Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » September 21st, 2019, 1:34 pm

Mole204 wrote:
September 20th, 2019, 7:36 pm
The combat looks the same as WL2, so I guess there's no need to make any changes there.
There's some minor changes to combat, specifically to Precision shots.
A save function would be useful. For those of us who may often have to guess wrong how long it will take and have to leave Now.
...it has one?
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » September 23rd, 2019, 12:40 am

Drool wrote:
September 21st, 2019, 1:34 pm
Mole204 wrote:
September 20th, 2019, 7:36 pm
The combat looks the same as WL2, so I guess there's no need to make any changes there.
There's some minor changes to combat, specifically to Precision shots.
I can see precision shot coming back to bite us, as there's likely going to be things like "goon is immortal unless you headshot him repeatedly, and you Must bring the X ammo" and "xbox players love taking their time setting up leisurely p. shots very slowly", etc. And it's just a big step away from what Wasteland was and WL's combat system was. It's clearly a development meant for the xbox players and the way they're used to doing things (like a scrub). What's the point of most of that? I don't see that as solely a reason to think that p.s. is a bad thing, it's just that Wasteland isn't the sort of shooting gallery game like Gears of War, Halo, and the imitator horde of those trying to join the action genre. WL is a hit point based enemies game.
A save function would be useful. For those of us who may often have to guess wrong how long it will take and have to leave Now.
...it has one?
[/quote]
Good, I'll want to give that a few try-outs when the full game is released.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » September 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm

Mole204 wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 12:40 am
I can see precision shot coming back to bite us, as there's likely going to be things like "goon is immortal unless you headshot him repeatedly, and you Must bring the X ammo"
I don't know why you would expect this. Precision shots existed in the Director's Cut, they've simply changed how they're activated and seem to have made them guaranteed hits.
and "xbox players love taking their time setting up leisurely p. shots very slowly", etc.
What?
And it's just a big step away from what Wasteland was and WL's combat system was.
Yeah, that ship sailed with the last game. WL3's combat is just a lateral move from WL2:DC.
It's clearly a development meant for the xbox players and the way they're used to doing things (like a scrub).
That's some pretty PC Master Race nonsense from someone with a refurbished business computer...
that Wasteland isn't the sort of shooting gallery game like Gears of War, Halo, and the imitator horde of those trying to join the action genre. WL is a hit point based enemies game.
What are you going on about? What in WL3 makes you think it's in any way similar to a third or first person shooter?
A save function would be useful. For those of us who may often have to guess wrong how long it will take and have to leave Now.
...it has one?
Good, I'll want to give that a few try-outs when the full game is released.
Um... yes. I should think so.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » September 25th, 2019, 3:58 am

Mole204 wrote:
September 20th, 2019, 7:36 pm
the one about the random encounter combat maps don't have to be as large and hard to find the way out of.
not surprised you of all people had a hard time finding a huge ranger star that signifies the exit on a small map

and precision shots better have some use beyond instakills
I want to hobble a meaty meelee enemy's leg so he can't get to me before I riddle his hairy ass with bullets until a permanent nap ensues, ya dig?
that also means giving us big meaty meelee enemies that can take a punch, otherwise I'm not wasting my turn on slowing something down I can kill easily anyways
and headshots shouldn't be instakills anyways, one from a variety of debuffs for every bodypart is better
higher damage? sure, instant death? no
or maybe you need a shot or two to take the helmet off and then an insta kill headshot?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » September 29th, 2019, 10:23 pm

