Base Management

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Gizmo
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 1:29 am

Drool wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 9:54 pm
Gizmo wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 2:05 pm
made detonating the big one a whimsical affair that conveniently converts the town, rather than destroys it
If by "converts" you mean "utterly destroys Megaton", then yes. It converts it.
No... As I understand it, it simply makes a ghoul of Moira... so as not to inconvenience the player doing her quests—but whom they decided to explode with a nuke. How's that for choice & consequence... To have the cake and eat it too. It's the motto for each of their games.

Does it surprise you that I've never detonated the Megaton bomb in FO3(?); just read about it, and seen a few video clips. Their treatment of it is absurd; (that's not even counting that the town sheriff allows a drifter to tamper with an unexploded warhead, one that he truly believes to be dangerous). It's a Fallout-World theme park, not an RPG. Their NPC AI leaves a lot of disappointment in its wake too. I noticed that they worship the bomb, but don't notice the PC attacking it in front of them. Wouldn't seem trivial to track PC attacks on the bomb, and use that in the town?

But they do notice being attacked, and the town instantly unites as a mob, to kill the PC... but then shifts on a dime to mundane gossiping when the PC disappears in front of them via stealthboy. :? It's like they were never in a huff, just two seconds earlier.

**Have a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKqHcT16Xio

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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 17th, 2017, 9:55 am

yeah, starting out a tutourial town by having NPC's attack you for selecting somthing
that seems super fun

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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 11:17 am

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 9:55 am
yeah, starting out a tutourial town by having NPC's attack you for selecting somthing
that seems super fun
Not everything should be fun (in a game, or otherwise); but that's beside the point; and a thing that seems not commonly understood by an audience these days. On the surface it sounds great, but in practice, this saps the very meaning of 'fun', turning novelty into irritation. The concept is depicted well in an episode of the Twilight Zone, titled, "A Nice Place To Visit".

The point was that the AI is weak in all of their games. Weak AI is why there are no ladders in Oblivion and FO3. Even though it's trivial to create functional ladders in the game... The NPC AI can't handle them sensibly—so they are scrapped; (not to imply that the AI part is trivial).
Image

... But this was about the bomb. The bomb was the centerpiece of the first place most player's will encounter; first impressions. The bomb probably should have triggered a reaction if defaced—especially by weapons-fire in the middle of town. The bigger problem is that the player can shoot their guns in the middle of town, and they only trigger reaction if they happen to hit someone; (the first town in Fallout insisted all weapons be holstered before entering). These omissions and oversights damage suspension of disbelief, when some are so minor.

...And in case it isn't obvious: I'm hoping we don't see similar in WL3. Scope and circumstance will be different of course, but hopefully play-testing will identify emergent situations that could do the same kind of damage.

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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 17th, 2017, 12:33 pm

oh god, you're one of those people

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Gizmo
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 12:42 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 12:33 pm
oh god, you're one of those people
Yeees... Image

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Re: Base Management

Post by Zombra » July 17th, 2017, 1:03 pm

Friendly reminder not to get personal here :D
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 17th, 2017, 1:59 pm

those games are old as balls, you can't expect a game from 2006 or 2008 to have perfect AI
of course they had to take shortcuts, if they coded in every tiny little detail, the games back then would have taken ages to come out and ages for you to even load into it
it's not fair to bitch about small things like that
who cares about ladders when they can find a path to you anyways, ladders would just cheapen it because you get free shots while they're climbing to get at you
who cares about worshippers not attacking you for touching the thing they worship, they're all about sharing the great glow, if you want to go stand right next to it, who are they to deny you
who cares if you use your weapon, as long as you don't hit someone, and nobody actively reacts besides a general "woah" or a "put that thing away" voice line

these are games
games are not meant to be realistic
that's the whole point, just pretend it's a normal thing for that fictional universe to not build ladders in caves where you don't really need a ladder in the first place

what you want is people like Kojima being let loose and add tiny little features into games to make them feel more alive
well you can't have that
game companies won't allow that, because all it does is take away time from development because one guy wanted everyone to work on making your character able to slide down a dune using a box
it's fun, it's cool, but it's just a gimmick that gets old pretty fast and adds no value whatsoever to the game after you've seen it like 5 times

do I want small features like that in every game I've ever played? yes
but I'm a realistic asshole, I know not to expect too much extra

