Just Suggestions

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Hefarius
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Just Suggestions

Post by Hefarius » February 2nd, 2017, 9:09 am

I know game is in development for some time as well many things are already done or will be taken directly from W2 as already tested, but I do have some suggestions to include:

* definitely include Rail Nomads in Colorado - there are cultural works that include trains and snow in apocalypse e.g. Transarctica game and movie Snowpiercer. Also RN form a distinguishable faction for Wasteland games. Maybe fighting armoured trains as part of vehicle combat is a bit too much, but may sound reasonable to expect if Rangers dare to attack them.

*I don't know how many vehicles you do want to include in-game, but some tracked snowcat apc (think of something like BoS APC from FTactics) would suit be fine. Or armoured dozer with extension for crew and cargo. Or both of them as some slow, but sturdy vehicle.

*Moreover - Ex-Gorkinovich owned armoured truck would also contribute to lore wise vehicles.

*Mormons from nearby Utah - yeah, I got that from Van Buren, but it would be nice to see some normal religion survive the apocalypse as well.

*Ranger Base - There was Ranger Center, Ranger Citadel - perhaps it should be called Stronghold or etc? Just not some random "base". It shall be nicked "Echo base" in memory of Echo Team from W2, as well as easter egg regarding Empire Strikes Back.

*Flamers - both handheld pistol flamers and larger ones (governed by shotgun or AR skill). Especially eye-catching weapon for white surroundings.

*Grenade launchers - normal launchers and grenades shall be governed by strenght or coordination stat(not to overuse them as ace in the hole by unleveled characters), but including m79 (AR skill) or RG-6 or Milkor RGL (heavy skill) may give team fine way of precise fire or support. Grenades may come in variants - gas, flash, frag, emp etc.

*Spears - almost forgotten type of weaponry in RPG - yet the most simple to make and adding some tactical advantage (e.g. attacks carried out from one square distance from enemy). May be useful for melee oriented party and for fighting critters that will not return fire. Or those that pose threat in touching (rabid, poisonous, infected). Melee parties often got infested in Ag Center and spear could come in handy. Also makeshift cleaver making return from W2 would fit as DIY weapon - similar to axe used by Fish-Lips in gameplay trailer.

*Different ammo types - FMJ, JHP, Slug... = more tactical options.

*Minimum of two merchants per larger locations - one from some guild, other one local. Guild one amy have better or worse prices or goods than local, but subsequent dealing with guild may prove beneficial one way or other (discounts, better equipment, some extra stuff). It could be counted by adding sheer value of things bought from trader in that location.

*Random encounters - more variety - I always encountered 3-4 thugs in a group, which wasn't were demanding. A pack of wolves, tribals, troglodytes would be a fine variety.

That is all I came up with at this moment. Their implementation shouldn't influence story (besides Rail Nomads or Mormons) or gameplay too much either.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Drool » February 2nd, 2017, 10:55 pm

Hefarius wrote:definitely include Rail Nomads in Colorado - there are cultural works that include trains and snow in apocalypse e.g. Transarctica game and movie Snowpiercer. Also RN form a distinguishable faction for Wasteland games. Maybe fighting armoured trains as part of vehicle combat is a bit too much, but may sound reasonable to expect if Rangers dare to attack them.
This isn't a terrible idea, really. It certainly makes more sense than the Jerks being in LA.

Hell, perhaps your [sigh]lone surviving Ranger[/sigh] gets to Colorado in the first place by taking a ride with the Nomads.
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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Grohal » February 3rd, 2017, 12:11 am

Drool wrote:
Hefarius wrote:definitely include Rail Nomads in Colorado - there are cultural works that include trains and snow in apocalypse e.g. Transarctica game and movie Snowpiercer. Also RN form a distinguishable faction for Wasteland games. Maybe fighting armoured trains as part of vehicle combat is a bit too much, but may sound reasonable to expect if Rangers dare to attack them.
This isn't a terrible idea, really. It certainly makes more sense than the Jerks being in LA.

