Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Captain_Bonecold
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 3rd, 2017, 1:05 am

Woolfe wrote:
November 1st, 2017, 8:36 pm
Godfather101 wrote:
November 1st, 2017, 12:55 am
Grohal wrote:
October 31st, 2017, 3:31 pm
*snip*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND again, everything Mister Grohal said (and of course Mister "quote" Woolfe too ^^). :D
He is right in everything he states here.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
October 31st, 2017, 6:15 pm
<Snip>

Party: Increase party to 6 because max lv 50.<Snip>
No. We lost enough of WL1, we don't need to lose more. 4 + 3 is a good mix. You can build pretty solid characters, That either specialise or are versatile, whilst leaving plenty of space to find more specialised NPCs.
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
October 31st, 2017, 6:15 pm
Animal: Dogs are use in war. They are stealthy. Plus they sniff out Enemies.
That's a good idea. You could probably apply those sort of "bonuses" to any number of animals. And it would be nice for them to be a little less squishy. Heck even if they just ran away out of danger at times would be nice.... *Stupid Goat*
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
October 31st, 2017, 6:15 pm
Ammo: Make the wieght for all ammo 0 or make it .001.
No. That makes no sense at all. Why make ammo weightless. You have enough characters that carrying enough ammo shouldn't be that hard, and as far as I have seen no one has ever had a problem with running out of ammo in most games.

How is weight and running out of ammo the same thing? It is not the same thing. With medical suppies and ammo I'm sitting at 40 pounds. On 1 ranger.

A party of 6 rangers allows for more builds. Never have two of the same gun type. Shotgun,Energy weapon,Sniper and assult are the guns my party has. NPC's are pre determine. Most NPC's are low level. Meaning hours of work to lv them up. Most NPC's suck.

That why I want player to have 1 pet at a time. Also I want the pet to have lv ups. So a pet can become useful in wasteland 3.

Gary and Ertan have base rogue chance of 70% in wasteland 2. That means without leadership they have a huge chance of dying. Max Leadership only cuts that down to 20%.

Captain_Bonecold
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 3rd, 2017, 1:18 am

Drool wrote:
November 2nd, 2017, 3:36 pm
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
October 31st, 2017, 6:15 pm
Would love a doctor at lv 1. While not losing a a energy gun user.
Why can't you? I did.
Weapon skills should always be 10. Lock picking and safecracking has to be 10. Fields medic and surgeon has level items base on there skill level.
Are you trying to improve the game, or do you just need a link to the character editor?
A bigger party doesn't make your characters a god in wasteland games. I want to improve the game. The CE is wrong. And doesn't have quirts.

demeisen
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by demeisen » November 3rd, 2017, 5:44 pm

Grohal wrote:
October 25th, 2017, 5:44 am
Against this. Ammo should be so scarce that the weight of it should be no problem. Else leave some of it in the base.
Completely, wholeheartedly agreed with quote above.

I loved WL2 a lot and consider it one of the better RPGs of recent years, but my primary objection was that resources were far too plentiful for the game to have a post-apoc survival feel. (The world design worked well though - soundscapes and the feel of the various areas). It's post-apoc! The game world should be mercilessly stingy with ammo, healing, etc, rather than the WL2 approach of giving you so much you can't carry it all.

And yes, ammo should absolutely have weight.

Dork Mage
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Dork Mage » November 3rd, 2017, 6:45 pm

One of the points of the kickstarter WL2 was to have a game where there are consequences for one's choices.

You want to start with a medic/surgeon - give some other skill up. You want rapid SP growth - it will cost something, actually A LOT of something. 8 character points to start with. Are you sure you want that SP growth? Oh look, I just used 8 points and the next level is 10... so tempting.

It is done for a reason, just as perception or whatever... there is a penalty you have to live with.

Captain_Bonecold
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 4th, 2017, 12:03 am

demeisen wrote:
November 3rd, 2017, 5:44 pm
Grohal wrote:
October 25th, 2017, 5:44 am
Against this. Ammo should be so scarce that the weight of it should be no problem. Else leave some of it in the base.
Completely, wholeheartedly agreed with quote above.