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Gizmo
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 2:50 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 1:59 pm
those games are old as balls, you can't expect a game from 2006 or 2008 to have perfect AI
I think you over estimate the limitations. As far as I'm concerned Fallout 2 had better AI than FO3, but to your point... Halo 1 seemed to have better AI than FO3; and the player could be driving jeeps, hovercraft, tanks, or aircraft.
  • who cares about worshippers not attacking you for touching the thing they worship, they're all about sharing the great glow, if you want to go stand right next to it, who are they to deny you
    who cares if you use your weapon, as long as you don't hit someone, and nobody actively reacts besides a general "woah" or a "put that thing away" voice line
    "Who are they...(to tug on Superman's cape)?" That is "the chosen one" attitude. That speaks of the expectation that the PC is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and everybody better know it. (!) That is the bane of the modern RPG, either the player thinks it, or the developer thinks they have to cater to it. :(
    In any case, it makes trying to roleplay the PC into a farse —wrapped in a "the customer is always right" philosophy of servile design or the expectation of it. That would have ended Fallout 1 had they taken that attitude.
  • these are games
    games are not meant to be realistic
    Not so. Some games are not meant to be realistic, not all. There is no problem with unrealistic games... The problem comes of unrelated sequels, where the next in the series falls flat, delivering nothing of what's expected of the name. Like if the next Elder Scrolls game brutally held the player to the consequences of their actions... (Which is the reverse of how it is with FO3.)
  • what you want is people like Kojima being let loose and add tiny little features into games to make them feel more alive
    well you can't have that:
    That's your guesswork assumption... only. I am not a fan of simulators, I don't care if I can pick up the plates and forks. I care about investing attention into a roleplaying game... and losing that investment because it expects the player to need a only flashy light show and an unhealthy dose of flattery to be entertained—and not bad-mouth the game to their friends. Buying a Fallout branded game and having it turn out to be like FO3, is like buying brand name Vitamins, and discovering that the ingredients have been changed to just sugar & food coloring. Buying Honey, and in the fine print, it says, "Maltitol syrup". Things that look the part initially, but don't deliver or measure up anywhere close to the brand name expectation, or expected use of the product. (In this case... that use being roleplaying—but being the only one in the game attempting it.)
__

On the topic of base management... I would not want a digital tree-house; a play-fort to spend time in playing fort. Pillars of Eternity (so far as I've gotten) seems like a decent model to base a ranger center on. Something you can administer over the radio, and with care, something that could improve the area where it's located. Occasionally needing personal action on site, but not being a Wasteland Tamagotchi pet.

It might be neat to secure/ claim, or acquire technology and equipment to be sent back to the base. Imagine salvaging a Howitzer, and shipping it home. Perhaps finding shells for it somewhere else, and having a few shots for the thing—that is otherwise a bluff.

Questions:
  1. Could InXile use an M-29 jeep mounted rifle in WL3? (Probably best if there was only one or two rounds for it in the game.)
  2. Does the engine support animated displacement? (...as in shock waves rippling the ground, like in Bungie's Myth The Fallen Lords.)
  3. Could parts of the base be destructible?

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Re: Base Management

Post by Remo » July 17th, 2017, 5:52 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 2:05 pm
Remo wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 4:27 am
Bottom line, you are wayy too salty about Beth ;)
With years worth of reasons.

[.. long rant ..]
Your constant need to complain about FO/Beth and validate your feelings about it, with such long rants that has absolutely nothing todo the with topic, prove my point.

Now lets get back on topic, or start a new thread.

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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » July 17th, 2017, 6:26 pm

OK.. this is my take on the base.

Make it a location that you can return to, store stuff, buy stuff, get free/cheap healing etc. A "home". I don't really give a damn if you make it "customisable", though it would be kind of cool for trophies of missions or something appear in your teams "ready room" or something.

In some instances it could and should be a mission HUB. With the Base leader, and other folk or significance having missions to perform to improve the base or other things in different ways.

As to its growth. Have it grow naturally based on how well you are doing across the board. If you find a group of "lost" folk. Maybe you send them back to base and they "integrate" (or not) into the base, adding to it in some way. Over time the base expands organically. If a group of Farmers have joined up, then part of the base area becomes farmland, and farmed supplies become cheaper.
You should be able to influence the growth, by actively seeking groups to join up. But that should come with pitfalls as well. You should also be able to influence by directly performing missions. Base is low on a certain type of supply, you go out and secure it for them. Base is lacking in a certain facility, you go out looking for appropriate items/people to enable the facility to be built.