Hell, perhaps your [sigh]lone surviving Ranger[/sigh] gets to Colorado in the first place by taking a ride with the Nomads.
Or it could be survivors of the Santa Fe Clan.
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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by SagaDC » February 3rd, 2017, 6:34 am

Hefarius wrote:* definitely include Rail Nomads in Colorado
Sure, I could get behind that. It would certainly make more sense than the Rangers having a fleet of helicopters, like they did in Wasteland 2.
Hefarius wrote:*Mormons from nearby Utah - yeah, I got that from Van Buren, but it would be nice to see some normal religion survive the apocalypse as well.
It would be nice to get at least a little use out of the "Religion" attribute. That was purely for show in Wasteland 2. ;)
Hefarius wrote:*Flamers - both handheld pistol flamers and larger ones (governed by shotgun or AR skill). Especially eye-catching weapon for white surroundings.
Flamethrowers are apparently already confirmed. Update #5 showed a weapon called the "Spitfire", which is described as a "cobbled-together flame weapon, jury rigged from a motorcycle tank and assorted vehicle parts". It can apparently "discharge short bursts of fire over a great distance with surprising accuracy".

Visually, it heavily resembles a conventional flamethrower. From the description, though, it might just end up being a standard single-target ranged weapon that happens to do flame damage.
Hefarius wrote:*Grenade launchers
Sure, I'd like to see those. Hopefully they'll actually have an explosives-related skill this time around.
Hefarius wrote:*Different ammo types - FMJ, JHP, Slug... = more tactical options.
They actually started implementing ammo types during the early Beta for Wasteland 2, but ended up cutting them back out before release. Development on the ammo types never got very far, but they had placeholders for Armor Piercing and Hollow Point ammunition for most guns, as well as Buckshot and T Shot shells for shotguns. That's when they established the "ammo modifiers" such as Penetration, Bonus Damage, and Bullet Expansion, which were supposed to alter a gun's performance based on what kind of ammunition you had loaded.

I was definitely disappointed when they quietly cut it from the game, and would love to see them in Wasteland 3.

But that said, apparently there are some folks who just don't want to deal with that level of micromanagement. :)

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by crimsoncorporation » February 3rd, 2017, 2:36 pm

SagaDC wrote: But that said, apparently there are some folks who just don't want to deal with that level of micromanagement. :)
Could be something that only makes an appearance in higher difficulty levels, or just be an option in general.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by SagaDC » February 3rd, 2017, 3:32 pm

crimsoncorporation wrote:
SagaDC wrote: But that said, apparently there are some folks who just don't want to deal with that level of micromanagement. :)
Could be something that only makes an appearance in higher difficulty levels, or just be an option in general.
True, but then it would have to be an inherently shallower mechanic to make sure it could be easily enabled or disabled.

I'd rather have a well-integrated mechanic that's balanced with the rest of the combat mechanics, rather than a modular optional mechanic that you can literally just ignore. :)

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by crimsoncorporation » February 4th, 2017, 12:39 pm

SagaDC wrote: I'd rather have a well-integrated mechanic that's balanced with the rest of the combat mechanics, rather than a modular optional mechanic that you can literally just ignore. :)
I would be fine with the ignoring if it only happened at the lowest two difficulty rankings... I think it's justifiable to have less complexity there, plus it opens up a new dimension when trying a harder one.

But in general I'm absolutely with you, ignoring as an option should only be done with a properly balanced game.

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sear
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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by sear » February 4th, 2017, 12:49 pm

Speaking personally (which does not necessarily reflect on the game), ammo types are one of those cool features that I like a lot in single-character games, but also feel it gets to be a bit much to micromanage in a party-based game.