Drool wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm
And it's just a big step away from what Wasteland was and WL's combat system was.
Yeah, that ship sailed with the last game. WL3's combat is just a lateral move from WL2:DC.
That, I can work with. Adding things that would screw up simple combat just for it's own sake, I think I can be allowed suspicion.
It's clearly a development meant for the xbox players and the way they're used to doing things (like a scrub).
That's some pretty PC Master Race nonsense from someone with a refurbished business computer...
PC Master Race? You expect me to use a console? Like a peasant? As for a retail computer, yeah, I put some faith in Underwriters Laboratory. It'd be fun to warm up the soldering iron and breadboard a MB myself to a schematic (and be making swaps all the way through), but it's not been _factory certified_, y'know?
I just think I should point out that "retail box" are what 99% of the customer base is going to be using, be it PC, or xbox.
If you think that wl3 will work for everyone because 1) you/developer have X, or 2) it might have been made by a dozen people working on X, then there's gonna be compatibility problems with many of customer's gamerigs. Developers often suffer a bit of narrow vision about that.
x= High-end, overly expensive, department-brew OS or some various combination of those.
What are you going on about? What in WL3 makes you think it's in any way similar to a third or first person shooter?
That depends on how fast they're going to run the standard fight's events, mostly in relation to the Target The Part function. Call it a lack of trust over the matter of promising a pc game and delivering an xbox game. Look how different wl2 is from wl1. Understandable changes, they did a lot of good game creation, but wl3 needs a bit more entertaining impact than wl2- and Fortnite.
not surprised you of all people had a hard time finding a huge ranger star that signifies the exit on a small map
The part we disagree on here is the meaning of "a small map."
I want to hobble a meaty meelee enemy's leg
Sure, if it's _just_ hobbling the enemy, and not some convoluted "enemy can only be de-helmeted by ammo=NATO 7.3" (not available at this time), "enemy can only be limbshot by ammo=hollowpoint #3" (not available at this time). etc etc.
or maybe you need a shot or two to take the helmet off and then an insta kill headshot?
Now I'm wondering how close they can get a near-Frederico to do the Thunderdome fight from that Mad Max movie.
---
A proper game creator would want his game to be fun, accessible to all, popular and a bit addictive. The swearing is too jarring and just stupid. Can't they do better than that?
So far they've shown swearing in 2 out of 3 main encounters. Fishface, Scotchmo, and Victory. Frederico is too short and unimportant to count, though I like him.
If they have not put swearing in anywhere else in the game, I'd just call it even. You got the setting you want, the pathetic ratings grabbing-at, and enough idiots with prison tattoos to the face, to appease your predicted edgelord percentage. Just because it's post-apoc doesn't make the swearing be the only thing you should think of to put in the game. Two encounters in a 40 hour estimate aught to be enough. Let the rest of the payers ear time be taken up by gunfire and inventive lunacy.
Last edited by Mole204 on September 30th, 2019, 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » September 30th, 2019, 2:42 pm

Mole204 wrote:
September 29th, 2019, 10:23 pm
As for a retail computer, yeah, I put some faith in Underwriters Laboratory.
As UL just makes sure it won't burn your house down, I'm not sure why you're going to them for computer advise.
It'd be fun to warm up the soldering iron and breadboard a MB myself to a schematic (and be making swaps all the way through), but it's not been _factory certified_, y'know?
...or just buy one on Amazon, Mr. Excluded Middle.
I just think I should point out that "retail box" are what 99% of the customer base is going to be using, be it PC, or xbox.
99% of the customer base doesn't talk about Console Peasants.
If you think that wl3 will work for everyone because 1) you/developer have X, or 2) it might have been made by a dozen people working on X, then there's gonna be compatibility problems with many of customer's gamerigs.
No, I think it's going to work with the bulk of computers less than 8 years old as Unity isn't the most demanding engine out there. It may not work well, but it should be passable. Again, the biggest issue you've been having is because you're using integrated video.
department-brew OS
...what?
Look how different wl2 is from wl2
Deep, man.
A proper game creator would want his game to be fun, accessible to all, popular and a bit addictive. The swearing is too jarring and just stupid.
To you. You and Jack Thompson are pretty much the only people who care about this.
Two encounters in a 40 hour estimate aught to be enough. Let the rest of the payers ear time be taken up by gunfire and inventive lunacy.
Even the crazy old biddies at the MPAA allow two swears per two hour movie.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » October 1st, 2019, 12:03 am

Mole204 wrote:
September 29th, 2019, 10:23 pm
Drool wrote:
September 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm
That's some pretty PC Master Race nonsense from someone with a refurbished business computer...
PC Master Race? You expect me to use a console? Like a peasant? As for a retail computer, yeah, I put some faith in Underwriters Laboratory. It'd be fun to warm up the soldering iron and breadboard a MB myself to a schematic (and be making swaps all the way through), but it's not been _factory certified_, y'know?
I just think I should point out that "retail box" are what 99% of the customer base is going to be using, be it PC, or xbox.
If you think that wl3 will work for everyone because 1) you/developer have X, or 2) it might have been made by a dozen people working on X, then there's gonna be compatibility problems with many of customer's gamerigs. Developers often suffer a bit of narrow vision about that.
x= High-end, overly expensive, department-brew OS or some various combination of those.
Refurbished business computer does not equal retail box.

