another, "Do you know that you are cursing?"...
<stunned silence>
...to which the other (10 or 11 year old) was shocked (ashen), because he did not realize that he'd been swearing every few words for several minutes. Force of habit from when the adults were not around; this kid had an excessively strict home life, for which the school yard and friend's houses were likely an escape, where he could relax and talk casually.

People swear for many reasons, not the least of which is that it's sometimes fun; let alone when facing a life threatening surprise. Did you watch the movie Platoon? Casino? Goodfellas? Given the setting for WL3, I think it would be less credible with a careful G rated script. I am not opposed to them adding an optional language filter as a menu option.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by demeisen » June 16th, 2018, 6:12 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 9:37 pm
Yes, that. There's no reason for anyone to be swearing-
Yes there is, which I explained, and so did Gizmo just above, and several others. People swear in real life, some of them quite a lot, and it would be immersion breaking not to have characters you meet speak the same way in the game. Particularly so in a post-apoc world.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 16th, 2018, 1:37 pm

I just can't learn my lessons.
Mole204 wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 9:37 pm
Technically, so wasn't the Regan all terrain hovertank, but that'll likely be in 3.
There's one in the Needles Ammo Bunker. This would be an example of something that was actually in the game.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » June 17th, 2018, 9:49 pm

A more reasoned and reasonable response then expected. But in your case, in respect to creating wl2, unfortunately incorrect. Effort! Was any used?
I'm not trying to sound adversarial, I just typed out half this stuff before, because you lot are predictable.

“I think the real reason so many youngsters are clamoring for freedom of some vague sort, is because of unrest and dissatisfaction with present conditions; I don't believe this machine age gives full satisfaction in a spiritual way, if the term may be allowed. ”
- Robert E. Howard

You should examine your own cliche' of how you think tough guys are supposed to act. In wl1, players didn't need the Leather jerks swearing, what makes you think it would be needed in wl3? Intentionally bad story telling? Something shallow, without anything interesting. It's first draft runthrough failure. Why would you want this?
Is swearing all you have? Is it all you have to contribute? Your playing pretend that the minimum effort you're putting in is enough to achieve something? The pretend that your effort of is enough when in reality it's something that would be scraped off the bottom of a shoe?

Wrong: f' this.
Right: Numbness and resignation are my two favorite mixers. - Steven Colbert.

Wrong: Shut the ' up!
Right: Cut it out with them negative waves!

Wrong: I don't really care what goes here, so more swearing, and probably at me.
Right: I'm not arguing, you're just dense.

The villains don't need to be offensive, they just need to be 'there'. The players will take the cue to shoot them anyway.

"Why do you think it's acceptable for you to be an idiot and not acceptable for me to ask you to stop."
Is there anyone there who's career rests on making sure there's enough f'words for everybody to be offended?

I notice the merch for the game says "Ranger" not s'head. Because there's no adventure in the swearing. No fun. No entertainment. No learning. So there shouldn't be any attachment to the swearing, you're just being dense. Stop faking outrage over being told no about something. Run the spellcheck and remove it as the errors they are.
(No, I'm not going to type swear words in an argument against swearing, that'd just be stupid.) WL1 didn't have them, didn't need them. WL2 had them, didn't need them, didn't have any use for them. Wl3 looks like they'll have them, won't need them, won't have any use for them. Get over it, get to work, start putting some effort into what they'd be saying.

People swear for many reasons,
Inattentiveness. Boredom. Stupidity and idiocy. Begging for attention. Inability to read a room. Posturing.
"The game was also known for such combat prose as "Rabbit is reduced to a thin red paste" and "Thug explodes like a blood sausage", which prompted an unofficial PG-13 sticker on the game packaging in the United States. "
And yet none of that was swearing. Don't focus on being told no, focus on what you can do with the room you have. Looking at Wl2 and the wl3 demos, Wl3 desperately needs more cleverness. What sort of lines would you want in Wl3?

Drool- Serpoids are as normal as laser guns. If the Serpoids were in wl3, what would you want of, or about, and anything, them?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Zombra » June 17th, 2018, 9:58 pm

I think that pretty much sums it up.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » June 18th, 2018, 1:24 am

Mole204 wrote:
June 17th, 2018, 9:49 pm
The villains don't need to be offensive...
But what if they are intended offensive? This guy is an uncouth bastard who will curse at people on their way to the grave. You would have it be G rated sentiments?

(Assume for the example that he is not a dry wit intellect that would choose certain G rated sentiments just to make it hurt all the more for that specific person that he knows it will.)

_________

I've a question to anyone here: Would it be a pro or con feature if some (but not every) PC and NPC could swear at certain emergent events; according to their personalities. I mean like stepping on a bear trap, or getting set on fire; or for instance being in a quiet room when a 'Slicer Dicer', or Octotron suddenly drops through the ceiling? Or they could open a footlocker, and find thirty ingots of gold.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » June 18th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Mole204 wrote:
June 17th, 2018, 9:49 pm
Drool- Serpoids are as normal as laser guns.
What on earth are you talking about?
  • You claim you want Serpioids because they were "in WL1".
  • I, and many others, point out that they were not.
  • You point to the Paragraphs book.
  • I point out numerous other paragraphs that are misleading or jokes.
  • You claim that because the fake paragraphs mention something inside the game that everything in the book must therefore be in the game.
  • You then mention that the M3 RATT will be in WL3 even though it isn't in 1.
  • I point out the exact location of an M3 RATT in the first game.
  • You respond by saying "Serpoids[sic] are as normal as laser guns".
Are you a deep learning ANN that's run off the rails?

If the Serpoids were in wl3, what would you want of, or about, and anything, them?
I do not want them in the game except as a throwaway joke (like from Mr. Manners in WL2). Although, frankly, we've already had that joke (and, sadly, that joke went too far explaining itself thus draining most of the humor from it). There is no need for them to even be mentioned anywhere.

Gizmo wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 1:24 am
I've a question to anyone here: Would it be a pro or con feature if some (but not every) PC and NPC could swear at certain emergent events; according to their personalities.
Honestly, it more depends on the strength of the writing in general. It's not really the number of naughty words so much as how it's done. You see this in movies all the time. You see it in the movie that was cut down to get a lower rating, and you have people very clearly using fake swear words or having cuts remove the swears because the MPAA just counts the number of naughty words. Conversely, you also would see it when a movie would shove in swearing to bump up the rating because they want that R or 18 rating. If the swearing, or the censorship, feels forced, then the whole thing falls apart.

And that goes double for using stupid made-up swear words like "frak".
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