There are some combat changes we're planning for the game over Wasteland 2, and while I don't know if that includes ammo types, some of what we are thinking about could help fill a similar utility.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Hefarius » February 4th, 2017, 1:42 pm

Concerning only weapons:

For mentioned Spears - unless only one variant (maybe two - modern tactical one being the other one - vide United Cutlery survival spear)

Proposed Tier:
1)Sharpened Pole (the most simple, equivalent of Morrowind's chitin spear)
2) Spear
3)Barbed Spear (bonus to bleeding)
4) Serrated Spear (bonus to bleeding)
5) Tactical spear
6) Piston (bonus to penetration)

Some mid tier - sharpened spear may also occur
Any Mad Max 4 "thunderpoons" undesirable as there would be separate explosive skills and weapon tiers

Grenade Launchers:
1) Homemade Launcher (think of it as RE7 version or something juryrigged as Rauhman Candle from W2)
2) CIS 40
3) M79 (oldie, but goldie - some are used back again in the Middle East)
4)Brugger&Thomet GL 06
5) Sage Control (2 rounds)
6) Milkor MGL (6 rounds)

also China Lake as curio or hidden weapon as there are really scarce
The purpouse was to limit capacity, to impose reload after each shot to balance the game.

Altough the best for immersion would be homemade one and m79 if there is no separate skill or devs would like to include also rocket launchers, grenades or other kind of ordnance.
_____
Other weapons that should be present:

*The Lariat - or another stunning weapon equivalent. In the past used for less then lethal dealing with population, contemporary for more convenient disposing of them... lethaly.

*Derringer - JB one from Highpool. Unwanted by heir, redundant for rangers... This little gun was bartered through many hands to finally make it's way int frozen Colorado.

*Machete - lawnmower blade based, inspired by Legion from NV.

*Improvised Cleaver - previous blade bigger cousin, present in W2

*Crowbar - Besides being low tier (or outside tiers) melee wepaon it could grant +to Brute force or safecracking. Simple yet vaulable.

*Crossbow is present in one screenshots - and it is superb idea. But maybe we could see Spear Gun as well?

*Old Navy Revolver - looked vintage in W2, altough it was too weak to keep it late-game

*Scoped Sharps - converted to cartridge, one shot, with long telescopic sight (looks vintage and badass - just google it). May be special weapon or quest reward. (getting too many non-generic weapons concerned toaster repair.) Will add some "Revenant" atmosphere - Yes I know they used only flintlock guns in that movie, but I can't get rid of that feeling that it would suit well in some savage tundra.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Drool » February 4th, 2017, 9:15 pm

sear wrote:There are some combat changes we're planning for the game over Wasteland 2, and while I don't know if that includes ammo types, some of what we are thinking about could help fill a similar utility.
Please take a good, hard look at WL2 armor and energy weapons. Both were poorly implemented.
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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Hefarius » February 5th, 2017, 4:25 am

Drool wrote:
sear wrote:There are some combat changes we're planning for the game over Wasteland 2, and while I don't know if that includes ammo types, some of what we are thinking about could help fill a similar utility.
Please take a good, hard look at WL2 armor and energy weapons. Both were poorly implemented.
Didn't they fix it in Director's Cut?

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by SagaDC » February 5th, 2017, 8:14 am

Hefarius wrote:Didn't they fix it in Director's Cut?
They changed the way they both worked, but they didn't really "fix" it.

Armor was tweaked to make it more useful overall - better than what it was in the vanilla release, but still very basic overall.

Energy Weapons were changed so that instead of their effectiveness being based on the Armor Value of the target, it was instead based on whether a target was "conductive" or not. A clever idea in theory, but one that ultimately made energy weapons even more of a niche weapon than they already were. Against conductive enemies they only did slightly more damage than a comparable non-energy weapon would do, and against non-conductive enemies they did severely reduced damage.

Conductive enemies were few and far between, with the vast majority of them being grouped in a single mid-game area (around Damonta), and once you got to California you almost completely stopped encountering them at all. It's been a while since I last played WL2:DC, but I can barely remember any end-game enemies that were conductive. Scorpitrons, perhaps.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by crimsoncorporation » February 6th, 2017, 6:35 am

SagaDC wrote: It's been a while since I last played WL2:DC, but I can barely remember any end-game enemies that were conductive. Scorpitrons, perhaps.
Basically all the robots are conductive, Dugan's bots for example or the Scorpitrons. Other than that only very few, that's true. Ultimately energy weapons aren't great, but can be used for debuffing. Final Assessment only takes 3 AP to fire, and some others have great range.