Population growth should also be organic. As the reputation grows people arrive on their own.
Population growth should also be restricted at times "we had to turn some folk away cause we just don't have enough food" etc.
As the population grows, more people should be trained into ranger squads, for defence etc. Freeing your team up from doing mundane fetch quests, and returning to defend.

Have it be attacked. You have a radio. If you are out and about, you might get a call from an early warning system. "crazy folk gathering, get back here and help defend". If you go back, you can help defence. If you don't they fight anyway. They have defences. If they lose they suffer a setback, but don't get wiped out. (Except in special circumstances?)

Again you should be able to influence the defences. If you keep bringing back ammunition and weapons of good quality, the quality of the defences improve. Or you might go and find specific people to help trainers, gunsmiths, fighters etc, or equipment. scavenge the components of a killer robot to be turned into a base turret etc.

Give it a reputation, that is both tied to your team, but also independent of it. So if you are doing well, it will affect the bases rep, and vice versa.
Make diplomacy important. If you sign a treaty with a nearby township, you will be expected to fulfil the aspects of that treaty. Which might mean you have to improve ranger base in a certain way in order to be able to manage it.

Give it some internal politics. Doesn't have to be significant. Might even just be annoying stuff. If you ignore a certain guys requests, maybe you don't get a certain thing cheap anymore etc.

My premise is that your team is a significant part of the Ranger Organisation, but you are not the whole of the organisation. So whilst you can influence the growth, you do not directly control it.
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 8:18 pm

Remo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 5:52 pm
Your constant need to complain about FO/Beth and validate your feelings about it, with such long rants that has absolutely nothing todo the with topic, prove my point.
You did ask, so I explained. ;)
__

Of bases, I think it could be very nice to prepare more than one location for the base; even if choosing one locks off the others. Each player's base could have differing local resources and natural defenses. One could be nigh impregnable, but a long way from anyplace useful. Another could be near a lake, or up in the mountains. One could be a decommissioned missile silo; with 25 ton gate... The hope being that the base is never presented as a gift, but as be something the player has to figure out, in order to perhaps even know it's there; or to even get the opportunity to try for it. With more than one choice available, the player could fail in attempts at multiple bases, before succeeding with one.

Did anyone here read Jules Verne's The Mysterious Island? (I mean the book, not the TV movie.)
Do you remember how they discovered their base? Something like that in WL3 could be quite interesting IMO.

(**They discovered their future home, by noticing a prominent, but unusual feature of the landscape, and questioned its source. This lead them to another part of the island, where they discovered a way to make a seemingly uninhabitable (underwater) location into their home.)

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Re: Base Management

Post by Drool » July 17th, 2017, 9:50 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 1:29 am
Drool wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 9:54 pm
Gizmo wrote:
July 16th, 2017, 2:05 pm
made detonating the big one a whimsical affair that conveniently converts the town, rather than destroys it
If by "converts" you mean "utterly destroys Megaton", then yes. It converts it.
No... As I understand it, it simply makes a ghoul of Moira... so as not to inconvenience the player doing her quests—but whom they decided to explode with a nuke.
Well, I mean, I actually put 100+ hours into FO3, but sure. You're right. It only ghoulifies Moira and does nothing else.
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » July 17th, 2017, 9:56 pm

Drool wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 9:50 pm
Well, I mean, I actually put 100+ hours into FO3, but sure. You're right. It only ghoulifies Moira and does nothing else.
What else does it do? (I mean practically)

(I stumbled upon the dad early, by chance exploration, and so have really only played about a third of the game... I expect. I think I lost interest after freeing him from Tranquility lane.)

**But the original comment was more about before the detonation.

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Re: Base Management

Post by Remo » July 18th, 2017, 1:15 am

Woolfe wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 6:26 pm
Make it a location that you can return to, store stuff, buy stuff, get free/cheap healing etc. A "home". I don't really give a damn if you make it "customisable", though it would be kind of cool for trophies of missions or something appear in your teams "ready room" or something.
Yeah, something like Ranger museum in WL2.
In some instances it could and should be a mission HUB. With the Base leader, and other folk or significance having missions to perform to improve the base or other things in different ways.
Yeah, hopefully with better missions that WL2 fetch me some painkillers/shit/scrap.
As to its growth. Have it grow naturally based on how well you are doing across the board. If you find a group of "lost" folk. Maybe you send them back to base and they "integrate" (or not) into the base, adding to it in some way. Over time the base expands organically. If a group of Farmers have joined up, then part of the base area becomes farmland, and farmed supplies become cheaper.
I agree with idea of the base expanding organically over time. Not sure about the farmland example though, I prefer to rely on the surrounding communities for that (like AG center in WL2) this way we can keep the focus on venturing forth to establish the lay of the land and forge relations with the people of Colorado.