The Steam Hardware Survey below is probably one of the best samples of PC usage you will ever get.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

73% of users are on Win 10 64 bit - 91% Win 10 in general
70% Ram - 8 - 16 gb
52% have 4 CPUs 76% have 2-4 and 93% have 2-6
50% have a Nvidia Gefore GTX 1050 or Higher
18% have 4 gb Video Ram, 36% have 2-4 gb and 67% have 2-8 gb
62% have a resolution of 1920 x1080
75% of multimonitor setups have 3840 x1080
48% have between 100 and 499gb free hard drive space
50% have more than 1TB total hard drive space

Pretty sure InXile have access to these details...
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » October 1st, 2019, 9:34 am

has anyone played Division 2 on release with a Logitech headset? the sound was extremele bugged for almost a month until they fixed it, I couldn't talk to my friends with my mic until we were halfway through the game
you'd think a AAA company would actually release a game that works with one of the major brand of headsets, right?
and that's what betas are for anyways, you let people play it, collect system info, fix bugs

and swearing doesn't matter, swearing is preferable over some bad guy who pretends he's learned by being eloquent, raving madman is a lot more fun (and that's an opinion)
I'm also someone who assumes people pull percentages out of their ass

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Saint_Mattis » December 6th, 2019, 8:31 am

This day and age RAM should be utilized, meaning high usage isn't nececary but if it's avalible then allow it to be utilized.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » December 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm

Yes, but program and game creators should always have an eye on backwards compatibility, because the hardware for the userbase changes at a slower rate than the hardware for programmers.
"High usage isn't necessary"? Are there any detection switches (programming) that would turn off graphics use (asset rendering) for the simplification of display? Like turning a high-resolution "oh look, it's Link in the Wild" ground into a low-res paintbucket field, because someone misjudged what real people use as a computer? If somebody's using business IT support services to keep their server-run Gears of war up matches running, don't expect that level from everybody's boxes or pc's. Nothing is uniform. And that's not counting people who will try to have several of these "oh it's fine" programs going at the same time.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » December 11th, 2019, 7:34 pm

Mole204 wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm
Yes, but program and game creators should always have an eye on backwards compatibility, because the hardware for the userbase changes at a slower rate than the hardware for programmers.
If I were a dev, and main point of sale was steam, I would be looking at up to date details and targeting the Median of users.

Hardware doesn't change as slowly as you appear to think it does. And games drive hardware changes.

Your personal hardware position is irrelevant, you appear to be an outlier, not a norm.
Mole204 wrote:
December 10th, 2019, 8:38 pm
"High usage isn't necessary"? Are there any detection switches (programming) that would turn off graphics use (asset rendering) for the simplification of display? Like turning a high-resolution "oh look, it's Link in the Wild" ground into a low-res paintbucket field, because someone misjudged what real people use as a computer? If somebody's using business IT support services to keep their server-run Gears of war up matches running, don't expect that level from everybody's boxes or pc's. Nothing is uniform. And that's not counting people who will try to have several of these "oh it's fine" programs going at the same time.
Again you are assuming you are the norm. You really are not. ANY PC gamer worth their salt knows that the Video Card is the most important part for graphic intensive games. Most would also know that more RAM is almost always a positive.
If anything the areas of "lack of knowledge" actually tend to drive newer equipment, as the sales folk like to push newer (and thus more expensive) product. Hence why so many people buy AUD$2000 systems from Alienware or someone when a custom PC around AUD$1000 will perform just as well, if not better.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm

you appear to be an outlier, not a norm.
I feel like it would be counterproductive to admit to that.

more RAM is almost always a positive.
Yes, it certainly is. As is more hrtz, clockspeed, etc.
The thing is not every pc has the same ram, and not every pc is going to be modified to make it run as smoothly as "we're reassured that it will." The x-box version of WL3 is the closest it'll come to having a level, uniform, _stable_ platform to run on.
People will run it on laptop. And there will probably be people who'll try to tun it on tablet. There will probably be people who will want to run it on their cell phone, but will settle for desktop or laptop. And that's not counting the PS4 and Mac platforms.
Has wl3 been checked out for Xbox Series X?

And while I would like to continue to discuss wl3's program stats, we just don't have the information.
Hey, even though like 99% of the game is likely done by now, I'm still for the replacement of swearing-heavy dialogue. Because I'm all for the writers of the game doing their job and doing it right. Why don't they use their brain and think up something smart instead? Something genius? Something amusing? Swearing is the dumbest of the ways one can try for the 18 rating. I've made previous arguments about world-building and humor. Yes, there's a lot of stuff already off the reel and in the can, but not every son-of-a-Scotchmo is going to know who the card-eating Headcrusher is.
There should be a lot of entrenched strangeness we're just walking into. Colorado is a different area than Arizona, and didn't suffer the same droughts, famine, and mutations as Ar. All different problems. Hopefully we've only seen the big strokes, and there's still lots of the small details that made wl1, and to an extent wl2, fun. Can 3 even equal the strangeness of the depths of Sleeper Base?