I like the idea of them and the concept that they are strong against good armor when other weapons are weaker, but there needs to be a different implementation.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Gabriel77Dan » February 6th, 2017, 7:18 am

I'd like to see a codex or something which we can get more lore about the setting from. I'd rather lore be told through other means than a simple codex as that's kinda lazy but WL2 felt lacking enough as it is when it came to lore so fuck it, I want a codex thingie which updates itself with new entries as we go along and helps detail the world around us.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by SagaDC » February 6th, 2017, 7:32 am

Gabriel77Dan wrote:I'd like to see a codex or something which we can get more lore about the setting from. I'd rather lore be told through other means than a simple codex as that's kinda lazy but WL2 felt lacking enough as it is when it came to lore so fuck it, I want a codex thingie which updates itself with new entries as we go along and helps detail the world around us.
I'd love to see more collectible lore in Wasteland 3.

One of the things that I commented on was how they literally hid lore from the average player. A lot of the in-game lore was locked behind the "Southwestern Folklore" skill, which was exclusive to Kickstarter backers. I know that was a necessary evil due to Kickstarter promises, but obviously we're not repeating the whole "exclusive skill" thing this time around.

Likewise, some fun lore was also hidden in odd places, like the description of Steam Cards. You could find lore entries about various enemies like the SlicerDicer, Discobot, and Nuke Pooches hidden on Steam, but that information never appeared anywhere in the actual game itself. :P

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by vv221 » February 7th, 2017, 12:59 am

SagaDC wrote:One of the things that I commented on was how they literally hid lore from the average player. A lot of the in-game lore was locked behind the "Southwestern Folklore" skill, which was exclusive to Kickstarter backers.
I hope inXile will eventually follow the nice example Failbetter Games gave them:
https://www.failbettergames.com/the-pir ... -for-free/

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by crimsoncorporation » February 7th, 2017, 4:56 am

One suggestion to make the world map experience more exciting:

It would be interesting to have a vision range (depending on your outdoor & perception skill for instance) in which you can see other parties (raiders and such) allowing you to actually physically dodge encounters instead of have a rather unimmersive random roll. In that regard squad speed would be an interesting parameter and could be partially tied to how much stuff your squad carries.

That creates a potential trade-off between being massively equipped for an anticipated fight or just wanting to explore and carrying out more diplomatic missions.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Hefarius » February 7th, 2017, 5:17 am

crimsoncorporation wrote:One suggestion to make the world map experience more exciting:

It would be interesting to have a vision range (depending on your outdoor & perception skill for instance) in which you can see other parties (raiders and such) allowing you to actually physically dodge encounters instead of have a rather unimmersive random roll. In that regard squad speed would be an interesting parameter and could be partially tied to how much stuff your squad carries.

That creates a potential trade-off between being massively equipped for an anticipated fight or just wanting to explore and carrying out more diplomatic missions.
Sounds like Mount and Blade. I belive dice rolls are preferrable.

As for hard choices - I thought about Canyon of Titan dilemma or "refugee crisis" from W3 Vision document (page 7) not choices liek helping Ag Center or Highpool. It was hard, yes, but it added imposed replayability factor.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by Gabriel77Dan » February 7th, 2017, 5:53 am

I'd prefer something like Mount And Blade.
I've never really liked being forced into combat when I'm just trying to get somewhere.
Travel speed would be determined by each members Outdoorsman, which would make it worthwhile to have duplicate skills.
Animal Whisperer would determine you chance of animal patrols not paying attention to your party.
Demolitions allow you to set up traps (that use up grenades or mines you have in your inventory) that enemy patrols walk into and get hurt by and slow them down for a bit.
Mechanical allows you to set up traps which will cause enemy patrols to come to a dead halt for a while.

Would help flesh out the skills a lot more if they made traveling a more interactive gameplay mechanic.

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Re: Just Suggestions

Post by undecaf » February 7th, 2017, 7:59 am

Hefarius wrote: I belive dice rolls are preferrable.
They are.

--------------------------

On a different note; W2 was pretty heavyhanded with its combat grind. A bit more non-combat gameplay opportunities (skill/stat uses on environment/NPC/items, random encounters, etc) would be welcome to balance out with the constant fighting.
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