I loved WL2 a lot and consider it one of the better RPGs of recent years, but my primary objection was that resources were far too plentiful for the game to have a post-apoc survival feel. (The world design worked well though - soundscapes and the feel of the various areas). It's post-apoc! The game world should be mercilessly stingy with ammo, healing, etc, rather than the WL2 approach of giving you so much you can't carry it all.

And yes, ammo should absolutely have weight.
I see rangers as infantry. Soilders in war can carry over 100 pounds easy. That with all there kevlar vest and military gear. I see no point in weight for two big reasons. Rangers are train. And it the post-apoc I am sure the rough life would make the rangers strong engogh to have 10 in almost all stats. Rangers walk around every where. They deal with everything. Ammo weight should be zero or .001 pound for all ammo. Rangers have 99 problems ,ammo weight shouldn't be one of them.

Captain_Bonecold
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 4th, 2017, 1:07 am

Dork Mage wrote:
November 3rd, 2017, 6:45 pm
One of the points of the kickstarter WL2 was to have a game where there are consequences for one's choices.

You want to start with a medic/surgeon - give some other skill up. You want rapid SP growth - it will cost something, actually A LOT of something. 8 character points to start with. Are you sure you want that SP growth? Oh look, I just used 8 points and the next level is 10... so tempting.

It is done for a reason, just as perception or whatever... there is a penalty you have to live with.
3,5,6,7,9 are all wasted stat points for intelligence. Max lv 50.That 5 stats points added and skill points only count on each lv up.

A lv 1-50 max out int ranger with the plus 1 skill quirt after lv 10 would have 287 skill points before any skill points was spend.

Most rangers with 4 intelligence has 159 before spending any points.

The grind is murder. It takes 44 points to lv up 1 skill to 1-10. There are 29 skills right now. 11 skills could be max with int of 10 if you got 10 skills points for having 10 intelligence. We don't know all skills that are going to be in wasteland 3. I heard driving was coming in wasteland 3. That could be a skill. There could be 50-100 skills in wasteland 3 or even more. You complaining about intelligence skill point increase, but you don't have a clue what in wasteland 3.

Intelligence needs a boost.

demeisen
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by demeisen » November 4th, 2017, 8:19 am

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 12:03 am
I see rangers as infantry. Soilders in war can carry over 100 pounds easy.
Ammo weight is absolutely a major issue for real life soldiers, and in fact was a key driving force behind NATO going to a smaller round (5.56) for most soldiers: they can carry more of it. There is serious consideration given to who should carry 5.56mm and who should carry 7.62 (the soldier cannot carry as much, but the round has more terminal energy). Even for the strongest, most badass soldiers, ammo weight is a factor. This is not a trivial thing handwaved away in real life, it's a key consideration and drives many other decisions keyed off it.
rough life would make the rangers strong engogh to have 10 in almost all stats
It sounds like you want an "I win" button, not a good game.

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am

demeisen wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 8:19 am
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 12:03 am
I see rangers as infantry. Soilders in war can carry over 100 pounds easy.
Ammo weight is absolutely a major issue for real life soldiers, and in fact was a key driving force behind NATO going to a smaller round (5.56) for most soldiers: they can carry more of it. There is serious consideration given to who should carry 5.56mm and who should carry 7.62 (the soldier cannot carry as much, but the round has more terminal energy). Even for the strongest, most badass soldiers, ammo weight is a factor. This is not a trivial thing handwaved away in real life, it's a key consideration and drives many other decisions keyed off it.
rough life would make the rangers strong engogh to have 10 in almost all stats
It sounds like you want an "I win" button, not a good game.
Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train. Military gear weight alot. Soilders ruck alone can hold 100 or more pounds and usually has 20 or 30 pounds or more in it. Body armor and helmet is 33 pounds. Soilders clothing is less than 10 pounds. Then you got the electronic s and batteries which is 16 pounds. Then you have load carrying equipment. That anything from grenades,ammo, water carriers,ifak and etc. There too many items to go into details or to list. And this is not counting a soilders weapon weight.

Have you played a wasteland game? Rangers go though alot and have to deal with loads of bs.

Do you read topics fully? I never said rangers should have 10 in all stats.

Dork Mage
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Dork Mage » November 4th, 2017, 12:08 pm

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 1:07 am
3,5,6,7,9 are all wasted stat points for intelligence. Max lv 50.That 5 stats points added and skill points only count on each lv up.