Paragraph book. So Brian Fargo can say "You know what's scary? People who clip their toenails at work. But also (!) missing out on a good sale." on Twitter, but no one is able to come up with a paragraph book for WL3? It takes about as much effort as clipping your toenails. Throw in everything and a crab car into a txt or PDF, and call it a paragraph book. You can't tell me there weren't any complaints, jokes, or prophetic visions due to too much/little coffee to jot down. Write a guide to a section of WL3, not even all of Colorado, and jot down things in the blank spaces, like taking notes in pencil.
Updating a geology book. The local Mulefoot's diary. Written out on the blank cover pages of the Threshing Crawler safety manual. On the back of a Secpass security clearance form. Rolled up inside the Coloradioactive National Monument souvenir. There's got to be a connection to the Regan administration and all it's paperwork, somewhere. A Clown Burger menu would not have enough space, and programming up collecting it would be counterproductive, I feel. Best to jam together at least 3 or 4 pages of truth, half truth, and lies, into a document accessible somehow outside the game. There's lots of ways to do that anyway. Any thoughts on that, Woolfe?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » December 14th, 2019, 9:10 am

Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
I'm still for the replacement of swearing-heavy dialogue. Because I'm all for the writers of the game doing their job and doing it right.
How can you know that this isn't already the case... How can you say that swear heavy dialog is not right for their characters, and their story?
Why don't they use their brain and think up something smart instead? Something genius? Something amusing? Swearing is the dumbest of the ways
And they should do this with dialog written for uncouth and uneducated characters —who would actually talk that way?

IMO they should just take (another) tip from what they did with Fallout, implement an optional language filter.

If it has to affect voiced dialog, and if they have concluded all of their recording sessions (making replacement lines impossible)... then just bleep it when the filter is on. How hard could it be to include a list of start & end times for a bleep sound effect? They should be able to search their dialog tree/script for the seven dirty words [ :lol: ] and identify the dialog that needs bleeped.

Alternatively, they could with purposely bad [parody of 80's style] over dubbing, replace the offending words in the lines; with either a decent impression voice—or an [intentionally laughable] attempt at censoring it with a non-professional voice; as though it just was some guy from the office doing what had to be done to get it acceptable.

** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STwEqxtjMCU

I think this would fit, and could even get a laugh. It would already go without saying that playing with the language filter on is not how it is intended to be played, so whatever they do [censorship quality-wise] it should not be taken seriously; so make it a joke.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » December 14th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
People will run it on laptop. And there will probably be people who'll try to tun it on tablet.
Laptop, certainly. Tablet, unlikely unless it gets ported to iOS or Oreo.
There will probably be people who will want to run it on their cell phone
See above. You do know that phones and tablets run different operating systems than computers and consoles, right? It's not just about how much RAM or processing power they have.

And, just how much backwards compatibility are you angling for here? When I graduated high school, the computer I got was a dual Pentium 90 with 8M of RAM that ran Windows 3.1 and OS/2 Warp on a dual boot system. Should Wasteland 3 be able to run on that? Or should the cut-off be this century? This decade? We're already at the point where many (most?) non-Indie new games are cutting out huge swaths of older PCs by being 64-bit.

There comes a point where you have to either upgrade or accept that you won't be playing many new games. I've been there. Back when I used a $300 discount special I bought at Office Max for gaming. It was very limited in what it could do, even with my tolerance for playing games on low graphics settings. But there came a point where I just couldn't play the games I wanted to because my computer had a dual-core chip. Money was tight, so I saved up and found a quad-core that actually would work with my motherboard. Had I not found that chip though, I would have had to either do a more costly upgrade, or... wait to play those games.

Sure, it sucks, but unless you want every game to have janky pixel art, you're going to have to accept that things are eventually going to progress past your decade old refurbished business computer.
but not every son-of-a-Scotchmo is going to know who the card-eating Headcrusher is.
...what?
Can 3 even equal the strangeness of the depths of Sleeper Base?
I never found Sleeper especially strange. Perhaps creepy and certainly sad, but not strange.
So Brian Fargo can say "You know what's scary? People who clip their toenails at work. But also (!) missing out on a good sale." on Twitter, but no one is able to come up with a paragraph book for WL3?
My coworker can order lunch but nobody can build floating cloud cities on Venus, am I right?
It takes about as much effort as clipping your toenails.
I believe that writing a book is slightly more effort than a 150 character Tweet.
Best to jam together at least 3 or 4 pages of truth, half truth, and lies, into a document accessible somehow outside the game.
Again, a lot of effort for minimal reward. Pulling up a PDF and having to ALT-TAB to it is not an enjoyable gaming experience. Hell, probably the best thing about the Gold Box Companion framework (again, thank you Gizmo for pointing me towards it) is the integration of the Journal entries. And that's a game I'm playing in a window. There's no reason for a 50GB game to point me to an external document for fifty words of flavor text. We're not trying to squeeze a game into 1.44MB any more.

