Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

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Elderin
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Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Elderin » May 8th, 2017, 2:38 pm

I'm not sure why RPGs don't do this but I think it would be great if characters had two skill point pools: combat vs noncombat. It would allow more noncombat skill experimentation without feeling like you're gimping your character in combat.

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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by kilobug » May 9th, 2017, 2:15 am

I'm not fond of that in team-based RPGs, because then I often have distinct "combat characters" and "utility characters", forcing each character to do a bit of both would reduce freedom of customization, lower realism and ability for roleplay.

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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Zombra » May 9th, 2017, 8:43 am

Agree with kilobug. I understand that freedom can be scary but learning which builds work and which don't is part of the fun of RPGs. You're really asking for less ability to experiment when you ask for skill point restrictions.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Woolfe » May 9th, 2017, 6:50 pm

I agree as well, but with caveats... I don't mind the idea of Combat v Non-combat. But in many ways it is trying to solve the hole made by the lack of LBD.

In original WL, you put a point into a weapon skill, and then the constant use improved it, so you never really had to put any more points into it... Whereas Doctor and other skills, were used so infrequently(ok maybe not doctor ;) ) that the chance of getting a LBD improvement was fairly slim, so you had to pump points into the skill.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by sear » May 10th, 2017, 9:47 pm

Good suggestion! I've seen this in other RPGs and generally liked it when it's been done. However, at least at this time, we don't have a split skill point system in mind for Wasteland 3.

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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Grohal » May 11th, 2017, 1:00 am

sear wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 9:47 pm
Good suggestion! I've seen this in other RPGs and generally liked it when it's been done. However, at least at this time, we don't have a split skill point system in mind for Wasteland 3.
That is a relieve. I always prefer more freedom. :mrgreen:
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Crosmando » May 11th, 2017, 6:58 am

A better idea would be to try and create combat applications for otherwise non-combat skills, WL2 did this a bit with Outdoorsman being used on animals in battle etc, but more expanded.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Grohal » May 11th, 2017, 7:22 am

Crosmando wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 6:58 am
A better idea would be to try and create combat applications for otherwise non-combat skills, WL2 did this a bit with Outdoorsman being used on animals in battle etc, but more expanded.
I would be better if they would interweave skills with skills and attributes way more. But we had that theme already in a seperate thread I think.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by sear » May 11th, 2017, 12:12 pm

Crosmando wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 6:58 am
A better idea would be to try and create combat applications for otherwise non-combat skills, WL2 did this a bit with Outdoorsman being used on animals in battle etc, but more expanded.
We pushed in this direction with perks in Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, and we're considering having more synergies between exploration and combat skills in Wasteland 3.

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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Crosmando » May 11th, 2017, 12:51 pm

sear wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 12:12 pm
Crosmando wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 6:58 am
A better idea would be to try and create combat applications for otherwise non-combat skills, WL2 did this a bit with Outdoorsman being used on animals in battle etc, but more expanded.
We pushed in this direction with perks in Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, and we're considering having more synergies between exploration and combat skills in Wasteland 3.
Stuff like Swimming and Climbing would be great, you don't even need to animate it, you could just do one of those "Storybook" CYOA things like Pillars of Eternity did.

Some other ideas for combat applications:
Computer Science - Being able to hack into enemy robots at range (wirelessly) and make them go haywire or turn completely to your side.
Animal Whisperer - Same as above but for animal enemies (similar to WL2), but this time being able to do it at range.
Hard Ass - Ability to do an "Intimidating Shout" ability which reduces the fighting strength of nearby enemies.
Kiss Ass - Ability to do a "Charm" ability which can stun a human enemy or turn them to your side in combat.
Last edited by Crosmando on May 13th, 2017, 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by undecaf » May 11th, 2017, 1:04 pm

Not bad ideas, but I'd stay away from stuff like "Charm" and "intimidating shout", (and possibly even remote animal whisperer). Too reminiscent of magic spells (even if they're not).
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Grohal » May 12th, 2017, 12:57 am

sear wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 12:12 pm
Crosmando wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 6:58 am
A better idea would be to try and create combat applications for otherwise non-combat skills, WL2 did this a bit with Outdoorsman being used on animals in battle etc, but more expanded.
We pushed in this direction with perks in Wasteland 2: Director's Cut, and we're considering having more synergies between exploration and combat skills in Wasteland 3.
Sounds interesting - can't wait to see the first early build. :)
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Crosmando » May 13th, 2017, 8:57 pm

undecaf wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 1:04 pm
Not bad ideas, but I'd stay away from stuff like "Charm" and "intimidating shout", (and possibly even remote animal whisperer). Too reminiscent of magic spells (even if they're not).
Better than just using weapons in combat and nothing else.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by undecaf » May 13th, 2017, 11:41 pm

Crosmando wrote:
May 13th, 2017, 8:57 pm
undecaf wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 1:04 pm
Not bad ideas, but I'd stay away from stuff like "Charm" and "intimidating shout", (and possibly even remote animal whisperer). Too reminiscent of magic spells (even if they're not).
Better than just using weapons in combat and nothing else.
I wouldn't necessarily say so. "Magic spells" are not really something that I would consider "better than nothing".

Rather add a few skills that might have creative use both in and out of combat (lke acrobatics or stealth) than forcibly harness clearly noncombat skills into having combat use. I mean, you could also make lockpicking a combat utility by allowing the player to stab enemies with lockpicks, but that does sound pretty... forced.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by Crosmando » May 13th, 2017, 11:43 pm

undecaf wrote:
May 13th, 2017, 11:41 pm
Crosmando wrote:
May 13th, 2017, 8:57 pm
undecaf wrote:
May 11th, 2017, 1:04 pm
Not bad ideas, but I'd stay away from stuff like "Charm" and "intimidating shout", (and possibly even remote animal whisperer). Too reminiscent of magic spells (even if they're not).
Better than just using weapons in combat and nothing else.
I wouldn't necessarily say so. "Magic spells" are not really something that I would consider "better than nothing".

Rather add a few skills that might have creative use both in and out of combat (lke acrobatics or stealth) than forcibly harness clearly noncombat skills into having combat use. I mean, you could also make lockpicking a combat utility by allowing the player to stab enemies with lockpicks, but that does sound pretty... forced.
They aren't magic. Underrail (another post-apoc, turn-based RPG) does a similar thing and it works fine (http://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Yell). Also I didn't mention Lockpicking and other skills because obviously they would only work as non-combat.
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Re: Separate skill points for combat vs noncombat?

Post by undecaf » May 13th, 2017, 11:48 pm

Crosmando wrote:
May 13th, 2017, 11:43 pm
They aren't magic.
Yeah, I agreed they aren't (as described by you), but that's the feeling they have. An instant charm or fear effect during combat does sound more like magic than anything else.


I agree with the premise of spicing up combat with other skill uses, but I would want it to be something a bit more feasible than magic-like "remote hypnotism".
- Like using acrobatics - add a skill for it - to rush enemies with lowered chances of being hit,
- Or using stealth - add a skill for it - to hide in the terrain which might result in much shorter movement range per turn, a chance of evading enemy attention (including overwatch) until revealing your position by firing, and increased critical chance since you have the chance to take the enemy by surprise.

And other stuff along those lines....
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