A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Gizmo
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Gizmo » February 18th, 2017, 2:28 am

By the looks of it, Fallout's Talking heads had more geometry than FO3's. :?

I liked Fallout's better, and would prefer that close dialog actually tax the platform as much as and open landscape with animated creatures.

I expected more like this, than like bob-the-builder.
Image I would love to see an LoD change once the view is close up; even if (or though) zooming in were not done seamlessly, and even if the [as would be expected] the regular combat/exploration model for the NPC looked like this guy:
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Simcc79 » April 10th, 2017, 10:02 pm

I kinda agree and disagree here hahaha.

Firstly I agree that the game should not punish you for things that you are not aware and cause you to lose the game. It's frustrating for new players to go into 20 hours just to restart and it will get boring very soon.

Secondly I disagree that WL2 have any game breaking moment even when you have the wrong set of skills however I do think that WL2 is kinda too combat focus. I do like games that have multiple ways of finishing it making it replayable so players should be given the option to play a high charismatic convincing character than end the game in a non violent method or a sneaky character that can trick other factions or people to commit your dirty work and finish off the boss even without getting you involve or a straight up tough guy that fights thru everything or a rich businessman than just simply buy off the boss etc or a tech savvy guy who just hack his way in and robotically kill the boss via turrets defence etc or medical character that can just poison anyone etc.

I personally like many choices to finish of the game so I can keep replaying kinda like in fallout 2. Only issue in fallout 2 is the oil rig that you have to fight that big guy and I didn't found any other way like sneak build pass it or convince him etc so I really hope that WL3 have at least a dozen ways to end the game so I can take my time to explore and replay it and that is what makes the players feel in love with the story and lore and making them hardcore fans. I believe this happen to f1 and f2 hence even Bethesda took over many players including me just wanna play to understand the story of the game

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Blindchance » April 18th, 2017, 5:51 am

LadyErica wrote:
January 26th, 2017, 1:27 pm
First of all, it's kinda vital to, if not tone down the number of skills avaliable, then at least let me know which ones are crucial for the late game, and which ones are more of a bonus. The number of skills avaliable in Wasteland 2 was just overwhelming
Some skills could be consolidated for example all x-ass skills could easily be a Speech skill as in Fallout, hopefully making room for something more interesting.

The problem with skills in W2 was not that you didn't know which one you need or that there are too many, but that many quests could NOT be resolved in multiple ways. Cannot arm these explosives ? Forget about recruiting this character. You don't have 22 charisma? Forget about recruiting that character. You don't have repair skill?! Lol you just missed out bro. Poor design if you ask me. As with many other RPGs you should have multiple options to resolve the same problem instead of locking content beyond one specific skill check.

Another problem was that while you could easily cover almost all if not all skills in your party as a new player you did not know your 3 in-game companions skills so often ended up training the same and missing others. Also companions stats were badly distributed even in the Director's Cut. The game lacked a respec option, let it be a Native American "juju" juice or a hidden temple.

Everything else you outlined is just a matter of opinion or expectations brought from AAA+ games. I personally like the world map even if it could be prettier. Don't forget InXile do not have Dragon Age: Origins or Mass Effect Andromeda budget.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Gizmo » April 18th, 2017, 7:55 am

Blindchance wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 5:51 am
The problem with skills in W2 was not that you didn't know which one you need or that there are too many, but that many quests could NOT be resolved in multiple ways. Cannot arm these explosives ? Forget about recruiting this character. You don't have 22 charisma? Forget about recruiting that character. You don't have repair skill?! Lol you just missed out bro. Poor design if you ask me. As with many other RPGs you should have multiple options to resolve the same problem instead of locking content beyond one specific skill check.
While I certainly agree with the initial point [of quests not not being resolvable in multiple ways], I do not see any of the reason/examples you give as a problem, or as something to be 'fixed'.

In an RPG I would expect, and even welcome locking content beyond one specific skill check... That's a point of having that skill. For instance in Fallout 2, that the player character cannot [know how to] pick the best brain for Skynet without a sufficient (and unusually developed) Science skill. Ideally there would be dozens of such checks each with private content behind them; available only to those specific PCs that are able to access those situations due to their nature and background.
The game lacked a respec option, let it be a Native American "juju" juice or a hidden temple.
A respec option is backstabbing for an RPG, and IMO should never ~ever be included in one. The insidious problem with respec is that it allows the PC to have succeeded in past situations & conversations, using skills and abilities that they might eventually never have had. :?
Ideally RPGs have binding commitments that shape the path of the PC. If the player feels the desperate need to respec their PC, then it is the path of the PC that needs fixing, not the addition of game upending respec options.