If they want to create a lore book or a dumpfile of the game's flavor text, sure, cool. That's like an artbook or soundtrack. It's a nice bonus. But I don't want to be swapping from game to some horrible PDF reader just so I can find out some piece of information the game can just give me.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » December 15th, 2019, 7:23 pm

If you break the "named" quotations, simply select the text you want to quote then click on the " marks at the top of the message box.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
Woolfe wrote:
December 11th, 2019, 7:34 pm
you appear to be an outlier, not a norm.
I feel like it would be counterproductive to admit to that.
You don't need to admit it. YOU ARE AN OUTLIER. This is the point I am making. InXile have access to the same information I posted from Steam. Honestly they probably have access to more. They can SEE that you are an Outlier. Those with the most powerful machines can be ignored as they will play anything, and those with the worst can be dropped off in order to reach the largest group of people possible without restricting themselves technically.
If you are part of the outlier group that has been dropped off, your choice will probably be play a very slow version, or upgrade.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
Woolfe wrote:
December 11th, 2019, 7:34 pm
more RAM is almost always a positive.
Yes, it certainly is. As is more hrtz, clockspeed, etc.
Let me rephrase that, Ram is usually the easiest and cheapest way to get an upgrade.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
The thing is not every pc has the same ram, and not every pc is going to be modified to make it run as smoothly as "we're reassured that it will." The x-box version of WL3 is the closest it'll come to having a level, uniform, _stable_ platform to run on.
Why do you think I posted the Steam hardware charts? They give a solid representation of what is out there. If the majority of users have 16 gb of Ram, then they should target a minimum of 16 gb Ram, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work on 8 gb, but it will be a slower experience.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
People will run it on laptop. And there will probably be people who'll try to tun it on tablet. There will probably be people who will want to run it on their cell phone, but will settle for desktop or laptop. And that's not counting the PS4 and Mac platforms.
Has wl3 been checked out for Xbox Series X?
So what? Some laptops are almost as powerful as desktops, so I don't know why you are banging on about that. And Tablets... well do you mean windows or IOS/Android tablets. Windows tablets are essentially just laptops with a touch interface.
Cell phone/PS4/MAC/Xbox! Why do you even care about that? That is InXile's decision to make, they will build a system that fits for them, both the target market (which they will have better info on than we ever likely would) and the power that they build too. Pretty sure they know what they are doing there, they have not it a few times already.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
And while I would like to continue to discuss wl3's program stats, we just don't have the information.
You are the one who brought it up by trying to make grand statements about areas.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
Hey, even though like 99% of the game is likely done by now, I'm still for the replacement of swearing-heavy dialogue. Because I'm all for the writers of the game doing their job and doing it right. Why don't they use their brain and think up something smart instead? Something genius? Something amusing? Swearing is the dumbest of the ways one can try for the 18 rating. I've made previous arguments about world-building and humor. Yes, there's a lot of stuff already off the reel and in the can, but not every son-of-a-Scotchmo is going to know who the card-eating Headcrusher is.
Your opinion is wrong, build a bridge and get over it...
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
Paragraph book. So Brian Fargo can say "You know what's scary? People who clip their toenails at work. But also (!) missing out on a good sale." on Twitter, but no one is able to come up with a paragraph book for WL3? It takes about as much effort as clipping your toenails. Throw in everything and a crab car into a txt or PDF, and call it a paragraph book. You can't tell me there weren't any complaints, jokes, or prophetic visions due to too much/little coffee to jot down. Write a guide to a section of WL3, not even all of Colorado, and jot down things in the blank spaces, like taking notes in pencil.
Updating a geology book. The local Mulefoot's diary. Written out on the blank cover pages of the Threshing Crawler safety manual. On the back of a Secpass security clearance form. Rolled up inside the Coloradioactive National Monument souvenir. There's got to be a connection to the Regan administration and all it's paperwork, somewhere. A Clown Burger menu would not have enough space, and programming up collecting it would be counterproductive, I feel. Best to jam together at least 3 or 4 pages of truth, half truth, and lies, into a document accessible somehow outside the game.
Or maybe they couldn't be bother because they think a paragraph book is
A) not needed as everything fits on the PC, and physical anti-theft devices are no longer required
B) not as fun as you seem to think/remember
C) not preferred by the market which will be purchasing this.
Mole204 wrote:
December 13th, 2019, 10:31 pm
There's lots of ways to do that anyway. Any thoughts on that, Woolfe?
They could do lots of these things if they wanted, but it would be taking resources from stuff they actually want to work on, and doing physical goods is only fun for a small portion of the audience.

