Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

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Grohal
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Grohal » July 19th, 2019, 12:41 am

Well, I have written it before and I still stand on that opinion: in the postapocalypse most people are degenerates, most of all morally, so most people should have dirty, provocative language.
You can of course sprinkle one or two cultured people for every 100 hundred not so gentle ones. But even Snake Vargas had some pretty harsh sayings. And it felt RIGHT. I don't want an postapocalyptic Disneyland.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 19th, 2019, 5:38 am

Grohal wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 12:41 am
Well, I have written it before and I still stand on that opinion: in the postapocalypse most people are degenerates, most of all morally, so most people should have dirty, provocative language.
You can of course sprinkle one or two cultured people for every 100 hundred not so gentle ones. But even Snake Vargas had some pretty harsh sayings. And it felt RIGHT. I don't want an postapocalyptic Disneyland.
Agreed... it is appropriate for people to swear. Maybe not all the times, maybe not in front of their mother... But it does happen
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 19th, 2019, 5:49 am

Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm
Woolfe wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 2:49 am
A character can be crude, a character can be polite. It is simply another method to tell an aspect of a story.
To simply rule it out because "ooh bad words" is just pointless, as pointless as purposefully putting them in where they aren't appropriate.
Good points, Woolfe. To rule in swearing just because they want a higher age rating doesn't mean they're accomplishing anything memorable either. Lazy writing means lazy results. They must create something solid and smart and entertaining. If they're swearing to bluster to try to get a few drunks who wandered away from Fortnite then they're going in the wrong direction.
No one says this except you. No one believes they are adding it just to get a higher age rating except you.
Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm
I played wl1 when I was a teen because I enjoyed it, not because there were naughty words. If the wl3 team can't deliver what they promise then they should reexamine what they've already done, remove the idiotic stuff and put in some snappier stuff. Just because it's post-apoc. doesn't mean they're all idiots. Even in wl1 there were libraries and clean living.
*Facepalm* You get that the lack of swearing in 1 was because computer games were considered "for kids" back then. Just like creating paragraph books was a way of reducing the size of games (and of creating handy copy protection). These things were simply signs of the times.

Times have changed.
Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm
Swearing adds nothing to the game. It wastes chances to be something good. Idiots foul things up and then claim it's on topic "because he did it!" (The character Bulldog, for example.) or because they know some idiot in real life who does the same.
You are wrong. Swearing can be well done, just like any story/character element, and it can be poorly done. Simply because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.
Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm
I approach the Wasteland series as someone who wants to fix the world, not as someone who wants to hang out with cursing biker-fodder for 40 hours.
That Gillsing and Wolfe says the swearing goes in one ear and out the other is a great point. It's just not memorable, or interesting. That it doesn't stick. That it isn't worthwhile. That the programmers have to do better than that.
"The most memorable stories are about things we do not have. Happy living. Safety. Paradise."
Well I can quote quite a number of memorable movies that use swearing to excellent effect. So you are incorrect.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Tim McBride » July 19th, 2019, 6:18 am

Running around post apocalyptic Colorado, fighting mutants animals and general human scum. Make life or death decision that effect others, maybe burn a village or two.
But swearing! That's just too much!

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by phimseto » July 19th, 2019, 12:56 pm

This entire argument reminds me of why I despise the ESRB and ratings systems in general.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 21st, 2019, 5:00 am

phimseto wrote:
July 19th, 2019, 12:56 pm
This entire argument reminds me of why I despise the ESRB and ratings systems in general.
Indeed!!!
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Stuurminator » July 21st, 2019, 10:45 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 18th, 2019, 9:24 pm
You miss the point that if you cannot say an insult without swearing, why do you assume that swearing will fix that lack? Where's the wit? Where's the genius?
I think your mistake is expecting wit and genius from every two-bit nitwit dipshit in the wastelands. Profanity isn't solely the providence of the unintelligent, but it's a convenient fallback for those people. Insulting someone without profanity, particularly in a high-stress situation, requires a cool head and creativity. Fish Lips doesn't strike me as a particularly creative person.

My memory isn't great, but to my best recollection, the most gratuitously foul-mouthed characters in Wasteland 2 were typically the least intelligent, or at least, the ones least defined by their intelligence. I don't remember much swearing coming from Matthias, Tinker, or van Overbake, for example, while characters such as Pitbull do swear up a storm and are dumb as rocks. Again, I'm probably forgetting a lot, but I seem to remember profanity roughly serving as a barometer of either dull-wittedness or a lack of control under pressure.