According to the design doc we will be able to recruit promising new Rangers and support personnel from the local population. One of the examples above, made me think it might be interesting to make use the brig in some instances to bring people into the fold.
Population growth should also be organic. As the reputation grows people arrive on their own.
Population growth should also be restricted at times "we had to turn some folk away cause we just don't have enough food" etc.
As the population grows, more people should be trained into ranger squads, for defence etc. Freeing your team up from doing mundane fetch quests, and returning to defend.
I agree with this in principle. But I would prefer not go the simulation route, I think that things like having population count, farmers, food count, etc belong to a more dedicated base building game, whilst we need much more simplified resource management system if at all. Hence I am not in favor of the ideas after that that rely on that, but they does sound interesting and fun brain storming.
Give it some internal politics. Doesn't have to be significant. Might even just be annoying stuff. If you ignore a certain guys requests, maybe you don't get a certain thing cheap anymore etc.
I am having a hard time to think of something specific, but maybe. I would certainly love to see some party "politics".

----
Gizmo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 8:18 pm
Remo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 5:52 pm
Your constant need to complain about FO/Beth and validate your feelings about it, with such long rants that has absolutely nothing todo the with topic, prove my point.
You did ask, so I explained. ;)
No i didn't. You got defensive over me calling you salty, and felt the need to prove me something I don't care about here. And FYI i do know your reasons, infact if you have a user with same name on NMA then we joked about these in the past.. but this is not the topic and after a decade the whole 'nudge nudge wink wink Beth!' is getting old.
Last edited by Remo on July 18th, 2017, 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Zombra
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Re: Base Management

Post by Zombra » July 18th, 2017, 1:27 am

Yo, seriously, enough with the personal bickering. Official warnings to follow.
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Re: Base Management

Post by Grohal » July 18th, 2017, 2:20 am

Gizmo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 9:56 pm
Drool wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 9:50 pm
Well, I mean, I actually put 100+ hours into FO3, but sure. You're right. It only ghoulifies Moira and does nothing else.
What else does it do? (I mean practically)

(I stumbled upon the dad early, by chance exploration, and so have really only played about a third of the game... I expect. I think I lost interest after freeing him from Tranquility lane.)

**But the original comment was more about before the detonation.
Well Megaton is a smoking hole in the ground and everyone else is dead. Don't know if this counts as "practical" though. One or two traders less I'd guess. :mrgreen:
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 18th, 2017, 11:24 am

turns out Megaton and Ranger Base 2 have something in common
a madman armed a nuke so some old weirdo could trigger it
(I'm talking about chief kekkahbah)

I always thought it was a shame there weren't more popculture references in games, "You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell" if you finish the game with a gorilla costume


also I hope the writing is better in this game, I always hated how you got to Los Angeles
you just crashland in the LA base and happen to survive
they should have made the chopper land nearby, go on foot (loading screen, not actually walk there because I'd just wander off) and go from there
and after you do the thing and block off the holes, you go back to the chopper with a bit of leftover fuel so the chopper can go land in the base (followed by receiving a quest to find chopper fuel)
which would also fix the dumbass "going back to Arizona using a chopper left by the other guys who flew off like 5 minutes ago and still arrive after the base has been taken over"
they should have just gone with slides saying "you took two barrels of fuel back to the base and boarded that chopper home" so it would make sense you'd be behind

or even easier, have the pilot survive, and when you turn Dugan into scrap radio the LA HQ to send over the pilot, escorted by the people you recruited there or something, so it would make sense you arrive hours later


anyways
the base shouldn't have those stupid repeatable quests Skyrim used as a selling point, I don't enjoy "go there with no backstory, kill it and return for way too many gold pieces" quests, and they continued that in Fallout 4
I don't want filler content I won't play anyways, at the very least give me some randomised textbased backstory and small rewards so it's more of a "I'll do it if it's on the way" kinda thing
also don't make the base expand on it's own
I'm the one who chooses who comes in, random people who don't know who the Rangers are won't come knocking anyways
new staff should be rewards for the MGS V-like staff missions I suggested