Edit:- typos.


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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » December 16th, 2019, 10:24 pm

How can you say that swear heavy dialog is not right for their characters, and their story?
(wl3 goon swearing) is a poorly written scene in a poorly written game. Glados in Portal is much better. Why? Intelligence. Wl3 relies on three things- 1-guns, 2-love for 80s post-apoc. stuff, and 3- entertaining stuff. Bad dialogue isn't doing any favors. Talking isn't needed in the first 2, and when it's needed in cutscenes and choices (Fishface and Victory Pat), it falls flat. Anyone could do better than this. Throw in some snark, not some profanity.
I believe that writing a book is slightly more effort than a 150 character Tweet.
It it, but a wl3 version of the wl1 paragraph book is nowhere near that hard. Or even the size of one chapter. But put enough "more information about scene #83 here" blurbs together, throw in some random nonsense and half-truths, add up to 5 or 10 pages and that's that. Let it be bundled with the game. Let it be accessible from some menu layer. Let it be downloaded from the inexile site. People might be reading it on their phones while playing wl3 on their pcs or xboxes. Let youtube's gamegeek culture clickbeggers read it aloud from tall buildings in the rain.

To me at least, wl2 had a lot of "all is forgiven, just make the game." So it gets an easy pass despite it's flaws. It's got some really good parts, I must admit. Example, Didn't think there'd be singing.
But with wl3 it will have to work a little harder. presumable just like the customer base views new games. "Just wow me. Because if you've got talent that should be easy."
But wl2 and now 3 are a little too Fallout-y for my tastes. It shouldn't be a dumping ground for Fallout ideas, it should be a dumping ground for Wasteland ideas.
Where's the _entertainment_? Because (waves at Fishface and Victory Pat.) isn't it.
The swearing keeps things very limited, and doesn't make for amusing dialogue.
It's a case of a better approach creating a better product, worse creating worse.
but it would be taking resources from stuff they actually want to work on
That's already been discussed, and unless they want to make it paper, it clearly doesn't. And as for the amount of time, it would take what, one day? Two if someone wanted to sleep on it? Given the speed wl3 has been going at the amount of resource diversion may as well be in the negative numbers.

[/quote] You do know that phones and tablets run different operating systems than computers and consoles, right?[/quote]
wl3 is listed available for Mac, Windows, Xbox, Ps4. What was that about different operating systems? Because I think that doesn't matter at this point.
And, just how much backwards compatibility are you angling for here?
5 years as a preferable estimate, though a 10 years range would be more realistic. There's a tech gap that's already been jumped by now within that bracket. It's all the same now, just a graphics problem. There's only so much "pretty" that is useful in a game anyway. Long live the age of the terabyte, but why not just have a function that dials the CPU hogging graphics down properly? PC's are not a one-program platform anymore. All that space they think is available isn't always there.
janky pixel art
Tell it to Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft. (I don't play them) This ain't VR quality to begin with. I'm not trying to run wl2 on the pc that came with a cold war bunker, even if I still sound like it to someone who wants to ignore an argument for rational game construction limitations.
It's a matter of not making the map so high detailed, so go and make the game wider in scope.
(Also the wl2 arena city kept crashing for me on entry. I for one can hope I've jumped that gap. I blame faulty ram chips that don't match the stickers.)

" But I don't want to be swapping from game to some horrible PDF reader just so I can find out some piece of information the game can just give me."
Agree to agree. Agree to disagree about the entertainment value of the Solvig code. I just think we could have gotten more out of wl2. We got little pages of things in the game, but it's just not the same as a paragraph book.

Getting snow in wl3 is not a good trade for the extra rooms and encounters that should have been created instead. inexile spending time to make the program be less crashy is good. Spending time to make things more pretty might not be good. Spending time on something unproductive like snow or how lighting works for Pistol #1-10 muzzle flash #4 on robot #2 isn't good if we could have gotten the Killdozer instead. (The Killdozer Rampage is native to the Colorado state.)
-Quotes.
I just write things out in txt and then copypaste it when it's done. Quotes are for single message responses and as a structure tends to break down with multi-point multiple messages. So yes, things could have been more disorganized and you shouldn't complain because everything can get worse. So much worse.

-Swearing
Against it because of quality based reasons. You don't have to make characters polite, you just have to make the game be profanity-less. And let something on-second-thought better fill the gaps.