Profanity, like all language, is a tool in the writer's arsenal. Even its boorish lack of creativity can, itself, serve a creative purpose.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 pm

Stuurminator wrote:
July 21st, 2019, 10:45 pm
My memory isn't great, but to my best recollection, the most gratuitously foul-mouthed characters in Wasteland 2 were typically the least intelligent, or at least, the ones least defined by their intelligence.
Katy was pretty foulmouthed too. But, I believe she was an administrator and not a scientist, so make of that what you will. She was also much more profane in the beta.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 23rd, 2019, 7:39 am

dude, Kathy Lawson was the science team leader
that's a step up from even a regular scientist

it's not even that hard to google that very simple fact either

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 23rd, 2019, 12:25 pm

Drool wrote:
July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 pm
But, I believe she was an administrator and not a scientist
Drool wrote:
July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 pm
But, I believe she was an administrator
Drool wrote:
July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 pm
But, I believe
Drool wrote:
July 22nd, 2019, 2:50 pm
I believe
In other words, I wasn't sure.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm

I was sure that she was the one who created or at least finished creating the cure for the infectuous disease. So that means that she must have some intellectual capability of note. And I also tend to fact-check stuff like that before posting, and the "science team leader" is in the Fandom wiki, but not in the official Gamepedia wiki.

Though my own Ranger team leader has Intelligence 1, because Charisma is what's really important for a leader. So maybe that's what's really important for a science team leader as well? Not sure if Kathy Lawson has Charisma though. Many players seemed to hate her.

What's really, really important though, is that I have no recollection of her being foul-mouthed. So if she was, then that wasn't particularly important. My main beef with her was that she seemed to expect my Rangers to have been there 'yesterday'. And that did not speak highly of her intelligence. But perhaps she had requested before that an entire team of Desert Rangers be permanently stationed at Ag Center? If that is so, then I could see why she'd be upset that it takes time to march through the desert.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 23rd, 2019, 3:39 pm

Gillsing wrote:
July 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm
What's really, really important though, is that I have no recollection of her being foul-mouthed.
She wasn't in the release version. In the beta version, her tirades were stuffed to the brim with profanity. Which, honestly, was pretty understandable, considering her situation.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » July 23rd, 2019, 9:48 pm

OK, there's a lot to cover so bear with me.
"Profanity, like all language, is a tool in the writer's arsenal. Even its boorish lack of creativity can, itself, serve a creative purpose."
And yet there are more entertaining portrayals of cavemen than that. A case of a writer not wanting to think up anything better does not validate him not wanting to think up anything better.
"This entire argument reminds me of why I despise the ESRB and ratings systems in general."
I as well. Without the ham-handed attempts to work around it, there'd be less swearing for people to copy-cat.
I think it's done more harm then good. Entire generations have grown up hearing and copying the swearing in movies. They could have done better. There is no movie-goer anywhere who attended any R rated movie for the swearing. Nudity and sex scenes yes, but not the swearing. At least that's making use of a visual medium! Though if they can't fill the movie's run-time any other way, they should have worked around that in pre-planning.
"Running around post apocalyptic Colorado, fighting mutants animals and general human scum. Make life or death decision that effect others, maybe burn a village or two.
But swearing! That's just too much!"
Fun, challenge, enjoyment, sounds like a pleasant weekend. And then TMI, gross, and/or that's just uncalled for.
"Well I can quote quite a number of memorable movies that use swearing to excellent effect. So you are incorrect."
True: a number of memorable movies that use swearing
False: to excellent effect.

It's a sequel. That's one of the reasons to drop the profanity. The game has to be perfect and knock your socks off enough that it can be milked for years.
The Wl series is a bit of a shoot 'em up, but you can get away with that. If some kid playing on the xbox starts up a game where everyone's swearing about everything, then a parent will be much quicker to shut it down. You've got marketing, social acceptability, and just plain human behavior to navigate. Of _course_ you're better off without swearing- it should have been better written to _start_ with!
"Wl1 didn't have swearing because reasons"
Removing swearing forces the people making something to stop and pay attention to what they are doing. Some will figure a clever way to do it better, some will back up and try again, and the losers will just add swearing because they aren't bright enough to do their jobs. Don't you deserve better? Wl1 wasn't some disneyesque happyland either. Sex, shoot-outs, and graphic descriptions about exploding bodies. And that was all normal.
So why do you think that swearing will make anything better? What's your next step up? Are you going to open a sex chat line? Are you going to film a porno?
No. We are going to battle our way across a mountain and break into an supernuke storage vault. For fun. You should be thinking less about allowing defective work, and more about fixing that work. The strength of these games is in the gameplay- the strategy and spectacle. Then the text and and the speech. While no-one here is a programmer working on this game this is still true: If you can't make it perfect, then make it acceptable. If you can't do that, then you have failed.