you pick a mission, you pick either a squad or select staff to form a squad and send them out, and a couple of hours later they come back with fatigue, wounds and rewards, which could be anything from base expanding items, staff, improving the stock of the store, ammo, weapons, armour, clothing, whatever is usable for a Ranger base and it's Rangers
and you, being the Big Boss gets to pick who gets what
and besides, missions could have a pre-requisite cost too, like a 500 scrap bribe for a mission, and when they radio in to ask you what to do you could tell them to ambush the enemy and risk losing the hostage or even a ranger but getting more loot or something

you know
be in charge, make the tough choices

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Re: Base Management

Post by Drool » July 18th, 2017, 8:51 pm

Gizmo wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 9:56 pm
What else does it do? (I mean practically)
Annihilates the town. You basically fast travel to a giant crater. All NPCs (except Moira) are dead; all shops are gone; the player house is gone; if you haven't gotten the Bobblehead in town before destroying it, that's also destroyed. You father also chews you out for destroying it. And, of course, you get something like -1000 Karma for doing so. I believe Three Dog also mentions it on the radio.
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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » July 18th, 2017, 9:30 pm

Remo wrote:
July 18th, 2017, 1:15 am
Woolfe wrote:
July 17th, 2017, 6:26 pm
As to its growth. Have it grow naturally based on how well you are doing across the board. If you find a group of "lost" folk. Maybe you send them back to base and they "integrate" (or not) into the base, adding to it in some way. Over time the base expands organically. If a group of Farmers have joined up, then part of the base area becomes farmland, and farmed supplies become cheaper.
I agree with idea of the base expanding organically over time. Not sure about the farmland example though, I prefer to rely on the surrounding communities for that (like AG center in WL2) this way we can keep the focus on venturing forth to establish the lay of the land and forge relations with the people of Colorado.
Was just the first example that came to mind, you get the drift though...
According to the design doc we will be able to recruit promising new Rangers and support personnel from the local population. One of the examples above, made me think it might be interesting to make use the brig in some instances to bring people into the fold.
Dirty Dozen style?
Population growth should also be organic. As the reputation grows people arrive on their own.
Population growth should also be restricted at times "we had to turn some folk away cause we just don't have enough food" etc.
As the population grows, more people should be trained into ranger squads, for defence etc. Freeing your team up from doing mundane fetch quests, and returning to defend.
I agree with this in principle. But I would prefer not go the simulation route, I think that things like having population count, farmers, food count, etc belong to a more dedicated base building game, whilst we need much more simplified resource management system if at all. Hence I am not in favor of the ideas after that that rely on that, but they does sound interesting and fun brain storming.
Oh totally agreed. If there are "numbers" they should be hidden from the player, essentially just that sometimes if you ignore certain needs, it might have a negative impact on the growth. So you might need to weigh up going after party benefits in favour of doing a little base grunt work or something every so often.
Give it some internal politics. Doesn't have to be significant. Might even just be annoying stuff. If you ignore a certain guys requests, maybe you don't get a certain thing cheap anymore etc.
I am having a hard time to think of something specific, but maybe. I would certainly love to see some party "politics".
Yeah I was mostly thinking minor stuff, a little push and pull in town...
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 19th, 2017, 7:46 am

how is numbers bad?
"you have 3 engineers fixing and upgrading weaponry" "you have 5 medics at work" "you have 2 ranger squads ready to head out"
how is that bad?

you're not playing a city building game, you're building a militairy base, having exact staff numbers is a must, you don't need to add food or water into the count
just increase the staff in the mess hall or something to keep up with demand, just a simple bar would do the trick

you might even go a step further and add staff happiness, if a staff member has a high medic skill but you put him in the mess hall, he won't be happy and eventually he might leave, he might end up fighting and end up in the brig, he might even talk other rangers into leaving or lower happiness of everyone in the mess hall staff
stuff like that
choices and consequences people, CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES

but not for followers, I don't care about old timey RPG's that make evil characters leave because you're not playing an evil group or make good characters leave because you loot a village
you know who you are, the people who join you know who you are, caravan talk moves fast, they know what to expect
also I always took advantage Pizepi Joren not knowing you tell anyone when she's not around or in the mess hall
I told Vargas with her still at the entrance doors, I told Thrasher, and as long as she's not in your group or in the mess hall she doesn't know and can't leave


I said it
I finally said it

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