-Paragraph book. Some who are against it here are mostly being mistaken about it needing to be in paper print. It could be openable by a link in the game staff list or the main game menu before the game loads, or something. Lots of ways for it to be done. It's a bonus material matter.
The paragraph book for Wl1, in current terms, is 550 kb pdf, 162 blurbs, 28 pages.


(Additional edits by Administrator - message sent to poster Wolfe)
Oh great and mighty Administrator, I did (in the spirit of conversation) ask what Wolfe's thoughts were. Go easy on him?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gizmo » December 17th, 2019, 1:05 am

Mole204 wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 10:24 pm
How can you say that swear heavy dialog is not right for their characters, and their story?
(wl3 goon swearing) is a poorly written scene in a poorly written game. Glados in Portal is much better. Why? Intelligence. Wl3 relies on three things- 1-guns, 2-love for 80s post-apoc. stuff, and 3- entertaining stuff. Bad dialogue isn't doing any favors. Talking isn't needed in the first 2, and when it's needed in cutscenes and choices (Fishface and Victory Pat), it falls flat. Anyone could do better than this. Throw in some snark, not some profanity.
That doesn't answer the question, it merely gives your opinion—which I don't necessarily disagree with... But this doesn't say how you —know— that swear heavy dialog is not right for their characters, and their story. :?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » December 17th, 2019, 2:43 pm

Mole204 wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 10:24 pm
It it, but a wl3 version of the wl1 paragraph book is nowhere near that hard. Or even the size of one chapter. But put enough "more information about scene #83 here" blurbs together
But why? Wasteland had stuff like that put into an external book for two reasons: keeping the size of the game small enough to actually fit on the media they had available, and to serve as a kind of copy protection. Neither of those are issues any more.
throw in some random nonsense and half-truths, add up to 5 or 10 pages and that's that.
That's even worse than a real paragraph book! This is cargo cultism at its finest! Seriously? 5 pages? Why bother at that point?
But wl2 and now 3 are a little too Fallout-y for my tastes.
Adding a five page Paragraphs.pdf file won't address that in the slightest.
but it would be taking resources from stuff they actually want to work on
That's already been discussed, and unless they want to make it paper, it clearly doesn't.
Oh. So it'll magically spring into existence without anyone doing anything. Well. Problem solved, then.
You do know that phones and tablets run different operating systems than computers and consoles, right?
wl3 is listed available for Mac, Windows, Xbox, Ps4. What was that about different operating systems?
I'm looking and looking, but I'm not seeing iOS or Android on that list.
5 years as a preferable estimate, though a 10 years range would be more realistic.
Ten years. Okay. So, a 2009 computer. 4G of DDR2 RAM, GTX 300 series, and a Core i7. So a computer from 2009 would have a pretty tough time running WL3, probably more from the 64 bit requirement than anything. However, a 5 year old computer (assuming it's 64 bit) shouldn't have any difficulty at all.

Assuming it's not a glorified refurbished word processor.
Long live the age of the terabyte, but why not just have a function that dials the CPU hogging graphics down properly? PC's are not a one-program platform anymore. All that space they think is available isn't always there.
What does this word salad even mean? Are you talking about graphics options in game? Because those, you know, actually work. And PCs have never been "one-program platform[s]". Unless you're talking about multitasking. In which case, yes, you're right. They've only had that for nearly 25 years now.
I'm not trying to run wl2 on the pc that came with a cold war bunker, even if I still sound like it to someone who wants to ignore an argument for rational game construction limitations.
No, you're trying to run it on a computer designed for running Excel spreadsheets.
I blame faulty ram chips that don't match the stickers.
Big DDR strikes again!
Quotes are for single message responses and as a structure tends to break down with multi-point multiple messages.
Disagree.
-Paragraph book. Some who are against it here are mostly being mistaken about it needing to be in paper print.
Except that everyone arguing against it is arguing against it as a PDF, too...
The paragraph book for Wl1, in current terms, is 550 kb pdf, 162 blurbs, 28 pages.
So... 2.8 to 5.6 times longer than your proposal.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » December 18th, 2019, 4:14 am

Mole204 wrote:
December 16th, 2019, 10:24 pm
And, just how much backwards compatibility are you angling for here?
5 years as a preferable estimate, though a 10 years range would be more realistic. There's a tech gap that's already been jumped by now within that bracket. It's all the same now, just a graphics problem. There's only so much "pretty" that is useful in a game anyway. Long live the age of the terabyte, but why not just have a function that dials the CPU hogging graphics down properly? PC's are not a one-program platform anymore. All that space they think is available isn't always there.
You don't know what you are talking about. A 5 year old gaming machine would probably be able to play it. A 5 year old machine for browsing the internet and browser gaming. No way is that going to handle it.

