Seven Character Party (4+3)

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 5787
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Zombra » April 20th, 2017, 10:23 pm

I am completely fine with AI companions as long as they are reasonably conservative and not suicidal morons. Unless an NPC's whole concept is that he is a suicidal moron.
Image

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8837
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Drool » April 20th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Crosmando wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 12:36 pm
I fear that this is less about the console crowd and more about the Fallout crowd.
Some, yeah, because it infects everything around here. That said, I think WL2 did a good enough job with porting the original mechanic on over when it came to NPCs.

I mean, who didn't have Christine waste a whole clip of ammo to kill some scrub enemy?
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 5787
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Zombra » April 20th, 2017, 11:08 pm

Drool wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 10:55 pm
I mean, who didn't have Christine waste a whole clip of ammo to kill some scrub enemy?

Image
Image

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Remo » May 5th, 2017, 3:56 pm

Blindchance wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 11:13 am
Higher number of party members means more tactics involved in combat and (hopefully) more companion related content (missions/interactions etc.) so obviously I support keeping that number as high as possible.
More is not always better. I prefer small unit tactics in such games, because having a platoon at your side often makes wildlife and smaller encounters irrelevant and a chore to handle **; While bigger encounters are often turned into zerg rush of buffed up targets. Also I didn't really care for W2 companions. They seemed like skill fodder, to be honest.

Anyway, I like the balance they achieved in W2, there were few really well thought out map, better than dedicated tactical game I played. But before making my mind about W3, I need to see how the new mechanics will come into play like those vehicle mounted weapons..

** Btw, I noticed that they are going to copy the Xcom camera, I hope they are going to copy some other elements to streamline the combat. Like the ability to hit Tab to skip to the next person mid action.

undecaf wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 9:35 pm
About AI controlled partymembers... I think it was a good compromise to have cNPC's go rogue at times. That still allowed them to have a bit of character of their own rather than to be complete and utter puppets of the player. That's what I liked about the AI controlled partymembers of Fallout.
I like that mechanic, it made sense and added more value to Charisma\Leadership combo (which many meta gamers used as dump stats).

User avatar
paultakeda
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2695
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 2:47 pm
Location: AAAAAARGH!

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by paultakeda » May 5th, 2017, 10:07 pm

Drool wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 10:55 pm
That said, I think WL2 did a good enough job with porting the original mechanic on over when it came to NPCs.
I'm not as convinced. d100 (percentage) and turn-based more or less made it a squad-based Fallout game for me, combat-wise.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8837
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Drool » May 5th, 2017, 10:32 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 5th, 2017, 10:07 pm
I'm not as convinced. d100 (percentage) and turn-based more or less made it a squad-based Fallout game for me, combat-wise.
Well, yes. But with the caveat of the other mechanics changes, it was a passable system.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
paultakeda
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2695
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 2:47 pm
Location: AAAAAARGH!

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by paultakeda » May 6th, 2017, 8:48 am

Drool wrote:
May 5th, 2017, 10:32 pm
paultakeda wrote:
May 5th, 2017, 10:07 pm
I'm not as convinced. d100 (percentage) and turn-based more or less made it a squad-based Fallout game for me, combat-wise.
Well, yes. But with the caveat of the other mechanics changes, it was a passable system.
I don't want passable. I want epic double roll chains to allow for the smallest chance to succeed, not 0%/impossible. Pretty sure that ship has passed, but I'll just keep grumbling about it on the pier.

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Remo » May 8th, 2017, 12:15 am

I wonder how the new multiplayer mechanic will effect this. They seem to be aiming at coop type of multiplayer i.e. allow two players to play simultaneously. Double the players double the rangers, thus either MP will have different team rules or we get bigger teams/maps in SP.