"head scientist of AgCenter gets impaled multiple times by the same tree"
"Which, honestly, was pretty understandable, considering her situation."
True, though you'd think she'd save some breath to tell you where the hedge clippers are.
Though she might want you to cut something off _before_ starting on her.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Woolfe » July 24th, 2019, 3:11 am

Yawn, same tired subjective arguments ignoring what others say.
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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Drool » July 24th, 2019, 2:32 pm

Mole204 wrote:
July 23rd, 2019, 9:48 pm
True: a number of memorable movies that use swearing
False: to excellent effect.
Hmm...
INT. CHANNEL

Newt scurries like a rabbit as the looming figure of the
Alien appears above, seen through the bars. A section of
grille is ripped away behind her. She scrambles
desperately. Another section is ripped away right at her
heels. Light pouring in. The next will be right above
her.

INT. CARGO LOCK

The Queen spins at the sound of door motors behind her.
The parting doors REVEAL an inhuman silhouette standing
there.

Ripley steps out, WEARING TWO TONS OF HARDENED STEEL.
THE POWER LOADER. Like medieval armor with the power of
a bulldozer. She takes a step...the massive foot
CRASH-CLANGS to the deck. She takes another, advancing.

Ripley's expression is one you hope you'll never see...
Hell hath no fury like that of a mother protecting her
child and that primal, murderous rage surges through her
now, banishing all fear.

RIPLEY

Get away from her, you big meanie!
Oh yes. So much better.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 26th, 2019, 3:13 am

Gillsing wrote:
July 23rd, 2019, 1:47 pm
Though my own Ranger team leader has Intelligence 1, because Charisma is what's really important for a leader.
all my rangers have 1 charisma, because skills are where it's at, skills and not dying
so strength to take hits (you can't survive a ranger squad only on highest difficulty playthrough without 8 str), intelligence to increase your skills ASAP, and whatever's left in the one that does speed and movement so I'm not stuck in one place trying to hit enemies behind cover

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 26th, 2019, 4:06 am

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 3:13 am
(you can't survive a ranger squad only on highest difficulty playthrough without 8 str)
I don't believe this. People have finished Supreme Jerk with solo Rangers, so I'm pretty sure there's no Strength 8 requirement. But sadly I will not have the future computer access to prove this wrong in a Supreme Jerk replay of the game. My current Rangers hardly take any damage as is on Ranger difficulty, so double damage instead of just +50% damage doesn't seem so scary.

But they just arrived at Seal beach, so maybe it's inside that place that the pain will begin? The exterior/top side area was quite easy. Particularly when using a single RPG-7 against the ambushers. First one I've used in the game, aside from earlier uses that I never saved because I learned how to manage without. But my Rangers have a ridiculous stack of RPG-7s that I never needed to use, so now is the time to do make a dent in that stockpile. Let's see which wins: Synths or rocket-propelled grenades.

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 30th, 2019, 10:57 am

well for me there was, considering they'd get knocked out in two attacks, and when you do a battle where 4 rangerss have to take on a dozen second to last tier enemies who have literally surrounded you, while you haven't even reached Hollywood, you're gonna have a hard time
I had hard times with nuns, I had to set up so I'd attack at the furthest range so I they'd waste two turns getting to me and I've have a chance
but you go be you, man

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Gillsing » July 30th, 2019, 12:11 pm

Well, I had a Thick-Skinned Ranger in heavy armor who took no damage from the CotC cutter who came in from the left. And Rose hacked the synth, turning their strongest combatant against them. I think I used either an RPG-7 or a Sabot Rocket plus something else against the two or three evolved coming up from behind, and the others were mostly pulse gunners without a line of sight to my heavy armor Ranger. That left the basher and the heavy gunner coming down from far behind the house, and they were not fast enough to matter.