Graphics can be dialed back. Most games comes with a plethora of settings to reduce Graphics load. But none of that will help if you pc is not a gaming machine, or is so old that it can't handle it.

As I said, you are the edge case, not the norm.

janky pixel art
Tell it to Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft. (I don't play them)
I don't play Dwarf fortress because it is Ascii art. That said they are working on a Steam release that has better art. I will be buying that.
I do play Minecraft and it has quite good graphics considering. It doesn't need a lot of power because it uses very large blocks.... Its kind of the games thing. But it can actually be quite taxing on a machine.
This ain't VR quality to begin with.
My current Machine would run VR, maybe not brilliantly, but it would do it, and it has parts in it that are 2-3 years old.
I'm not trying to run wl2 on the pc that came with a cold war bunker, even if I still sound like it to someone who wants to ignore an argument for rational game construction limitations.
They have RATIONAL game construction limitations.
As I defined earlier. Look at the Steam Hardware Survey, it is the probably the best poll of what people are actually using out there, and it is not a 5-10 year old machine in the vast majority of cases.
It's a matter of not making the map so high detailed, so go and make the game wider in scope.
(Also the wl2 arena city kept crashing for me on entry. I for one can hope I've jumped that gap. I blame faulty ram chips that don't match the stickers.)
So your PC can't even run WL2, and you expect them to build WL3 to support it? The mind boggles...
-Quotes.
I just write things out in txt and then copypaste it when it's done. Quotes are for single message responses and as a structure tends to break down with multi-point multiple messages. So yes, things could have been more disorganized and you shouldn't complain because everything can get worse. So much worse.
Literally all you have to do is highlight the section and hit the " button. It is not hard.
Or if you want to do it in txt (I assume you mean notepad?) then learn the coding and apply it in the text document, then when you "copypaste" you hit "preview" to make sure it is correct.
-Swearing
Against it because of quality based reasons. You don't have to make characters polite, you just have to make the game be profanity-less. And let something on-second-thought better fill the gaps.
That is simply your opinion, and it is demonstrably wrong.
(Additional edits by Administrator - message sent to poster Wolfe)
Oh great and mighty Administrator, I did (in the spirit of conversation) ask what Wolfe's thoughts were. Go easy on him?
I was a touch too pointed in some of my responses. You have had worse flung at you over the years, but I don't disagree with the moderation.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » December 19th, 2019, 8:43 pm

It it, but a wl3 version of the wl1 paragraph book is nowhere near that hard. Or even the size of one chapter. But put enough "more information about scene #83 here" blurbs together
But why?

Assume that might be easier? A few lies about the nancies, a few tall tales about the Morningstar, some ideas about how hard it was to make the robot Regan statue. It's meant to be "in addition to" what's going on in wl3.
Seriously? 5 pages? Why bother at that point?
I just made a guess about the page amount, so I was wrong. What's the difference between 5 of those pages from wl2, the ones in tiny text about Samson, vs 5 pages of text in a word processor?
What does this word salad even mean?
Why don't you try reading the post, you seem deficient in that.
Are you talking about graphics options in game?
They won't stop making more computers, but the ones guesstumated at being used -by the public- around the launch date aught to run a program. Including the xbox. Don't plan -solely- for the computer setup used by the developers thinking that the people will catch up.
Big DDR strikes again!
More like scammers.
-Paragraph book.
Except that everyone arguing against it is arguing against it as a PDF, too...
We haven't gotten the wl2 novel either, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised reading isn't the hobby of the 2 people against it.

[are not a one-program platform anymore. All that space they think is available isn't always there.[/quote]
But none of that will help if you pc is not a gaming machine, or is so old that it can't handle it.
As I said, the ram, cpu # and graphics abilities -should- work. IF the menu options are there. And anything older than 10 years would be out of range.
I do play Minecraft and it has quite good graphics considering. It doesn't need a lot of power because it uses very large blocks.... Its kind of the games thing. But it can actually be quite taxing on a machine.
Which makes no sense at all for a game that intentionally tries to look pixelated.
Besides,wl2 wasn't retro, even though they said so in the ads. I was expecting something closer to Death Road to Canada.

[/quote]Literally all you have to do is highlight the section and hit the " button. [/quote]
But I can only respond to one post at a time that way. After that, windows start piling up. Things can get lost and I find txt to be the best compromise.
-Swearing. Against it because of quality based reasons.
That is simply your opinion
My opinion is that someone didn't do his job. At all. wl2 had some parts that aren't very good storywise, but the swearing stands out in a bad way, and is the part that would negatively impact sales and public perception. AND is just stupid as well. We should want better story quality, not less. You however have never said anything to defend that carelessness and likely never will.

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