"A Dumbening Shall Come"

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Zombra
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"A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Zombra » December 14th, 2016, 12:10 pm

Chris Keenan, Official XBox Magazine #145 Interview, 11-16-2016 wrote:"A turn-based combat system can sometimes slow things down unnecessarily. I think that was something that with Wasteland we could definitely improve on and make it feel a little more snappy. There's going to be less of a micro-management aspect with your party. In Wasteland 2 you tended to have seven party members with six or seven different weapon skills you could choose, and we're going to try and condense those down. We want to make sure that the focus is on the strategy of the combat, not on the micro-managing of your statistics in combat and the weapons."
Wow ... so what's going to be "condensed down"? A smaller party size? Fewer weapon skills? Fewer weapon types?

The guns in Wasteland 2 all succeeded in fulfilling different roles. Really I feel there need to be more weapon skills, not fewer. The AT Weapons skill should have been there all along for rocket launchers, and grenade use should have been governed by Demolitions.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you how I'd feel about a reduced party size.

Overall I'm very unhappy about this declaration that inXile doesn't want to bother the player's pretty little head with a bunch of decisions about character builds. Wasteland 2 hardly had the most complex stat system in RPG history. Simplifying it further will make Wasteland 3 barely a role-playing game.

I'll say it. This looks like a deliberate "dumbening" to increase mass appeal to console players, at the expense of classic RPG fans who appreciate choice and complexity. Note the source of the interview.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by SagaDC » December 14th, 2016, 1:35 pm

Well, I'll admit, that kind of quote from one of the developers is a little bit alarming. But I'm certainly not going to worry too much about it until I actually see how things work.

Of course, I'll be much more vocal about my concerns once I can actually get my hands on the eventual early-access version of the game in another year or so. :P

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Woolfe » December 14th, 2016, 3:07 pm

Yes I thought part of the reason people came to the party on these kickstarters was the old school gameplay. Things like micromanagement.

Which by the way, is very bloody subjective. One persons opinion of micro management is different to another persons.

This doesn't bode well at the moment.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Dork Mage » December 14th, 2016, 6:55 pm

SagaDC wrote:Of course, I'll be much more vocal about my concerns once I can actually get my hands on the eventual early-access version of the game in another year or so. :P
Though by Beta it will be too late for any real change.

Better hammer now on what this means.

Just don't expect too much as investors have $2.5 million in the game while players have $600 thousand. Ultimately, what is believed to be best for investors will win.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by SagaDC » December 14th, 2016, 7:08 pm

Dork Mage wrote:Though by Beta it will be too late for any real change.
That's why I pledged just high enough to get Alpha access!
Dork Mage wrote:Just don't expect too much as investors have $2.5 million in the game while players have $600 thousand. Ultimately, what is believed to be best for investors will win.
But... yeah, this is the unfortunate truth of the matter.

In regards to the streamlining process, it's hard for me to really comment much on it without knowing specifics. If they're reducing the number of characters in the party, then obviously that's a bit disappointing. I thought seven worked out pretty well. Though, given that we'll now also have a slot for a vehicle, that could very well change the dynamic somewhat.

In regards to streamlining the weapon skills, it's also hard for me to comment without knowing specifics. In Wasteland 2, they definitely struggled to try to balance out all the weapon categories, and in the end Assault Rifles beat out pretty much everything else while Energy Weapons and Shotguns were the bottom of the barrel. I'd rather see them do a better job of balancing out all the categories this time, but I don't know if I'd be all that upset if they decided to streamline the number of weapon skills instead.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by undecaf » December 14th, 2016, 10:47 pm

Hmm... Here I thought the game and charactersystems needed to be made more complex and robust in that way, not the opposite.

Guess the new "wider" audience requires these sorts of mitigative moves to be able to cope with a slow and confusing game like this.

So what's to be expected with this move? Smaller party, less skills and nuXCOM combat?