I would not want the developer spending their time supporting a respec option —over spending their time ensuring that the game needn't resort to offering one.
I personally like the world map even if it could be prettier. Don't forget InXile do not have Dragon Age: Origins or Mass Effect Andromeda budget.
A pretty world map is a great addition... but I would assume it to also be one of the easiest and cheapest features to add. It's a picture. Even if done with a 3D mesh, it's still usually a more or less top-down depiction of a map.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Manicotti Lion » April 18th, 2017, 7:31 pm

LadyErica wrote:
January 26th, 2017, 1:27 pm
First of all, it's kinda vital to, if not tone down the number of skills avaliable, then at least let me know which ones are crucial for the late game, and which ones are more of a bonus. The number of skills avaliable in Wasteland 2 was just overwhelming.
If anything they need to add a lot more skills to WL3. There simply weren't enough in 2. Every skill except for animal whispering had its uses throughout the game. The problem came in when you had a full party of 7 there were so many characters that doubled up on the same skill it made it largely irrelevant to have learned Computer Science to level 5 when someone else just comes along with it at level 8 and takes over doing all the computer work for the entire squad from then on.

Useless skills and items were a big problem in WL1 from what I remember (last played it in 2012, my memory is foggy) and you could have wasted a lot of time with a skill that was pretty useless, but inXile did a good job in WL2 making sure everything had a purpose during the whole game (except animal whisperer as I said, but it's kind of a fun role-playing skill if you want to be more of a pacifist with the wildlife, so it can be argued it's still useful, I just didn't care to have it). All the others could be used in some manner in pretty much every new town you come to, so I'd like to see more options in future games and maybe have enough so I have to think hard about which ones I want at the cost of others. As it was I had every skill pretty maxed by end game and was left with a lot of extra skill points with nothing worth spending them on.

The game being brown was a smart decision because you get so used to it being drab and then you're in for a shock in the second half the game when everything becomes green and lush. It's a great contrast and really makes it feel like two games in one. If Arizona had been more green that reveal would have had less impact.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Drool » April 19th, 2017, 12:06 pm

Blindchance wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 5:51 am
Some skills could be consolidated for example all x-ass skills could easily be a Speech skill as in Fallout, hopefully making room for something more interesting.
Honestly, if we want to take mechanics from the original, we could compress them into a single skill called Confidence. As much as the skill had a use in Wasteland, it largely covered talking to other people and swaying them to your point of view.

At the very least, change the names. I'm no prude, but the ass trio just feel... juvenile.

Manicotti Lion wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 7:31 pm
If anything they need to add a lot more skills to WL3.
Not with CLASSIC, they can't. Their mechanics hamper their skill pool. Every skill point in precious, so mistakes are major. With the original's learn-by-doing system, you could waste a skill point or two in a worthless skill, because your weapon skill would be going up by itself instead of requiring you to spend points on it.
Useless skills and items were a big problem in WL1 from what I remember (last played it in 2012, my memory is foggy) and you could have wasted a lot of time with a skill that was pretty useless
There were plenty of duplicate and useless skills, yes, but the penalty for wasting time/points on them were minimal. Wasting time on a skill in WL2 is like buying a bad car. Wasting points in the original was like buying a bad candy bar.
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Gizmo » April 19th, 2017, 2:08 pm

Drool wrote:
April 19th, 2017, 12:06 pm
At the very least, change the names. I'm no prude, but the ass trio just feel... juvenile.
Agreed.
Manicotti Lion wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 7:31 pm
If anything they need to add a lot more skills to WL3.
Not with CLASSIC, they can't. Their mechanics hamper their skill pool. Every skill point in precious, so mistakes are major.
Ideally there shouldn't be any mistakes [possible] by skill choice; only opened and closed doors because of it.

*Myself, I don't consider a skill with five use cases to be lesser than one with fifteen; and of those, I would consider it cheap if all five cases were unavoidably found, or necessary to take.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Manicotti Lion » April 23rd, 2017, 2:23 pm

Drool wrote:
April 19th, 2017, 12:06 pm
Manicotti Lion wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 7:31 pm
If anything they need to add a lot more skills to WL3.
Not with CLASSIC, they can't. Their mechanics hamper their skill pool. Every skill point in precious, so mistakes are major. With the original's learn-by-doing system, you could waste a skill point or two in a worthless skill, because your weapon skill would be going up by itself instead of requiring you to spend points on it.
I guess it just depends a lot on your builds. I wound up with 66 unused skill points on one of my characters by the end of the game and that was after she got 10s in a couple skills. I never spent them because I had everything covered in some way by someone else. Then again she was getting 6 SP per level with the delayed gratification quirk. With my guy who got only 3 SP per level it was tight to get him to learn just lock picking and safe cracking to level 10 in time. But even if I hadn't it wouldn't have been a big deal. I can't really think of an instance off hand where you will pay dearly for a mistake that you didn't put enough points in something.