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Gizmo » May 8th, 2017, 1:32 am

undecaf wrote:
April 20th, 2017, 9:35 pm
About AI controlled partymembers... I think it was a good compromise to have cNPC's go rogue at times. That still allowed them to have a bit of character of their own rather than to be complete and utter puppets of the player. That's what I liked about the AI controlled partymembers of Fallout.
I always thought of tag-along NPCs as characters who could be untrained loose cannons, but if they had a military background, could perhaps keep their head, and take orders in combat. Perhaps even have this be dependent upon a PC stat, or skill. In Fallout it always bothered me that once you got the Brotherhood [help] squad, it felt for a moment like you had a military team —until you realized that they only helped at the door, and were then useless. I thought of it as a missed opportunity not to have them under player control; or at least follow along with the PC for more than two minutes.

What I dislike about AI controlled characters is that they don't play along with the plan. In the Gold-Box games, you could make an invisible party, and intend to walk past a tough fight... and the NPCs would ruin it by starting a fight. I never play BG1 or 2 with AI control activated.

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 387
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by undecaf » May 9th, 2017, 11:36 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 8th, 2017, 1:32 am
What I dislike about AI controlled characters is that they don't play along with the plan.
That's precisely the reason why I like them. That they do not necessarily follow "the plan". In Fallout or Wasteland (2), beyond your created squad, it wasn't about a highly disciplined militaryteam trained in squad tactics, but a rag tag of different, more and less combat-suitable personalities that are not hired guns, but someones who just agreed to tag along to help for what ever motivation. When they goofed up through the AI, I considered it a human error on the characters part; and for better or worse, I had to adapt to the ever living situation that I was never in complete control of. That gave a very special highlight on the created character(s) and made the combat situations and the cNPC's feel more alive and dynamic. I couldn't think of, say, Fallout 2 with full control of the party; that would change the feel of the whole game (and not necessarily for the better - how would it fit the picture if Vic acted like a trained commando under my control - for example).
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Gizmo » May 10th, 2017, 10:42 am

undecaf wrote:
May 9th, 2017, 11:36 pm
That's precisely the reason why I like them. That they do not necessarily follow "the plan".
That's why I like it too... except that it doesn't always make sense (for the NPC; especially the ones that are independent, but not crazy). That fight I was talking about could be some VERY tough opponents, when the party is averaging 3 hitpoints left for each, and they have a way to escape with their lives...

The NPC experience you (and I) are considering is a bit like Spence in the movie Ronin; as opposed to Vincent, and it's good, but it would be better IMO if the pNPC ai evaluated the situation a bit more intelligently before it chose to act; [this could still be influenced by stats, skill confidence, and personality quirks].

In King's Bounty series, and Fallout 2 (I think), the enemies could choose to run from an overwhelming PC —in KB the designers had the foresight to make this happen before combat ensued, rather than after. I think I'd prefer NPCs done the way WL2 had them; to go rogue at times of stress, but I'd prefer that the odds be dynamic to the situation*, such that going rogue is less often going suicidal —unless that's a character trait.

*pNPCs sensing an invisible party and enemies with 20 times their own hitpoints, should get the hint and tend to avoid a solo frontal assault. Image

An aside: What would your opinion be if pNPCs could arbitrarily initiate combat at will? (While sneaking, while resting; while bartering...)
Last edited by Gizmo on August 17th, 2017, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 387
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by undecaf » May 10th, 2017, 11:39 am

Gizmo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 10:42 am
undecaf wrote:
May 9th, 2017, 11:36 pm
That's precisely the reason why I like them. That they do not necessarily follow "the plan".
That's why I like it to... except that it doesn't always make sense (for the NPC; especially the ones that are independent, but not crazy). That fight I was talking about could be some VERY tough opponents, when the party is averaging 3 hitpoints left for each, and they have a way to escape with their lives...

The NPC experience you (and I) are considering is a bit like Spence in the movie Ronin; as opposed to Vincent, and it's good, but it would be better IMO if the pNPC ai evaluated the situation a bit more intelligently before it chose to act; [this could still be influenced by stats, skill confidence, and personality quirks].