Not sounding too promising, that.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by SagaDC » December 14th, 2016, 11:16 pm

I will admit to being disappointed that there were several "micromanagement" elements that got cut out of Wasteland 2. The three-part armor system, different ammo types, the various non-combat skills like salvaging and bullet swaging. All of those were things that I thought could have added more depth to the game.

To be honest, I was kind of hoping that stuff like that would be making it into Wasteland 3.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Grohal » December 15th, 2016, 4:04 am

SagaDC wrote:I will admit to being disappointed that there were several "micromanagement" elements that got cut out of Wasteland 2. The three-part armor system, different ammo types, the various non-combat skills like salvaging and bullet swaging. All of those were things that I thought could have added more depth to the game.

To be honest, I was kind of hoping that stuff like that would be making it into Wasteland 3.
I found a video from the 3 part armor when in was still in WL2, this and also the different ammo types were sorely missed by me too. Guess you don't need AP bullets if you have one weapon type specially for hard armored targets (energy) or RPG and grenades which just seem to ignore armor.
I already wrote in another threat that the combat was already quite a labor, because most battles were pure boredom and we need MORE possibilites not less to pull of the victory. I really lack imagination here to see how this could be dumbed down further...
So I hope they just want to make combat faster, but also more challenging with more skills that make a difference between trained ranger and riff-raff gang members with superior numbers.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by JoniOdin » January 8th, 2017, 5:00 am

I didn't know that quote until just reading it here, but I fully agree with the Zombra: people play Wasteland for old-school gameplay and a rich skill system, not for "not having to worry about micro-managing skills".
I'm really astonished where anybody at inXile would get that idea from.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by kilobug » January 8th, 2017, 6:12 am

I'm uncertain about "less micromanagement", it all depends what they do and how - I definitely don't want less skills and equipment options (I'm not fond of amno type, but more armor/equipment slots in WL2 would have been appreciated), but on the other hand, there are some micromanagement things that I would gladly get rid of - like having the party auto-reload all weapons at the end of a combat (if amno are available, of course), or being able to use the best "weaponsmith" skill directly on the inventory page of any party member, no need to transfer the weapon to the inventory of the smith, then add the add-on, then transfer back the weapon.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Zombra » January 8th, 2017, 10:51 am

kilobug wrote:There are some micromanagement things that I would gladly get rid of - like having the party auto-reload all weapons at the end of a combat (if amno are available, of course), or being able to use the best "weaponsmith" skill directly on the inventory page of any party member, no need to transfer the weapon to the inventory of the smith, then add the add-on, then transfer back the weapon.
All good ideas. I think it's important to recognize the difference between streamlining the game system and the user interface. Everything you mentioned comes down to automation of the interface, so we don't have to click a bunch of extra buttons or go through several screens to get things done. Chris is talking about removing things so we don't have to click them. :( Big difference.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Talien » January 12th, 2017, 11:22 am

If "condensing" means Fallout style weapon skills (small guns, big guns, energy weapons, explosives) then I'm all for it. Maybe then I might get some use out of handguns and SMGs, like using them in random encounters when I'm faced with a bunch of creatures or melee using Raiders where I can burn some of that .38 or 9mm instead of using my AR ammo.

If it means less options altogether for equipment, skills, and party members then not so much. I want MORE options for dealing with a given situation, not less.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Zaptoman » January 12th, 2017, 2:50 pm

I'll say it. This looks like a deliberate "dumbening" to increase mass appeal to console players, at the expense of classic RPG fans who appreciate choice and complexity. Note the source of the interview.
Where is Brother None on this one? Geez Louise. The reason I helped fund Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Torment...was because they were going back to the way games used to be. IE in-depth roleplaying, PARTY MANAGEMENT, et all. inXile needs to wake up. I really don't want to start hating them like I hate Todd Whatshisnuts over at Bethesda. Ugh.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by marceror » January 14th, 2017, 5:37 pm

Dude, what in the hell is wrong with inXile? I wish they'd stop trying to fix things aren't broken, because, surely they are going to break those things!

