Some thoughts on random encounters

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Gizmo
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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2018, 6:10 am

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 3:20 am
Long story short, his curiosity got the better of him, ignoring the warnings and the state of his worn down party, and recklessly jumped down the sacrificial chamber pit into the warm embrace of the blood cult priest on a much deeper (harder) area of Od Nua.. with expected FUN results :P
This is an assumption that is not the case. As mentioned the fights were not too difficult, until much much later, and after complete party exhaustion from having zero chance to rest. The problem—aside from the core flaw with the camping gear requirement, is that after several hours of play, there was suddenly no way to press forward, and no way to press backward, and no way to reload without a serious time loss. The party was worn down with no way to rest—despite having ample space and safety to recuperate; they eventually became unable to withstand assault; being whittled down to melee only, and a few hitpoints each. That killed interest in the game for me. There were no warning signs, and didn't need to be. They needed to be able to rest where plausible.

I don't want to see this same mistake made in WL3. It's bad design.

This never happened in any of the original Infinity engine games—of which I completed all of them.

*But others have seen to fixing it, they simply made a mod that strips out the limitation on the campfire mechanic (making it one hundred instead of four). With the mod, it effectively becomes unlimited (as it should be). Alas... I am not going to download a mystery .dll into my game; even if it's the only way. The patch I've seen is not data-only; it replaces the assembly-sharp library. Perhaps I'll patch it myself, and start over with a new party. The base game is wonderful, aside from its minor flaws. This could have been a non-issue for a simple check box to disable the camping gear mechanic.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Doni » February 27th, 2018, 9:10 am

Your party was worn down, but instead of going back or choosing a more prudent path forward, you took a reckless gamble and blindly jumped down a bottomless pit... FYI, Just as it is generally not a good idea to run toward the creepy music in a scary movie, so does crashing blood ritual and indulging the Blood priest by jumping down the sacrificial pit to meet their gods like a good lamb :roll:

Prior to that decision, you had a clear path to go back (as well as easier path to push forward, with exit on lvl3.) After that decision, you should have been able to easily ascertain (within seconds/minutes) that you bit more than you can chew (and reload) or reach the main exit down the hall.

So the problem is that (1) od Nua unique dungeon design, allowed low level player to make a bad decision, or didn't warned you enough about its perils (2) you forgot to save, made the wrong decision and didn't like the consequence. But I see nothing todo with camping supplies that I can add to our por/con list.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2018, 9:41 am

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 9:10 am
Your party was worn down, but instead of going back or choosing a more prudent path forward, you took a reckless gamble and blindly jumped down a bottomless pit... FYI, Just as it is generally not a good idea to run toward the creepy music in a scary movie, so does crashing blood ritual and indulging the Blood priest by jumping down the sacrificial pit to meet their gods like a good lamb :roll:
Another speculation. As I said above, it was descent down a stairwell, and after clearing the level, down another stairwell, and eventually needing to rest... and so returning up the stairs, and up the stairs again, and into a major conflict that I didn't knowingly pass on the way down. It's easy to walk out of the dungeon—but for the many enemies (some with paralysis or charm attacks) camped at the top of the stairs. If they were't there, the party could just walk out. If they could rest anywhere on the emptied levels below, they could fight their way out.

It's like the situation seen often in Diablo when the PC tries to retrieve their dropped gear from the hell/nightmare levels, but die instantly when exiting the stairs down... (only it's the reverse, my PCs die exiting the stair up).

The problem isn't the fight, it is that the party is not allowed to sit down and rest on the empty levels below, for the silly need of some twigs and a tinder-box.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Doni » February 27th, 2018, 10:24 am

That is irrelevant, the point is that its od Nua specific level design that allowed you to be thrust forward, get cutoff and disoriented not camping supplies, everywhere else could simply go back.

Although, i'd still say you made bad choice to push downward into the belly of the beast against stronger enemies. When I realized that I was cutoff with no way back, I immediately looked for way upward to secure my escape route.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Zombra » February 27th, 2018, 10:26 am

This is why you use multiple save slots, friends.
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Gizmo
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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2018, 10:57 am

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 10:24 am
That is irrelevant...
That is the most annoying use of the term; to tell someone else an opinion that their selected examples are irrelevant, when of course they don't think so.
Although, i'd still say you made bad choice to push downward into the belly of the beast against stronger enemies. When I realized that I was cutoff with no way back, I immediately looked for way upward to secure my escape route.
I didn't realize I was cut off until walking into the ambush... and it wouldn't have been a problem if not for the implausible camping gear requirement.

Again, my only concern is that we don't see something so contrived in WL3. It would be ridiculous if the party could wait for a week in place, and not recover.
Zombra wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 10:26 am
This is why you use multiple save slots, friends.
It's the best advice. I have several saves, but none going that far back, that I would choose to load. I will start again if I play it again. I quit for a while, in the hopes they would fix the map, but it doesn't look like it will happen, and if they did it once, they might have done it repeatedly. It could just happen again somewhere else. I will probably make the patch, or play the existing user patch on a purpose built offline system.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Drool » February 27th, 2018, 2:52 pm

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 3:20 am
Drool wrote:
February 26th, 2018, 2:48 pm
At least you could save the game without going back to the surface?
Yes, unless he played on iron man mode.
I was really just tweaking Bard's Tale 1, but...
Alwa nasci korliri das.

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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Doni » February 27th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Gizmo wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 10:57 am
That is the most annoying use of the term; to tell someone else an opinion that their selected examples are irrelevant, when of course they don't think so.
As entertaining the story about how you put your head in the noose and as enjoyable it is to poke you about something we all been through, what you did exactly is indeed irrelevant. All that matters is that you were teleported to a new location, and eventually was unable to leave the area, and what caused this.

You seem to argue that the issue is with camping supplies system, that if you could rest anywhere you'd be able to overcome your predicament. While I point to that specific dungeon, an expansive labyrinth that was designed to be experienced over the course of the whole game, with multiple levels and access points, and possibly the devs missed the possibility of what you did (miss the exist) as often is the case. A level design that can be easily avoided, that wasn't present anywhere else in PoE and iirc wouldn't be an issue anywhere in WL2.

Regardless, if you arguing for rest mechanic for WL3, your cause would be better served by outlining what its purpose would be, then we can see if there is a need to limited it to specific places, resources, or any other..

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Gizmo
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Re: Some thoughts on random encounters

Post by Gizmo » February 27th, 2018, 8:45 pm

Doni wrote:
February 27th, 2018, 6:13 pm
As entertaining the story about how you put your head in the noose and as enjoyable it is to poke you about something we all been through, what you did exactly is indeed irrelevant. All that matters is that you were teleported to a new location, and eventually was unable to leave the area, and what caused this.
This is (yet again), uninformed speculation. As I said it was an unexpected one way door—teleportation (if there was any, was a matter of traveling a few inches, and not being able to walk back. The party stayed on the same level. This was not diving into an area that was too advanced for the party. The party could be double the level of of their enemies, but they have single digit hitpoints and no special abilities... for not being able to rest.)
...if you arguing for rest mechanic for WL3, your cause would be better served by outlining what its purpose would be, then we can see if there is a need to limited it to specific places, resources, or any other..
The only expressed concern is that they don't demand a mess kit in order to rest. Restrictions on rest are fine, but when it is implausibly disallowed (and for a silly reason—or no reason) that becomes a frustration, and a credibility problem.

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