My only issue was that Jaime the Robot would charge up ahead and get killed by one of those two, far away from my Rangers. But I cleverly solved that by having Ralphy stick to shooting the robot with The Lariat, keeping the robot in place for the entire battle. I suppose it's possible that Ralphy also shot the second cutter with The Lariat as well, shutting down that Proton Axe for long enough for someone else to kill its wielder.

Nuns and pistol-packing priests were all a joke to my Thick-Skinned Ranger. 0% damage every time. Nuns with Penetration 3 uzis would be a joke to any Ranger with power armor. Grenades from lobbers could penetrate any armor, but those were easily handled. Did I tell you my heavy armor ranger is my Field Medic, and can thus self-heal all damage from puny explosives? "Stand back, other Rangers, this is a job for me!" Arizona was ruled by my Twitchy killer who ran circles around the enemies, but most of Los Angeles was handled by skin too thick to feel the pain.

I guess the final battle could be troublesome though, seeing as there are synths with Penetration 10 weapons that still do 20% damage when my heavy armor Ranger has activated Self Defense against a cutter, and 40% damage when my heavy armor Ranger is trying to close the distance without any adjacent enemies. And two of my rangers actually got hit and would surely have gone down if it had been +100% damage instead of only +50%.

Turned out that my Twitchy killer could run up behind the sharpshooters and gunslingers though, so speed was of the essence. Intelligence? Not so much. Dump stat for that one. Strength? Well, 6 was required for the Proton Axe, but less would have sufficed, because the Makeshift Sword was the real best-in-show, with its 50% faster (and diagonal) attacks, and the 15% chance to stun that came with all three Brute Force perks. That's how scorpitrons were handled: They'd show up, get stunned, and not do anything else before they'd explode. Quite a poor showing compared to the first game. Though the first scorpitron would have killed Jaime the Robot if it had been on Supreme Jerk. Did 85 points of damage on Ranger difficulty. I thought my robots would be safe all the way back at the vendors, but that was incorrect. For a replay I guess I'd place them further away still. The first one also followed that attack up with some minions, but they did not last very long.

That's Director's Cut for you. Quirks and perks making things much easier. Maybe your experience was from the release version, where Rangers had to fight fair?

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Re: Mole204's Wasteland 3 Construction Checklist

Post by Mole204 » September 20th, 2019, 7:36 pm

So the alpha is out and with it the video. I must say I'm almost revealed at the game's lack of Fallout-level bugs. But it's still Unity game engine, so... I just haven't gotten to load it yet.
The combat looks the same as WL2, so I guess there's no need to make any changes there. A save function would be useful. For those of us who may often have to guess wrong how long it will take and have to leave Now. I hope they manage to keep the promise made for wl2, the one about the random encounter combat maps don't have to be as large and hard to find the way out of. Makes me miss the purity of the wl1 combat system. Then never, never even once, never even had the opportunity to have to use, the whole combat level anyway. No hordes of goons. No horde of massive metal monsters. It was a waste of space, and waste of time. Was it a setting problem? No, it was just there for the sake of being there. Make them smaller by half.
Is there any way to turn off the blowing snow animation and wind noise?
I think there were background noise toggles in the menu, but I've not had the chance to try to turn off the snow/wind specifically.

This is a small slice of the game, and I can hope it gets better. I'd rather have the more sophisticated speech instead of the swearing-heavy unentertaining speech of raving crackheads. As wl3 is only in alpha release, I can't say there are many gone-full-crackheads in the game beyond Victory Patriarch, though Fishface also doesn't do the game any favors.
They have to write better, and should have. At least some of the Breather Gang characters are interesting with their worship of whatever it is they're on. That's better world-building then Victory Pat ever is. Yeah, at least some humor is tried for, so it's not all bad. But no, Vic needs a bit of dialogue work.
If the writers wanted to make a character be offensive for the intent that he be a total monster, then they've got it backwards. They shouldn't be wasting time with the swearing, and instead be name-dropping various thing's VP's done.
I hope there isn't more like this. That's two out of three. Fishface, Scotchmo, Victory. Two of those being this poorly written profanity laden encounters.
I was hoping for something more original than this. Something more entertaining wouldn't be hard. Now, Federico's speech is what I'm hoping for.
Small hint; those of the 'approve of crackheads' crowd aren't good video game customers. Actual crackheads, much less so.
But at least the combat is solid, so I hope there's a LOT of it. I wonder what the program's safe maximum of enemy goons are? Has anyone heard of any of the devs trying for that?
-
Shovel- found. Mirror- not yet. Cryotube- not yet. Or did I just miss those two?

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