What I would really like to see is to have the CLASSIC stats have more of a use in conversations like Fallout did. Like if you have 8 strength you get a dialog option that flexes your muscles to intimidate the person you're talking to, or really high intelligence lets you ask different questions. As it was I thought those attributes were a little wasted since they only governed stats and conversations were a little lacking.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by GodComplex » April 24th, 2017, 2:33 pm

I got the Mrs to play Fallout 2 a long time ago, and she expressed similar complaints. She was frustrated by the large amount of skills and not knowing what skills/stats would benefit her the most at the end game. The reality is that this genre isn't for everyone, you have to enjoy character building/planning and you have to be prepared to fail.

That said, I want more skills, and more skill points. As said upthread, when every skill point is precious, its hard to deviate from certain party configurations.
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Gizmo » April 24th, 2017, 5:35 pm

King's Bounty has a novel approach to skills; granted it's not really an RPG, but it IS one of the very few modern games to support character ethics. (after a fashion)
The army units all have their own skills —many unique. All of them have a morale level that shifts when they are content, neutral, or uncomfortable. The first and last of these states come with significant performance bonuses and penalties respectively. You might have a party of valiant heroes, and really like a the skills of a few fallen paladins... but including them into your group might bring down the rest of your army; especially the lesser tolerant individuals.

So too, they could organize it so that mixed party members with disparate priorities, training, interests —and ethics... would not play nice together, hand in hand on the same page, as it were. Think of the film Stargate, where the squad had Jack O'Neill, and Daniel Jackson; grim pragmatist active veteran —lifer, and optimist, archaeologist and linguist. Jack's job was to detonate the nuke, and he was fine with it... This should illustrate the seeds of conflict I'm describing.

Some characters could actively revile others on principle alone. [Sheriffs and thieves, academics and some kinds of infantry... Nerds & Jocks, for lack of a better example —but by no means the only example; I do mean that the contentions could exist by having four scientists that disagree with each others disciplines; one seen as laughable to another; and the concept of interfering with the other's performance... ala—too many cooks.]

Pairing these all into one common party could be made challenging indeed, and might come with accepting penalties for the duration of the team; but could also mean that the team has some rather unconventional options to it, because of its member composition.

It could be nice to have a mechanism for reducing those penalties over time, and shared experiences. Jack & Daniel became friends eventually... but Jack and Jonas were back to square one when Danial left the team and was replaced.

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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by undecaf » April 24th, 2017, 8:32 pm

GodComplex wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 2:33 pm
The reality is that this genre isn't for everyone, you have to enjoy character building/planning and you have to be prepared to fail.
The precise reason why the talks about streamlining the character systems and party management, and "snappifying" combat, make my skin crawl. Chances are (and it wouldn't be the first time) that all it leads to is something bland and uninteresting and overcompensated, that ultimately manages to disappointed and drive more people away than lure in or pleasantly surprise.
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by Drool » April 24th, 2017, 10:54 pm

undecaf wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 8:32 pm
Chances are (and it wouldn't be the first time) that all it leads to is something bland and uninteresting and overcompensated, that ultimately manages to disappointed and drive more people away than lure in or pleasantly surprise.
That said, not all streamlining is bad. Wasteland wouldn't have suffered for Bureaucracy or Alarm Disarm being removed. Hell, it could have even survived things like Forgery or Cryptography being removed (Cryptography could have been collapsed into Perception or IQ, for instance). To say nothing of Combat Shooting.

But, again, I think the key difference between Wasteland and WL2 or Fallout is the cost of mistakes being less crippling. Unless you just decided to make a Master Forger and put all your points into Forgery, you'd be okay. The game was plenty difficult even with perfect skill choice. Hexborgs didn't care about your skills, after all.
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Re: A couple of thoughts from a non-Wasteland fan

Post by undecaf » April 25th, 2017, 10:33 am

Drool wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 10:54 pm
undecaf wrote:
April 24th, 2017, 8:32 pm
Chances are (and it wouldn't be the first time) that all it leads to is something bland and uninteresting and overcompensated, that ultimately manages to disappointed and drive more people away than lure in or pleasantly surprise.
That said, not all streamlining is bad.
Oh, you are right. It's not so much a "universal evil", than it is just a misused tool. The term has its reputation, though (what are the odds that it will be used right?), it has that ominous ring to it; the bearer of bad news.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

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