A lv 1-50 max out int ranger with the plus 1 skill quirt after lv 10 would have 287 skill points before any skill points was spend.

Most rangers with 4 intelligence has 159 before spending any points.

The grind is murder. It takes 44 points to lv up 1 skill to 1-10. There are 29 skills right now. 11 skills could be max with int of 10 if you got 10 skills points for having 10 intelligence. We don't know all skills that are going to be in wasteland 3. I heard driving was coming in wasteland 3. That could be a skill. There could be 50-100 skills in wasteland 3 or even more. You complaining about intelligence skill point increase, but you don't have a clue what in wasteland 3.

Intelligence needs a boost.
WL2 assumed most recruits would be average (after all your not getting paid)... the exceptional would be rare and would not be a jack-of-all-trades. It seems that is what you are looking for. Every squad member is an expert at everything - it just takes a little leveling.

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Gizmo
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Gizmo » November 4th, 2017, 2:27 pm

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am
Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train.
A curious thing came out of the movie Predator; some guys in the military wanted to know if the mini-gun thing was at all possible for a strong guy to actually use in the field; they thought it could be a great way to clear a landing area in hostile territory. The problem (aside from logarithmic recoil) was that the ammo weighed too much; and the batteries weighed too much. For the film, they had a power cable running up the actor's pants leg, leading to car batteries hidden in the bushes. IRRC, one wasn't enough to believably spin the barrels on camera. The things were said to weigh about 40 pounds each.

Weight is an issue. Berkeley Bionics has been tackling it too... They have a working (experimental) exo-skeleton intended for infantry, that enables a person to carry well over 100 pounds (additional?) without really feeling the weight. The unit is self contained, and fits into a backpack when not in use. They wouldn't have bothered if weight wasn't an issue; and carrying more of it wasn't desirable.

**In Fallout (to name one example), the player did have to decide which ammo, and how much of it to bring; as they couldn't bring everything, and they couldn't hoard all that they found. They had to decide whether to bring extra rockets for long range area effect, or to bring extra rounds for the minigun; grenades—what kind of grenades; even grenades that did a lot of damage to robots, but were useless on raiders and mutants... etc. Flamer fuel or rockets was a big choice, as carrying both the launcher and the flamer with reasonable ammo for each was ridiculous.

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Grohal
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Grohal » November 4th, 2017, 3:20 pm

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am

Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train. ...
Yeah. They train and get better (like in game they gain levels) - and if you raise strength when leveling - tata - your ranger can carry more ammo.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

demeisen
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by demeisen » November 5th, 2017, 9:04 am

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am
Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train.
That is absolutely false. I'm not sure where you are getting that from, but it is... completely divorced from reality.

Ammo weight was the key factor driving adoption of the NATO 5.56 round. From wikipedia:

"Tests showed the .223 Remington cartridge fired from the AR-15 allowed an 8-soldier unit to outgun an 11-soldier unit armed with M14s at ranges closer than 300 meters. U.S. troops were able to carry more than twice as much .223 Remington ammunition as 7.62×51mm NATO for the same weight, which allowed them an advantage against a typical NVA unit armed with Type 56-1s. ... The .223 Remington cartridge, along with the M16 rifle, were initially adopted in 1962 by U.S. infantry forces as interim solutions to address the weight and control issues experienced with the 7.62×51mm round and M14 rifle."

Ammo weight is a HUGE tactical consideration for the military. The standard 5.56 NATO round was chosen specifically for the weight reduction and ability of soldiers to carry more of it.

It is simply not true that "Ammo weight is nothing to soliders". It drives a large number of design decisions surrounding military equipment.

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Zombra » November 5th, 2017, 7:01 pm

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 12:03 am
Rangers are train. And it the post-apoc I am sure the rough life would make the rangers strong engogh to have 10 in almost all stats.
Maybe in Wasteland 3, instead of being 1-10, stats should just go from 9-10. Awesome!
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Woolfe
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Woolfe » November 5th, 2017, 7:37 pm

I am wondering if perhaps we are missing part of the point you are trying to make about the Stats, due to a language miscommunication.