Gun selection in Wasteland 2, was good, but fairly middle of the road. Good GOD, it does not need to be reduced!!

Weapon skills? They worked with the guns, and the same thinking applies.

7 squad members? The perfect squad size, which is also absolutely part and parcel to the Wasteland series and an absolute expectation for this title (an expectation that I have little hope will be met).

inXile, please, wake the F**K up; get your heads out of your collective assess, and make a proper Wasteland sequel where, if you're doing anything, you're making the experience richer and deeper, not dumbing it down. I say this as lovingly and supportively as I possibly can.

Soooo glad my pledge for this game really no more than a token pledge. I could smell the lost sense of purpose from the outset of the Fig campaign. Of course, it's still too early to make any final judgements, but as we can only judge based on what inXile chooses to share, my impressions and reactions are colored accordingly.

/highly concerned for this Dev, and this game

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by undecaf » January 18th, 2017, 1:39 am

The haven't been feeling too talkative about this game, not even during the give-us-your-money-phase.

Someone out there could of course make a brief comment on approximately what's going on with this, where are they trying to go, but nah. Suppose we'll learn in a year or two.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Grohal » January 18th, 2017, 2:58 am

Let us just hope we get more regular updates for WL3 than for BT4.

They are still pre-production or not far in I guess. I give this 2 or 3 months after Torment release, but then I would want to know where this is heading. :)
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by SagaDC » January 18th, 2017, 8:15 am

Honestly, it's so early in the pre-development phase that I think it's premature for them to make any official announcement in regards to promised features or mechanics. They're probably discussing a lot of those sorts of things behind the scenes, and won't actually comment on them until they decide exactly what they want to do.

Yes, the Fig campaign was a bit lacking in solid information. I get the impression that a lot of the finer details are still in the conceptual stage, and they're essentially putting out feelers while they decide on what they want to do with WL3.

And yes, there do seem to be a few general indications that they're "streamlining" certain elements of the game, perhaps with the intent of making the game more accessible to the casual audience. I do find that somewhat disappointing, though I wouldn't find it terribly surprising given how Wasteland 2 evolved during it's development process.

It's certainly a good idea to voice concerns early and often, if you have any. But complaining that InXile isn't giving an official response is a bit silly.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by paultakeda » January 18th, 2017, 9:36 am

Conversely, it is early enough in development that stating unequivocally that what Keenan said is alarming to those of us that want old school RPG mechanics. Micro management is not only subjective, it is selective.

Do I want to manage my inventory, moving crap around tiles just to make stuff fit? No. I don't care if it doesn't seem immersive, but frankly all I need are encumbrance ratings for every single item held against a character total. Locking items to characters but allow other inventory to be "pooled" is fine, too.

But do I want to manage my squad's kit down to what helmet, chest, leg, arm, hand and foot bit they wear, along with what they hold in their left and right hand, what they can carry on their back as a secondary? Yes.

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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by undecaf » January 18th, 2017, 11:41 am

SagaDC wrote:Honestly, it's so early in the pre-development phase that I think it's premature for them to make any official announcement in regards to promised features or mechanics.
Of course. I don't suggest them to lay out their plans and start an extensive back and forth between a handful of people in a halfdead forum, but if the time is right to make implications on streamlining that clearly causes concern, I would suspect there's room to put a bit of solid ground under those implications at least in a similiar manner as that party creation debacle. But if that's not the case, then so be it, nobody's going to die from lack of information.
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Re: "A Dumbening Shall Come"

Post by Brother None » January 19th, 2017, 8:52 am

SagaDC wrote:Honestly, it's so early in the pre-development phase that I think it's premature for them to make any official announcement in regards to promised features or mechanics. They're probably discussing a lot of those sorts of things behind the scenes, and won't actually comment on them until they decide exactly what they want to do.
That is correct, it is too early to talk specifics. But we are reading and taking this feedback on board!
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