At one point you are saying that they should be able to have 10 in almost all stats. But then you say not a 10 in all stats.

Are you just trying to say that you feel the current stat levels could do some tweaking to make them higher overall? But not as high as 10 in everything.

They balanced the game with the idea that you would level up and thus improve stats. Is it that you would like the stats improvement to be greater/more frequent?

If so, do you have a reason why?
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 6th, 2017, 3:11 pm

Dork Mage wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 12:08 pm
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 1:07 am
3,5,6,7,9 are all wasted stat points for intelligence. Max lv 50.That 5 stats points added and skill points only count on each lv up.

A lv 1-50 max out int ranger with the plus 1 skill quirt after lv 10 would have 287 skill points before any skill points was spend.

Most rangers with 4 intelligence has 159 before spending any points.

The grind is murder. It takes 44 points to lv up 1 skill to 1-10. There are 29 skills right now. 11 skills could be max with int of 10 if you got 10 skills points for having 10 intelligence. We don't know all skills that are going to be in wasteland 3. I heard driving was coming in wasteland 3. That could be a skill. There could be 50-100 skills in wasteland 3 or even more. You complaining about intelligence skill point increase, but you don't have a clue what in wasteland 3.

Intelligence needs a boost.
WL2 assumed most recruits would be average (after all your not getting paid)... the exceptional would be rare and would not be a jack-of-all-trades. It seems that is what you are looking for. Every squad member is an expert at everything - it just takes a little leveling.
Not everybody going to having 10 in intelligence. Most players has 3 starting rangers at 4 intelligence. And 1 ranger at 10 intelligence. What happen in wasteland 2 director cut? Rangers focus on other skills. Even if I had 6 rangers to create I would limit 1 weapon type per Ranger. There are 10 weapon types. Every build I see on youtube avoids heavy weapons.

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 7th, 2017, 1:32 am

Grohal wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 3:20 pm
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am

Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train. ...
Yeah. They train and get better (like in game they gain levels) - and if you raise strength when leveling - tata - your ranger can carry more ammo.
Why are you focus on 1 option I suggest for ammo. I post 2 options. No weight or all ammo weight .001.

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 7th, 2017, 1:33 am

Zombra wrote:
November 5th, 2017, 7:01 pm
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 12:03 am
Rangers are train. And it the post-apoc I am sure the rough life would make the rangers strong engogh to have 10 in almost all stats.
Maybe in Wasteland 3, instead of being 1-10, stats should just go from 9-10. Awesome!
I rather all starting stats be 4 plus 7 free points.

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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Captain_Bonecold » November 7th, 2017, 1:58 am

Woolfe wrote:
November 5th, 2017, 7:37 pm
I am wondering if perhaps we are missing part of the point you are trying to make about the Stats, due to a language miscommunication.

At one point you are saying that they should be able to have 10 in almost all stats. But then you say not a 10 in all stats.

Are you just trying to say that you feel the current stat levels could do some tweaking to make them higher overall? But not as high as 10 in everything.

They balanced the game with the idea that you would level up and thus improve stats. Is it that you would like the stats improvement to be greater/more frequent?

If so, do you have a reason why?
I rather have a party of 6. I rather have all stats points in create rangers be 4 with 7 free points. I want to create 6 rangers to test a build. I want each point in intelligence to count. 5/6 rangers would have 4 intelligence. As intelligence only gives more skill points.

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Grohal
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Grohal » November 7th, 2017, 3:13 am

Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 1:32 am
Grohal wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 3:20 pm
Captain_Bonecold wrote:
November 4th, 2017, 11:32 am

Ammo weight is nothing to soilders. They train. ...
Yeah. They train and get better (like in game they gain levels) - and if you raise strength when leveling - tata - your ranger can carry more ammo.
Why are you focus on 1 option I suggest for ammo. I post 2 options. No weight or all ammo weight .001.
Well I take option 3 - ammo should weigh, what it weighs (roughly) in reality.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

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Gizmo
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Re: Bigger party,more ammo drops,reduce weight and etc...

Post by Gizmo » November 7th, 2017, 6:57 am

Grohal wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 3:13 am
Well I take option 3 - ammo should weigh, what it weighs (roughly) in reality.
I'll take that option as well.

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