In King's Bounty series, and Fallout 2 (I think), the enemies could choose to run from an overwhelming PC —in KB the designers had the foresight to make this happen before combat ensued, rather than after. I think I'd prefer NPCs done the way WL2 had them; to go rogue at times of stress, but I'd prefer that the odds be dynamic to the situation*, such that going rogue is less often going suicidal —unless that's a character trait.

*pNPCs sensing an invisible party and enemies with 20 times their own hitpoints, should get the hint and tend to avoid a solo frontal assault. Image
Yeah, Fallout 2 had that. Lower enough level enemies would flee from combat past the edge of the screen and companions would chase and kill them unless the player would leave the area.

I'd like if all the characters (even animals) had a "morale" stat where they would have a sense of selfpreservance. Both, under overwhelming odds, and also when severely wounded (in Fallout 2 wounded cNPC's would try to flee from combat). Now that I think about it, I'd actually hope the PC's would also be affected by a morale stat, and that would need to be managed (drugs might become quite a bit more useful; and dangerous).
Gizmo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 10:42 am
An aside: What would your opinion be if pNPCs could arbitrarily initiate combat at will? (While sneaking, while resting; while bartering...)
As a concept, I've no qualms about it. It could be a fun way of keeping the player on his toes... It is something to be pretty careful with, though. On how often and at what conditions it happens, what the player can do about it (if anything but endure), and what's the payoff for risking such volatile characters around. And so on. Might well be interesting.

A bit of a tangent, but it kind of reminds me of how in Dungeon Keeper some the minions would start fighting eachother if not kept away from eachother, it was a nuisance, but a fun one at that.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Gizmo » May 10th, 2017, 12:02 pm

undecaf wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 11:39 am
A bit of a tangent, but it kind of reminds me of how in Dungeon Keeper some the minions would start fighting eachother if not kept away from eachother, it was a nuisance, but a fun one at that.
The Reaper [was the best & worst of them]. You basically had to build him a separate apartment with its own food, gold, and training room; and permanently lock the door...to keep him from killing your own minions. But when set loose, he'd happily tear up enemy mobs 10:1.

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 387
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by undecaf » May 10th, 2017, 12:26 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 12:02 pm
undecaf wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 11:39 am
A bit of a tangent, but it kind of reminds me of how in Dungeon Keeper some the minions would start fighting eachother if not kept away from eachother, it was a nuisance, but a fun one at that.
The Reaper [was the best & worst of them]. You basically had to build him a separate apartment with its own food, gold, and training room; and permanently lock the door...to keep him from killing your own minions. But when set loose, he'd happily tear up enemy mobs 10:1.
Yeah, I remember that. There was more, though. Bile demons and skeletons would fight eachother if not kept separate, so would spiders and flies, vampires and mistresses(?). Was there more...?

Now that this came up; it'd be cool if the WL3 would also have the dynamic to allow critter and NPC in-world fights independent of the player (similiar to Fallouts encounters like that). That's nothing to do with partysize, though, so I'll leave this at that.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Gizmo » May 10th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Hmmm... How about meaning that random encounters spawn from a list, and that a few of the possible enemies might hate one another more than the Ranger Party; and get to fighting if not accosted by the player.

Fallout 2 had the mechanic that the Outdoorman skill could situate the PC at the edge of combat, instead of in the middle and surrounded. Perhaps similar could be done for the Rangers, and result in them not being attacked first, when other (hated) enemies were closer.

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 387
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by undecaf » May 10th, 2017, 1:12 pm

That - the Fallout 2 example - is basically what I meant (<farmers fending off a pack of wolves>, <press gang fighting hubologists>; that sort of thing), though if the are maps in WL3 are as big as in WL2, it needn't be just random encounters. Perhaps something unexpected like a pack of wandering critters fighting another, some NPC's or even interfering with an on going fight with the player involved (not decidedly siding with anyone, but choosing whom to attack based on proximity or simply random chance), and such.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Remo » May 10th, 2017, 4:32 pm

undecaf wrote:
May 9th, 2017, 11:36 pm
That's precisely the reason why I like them. That they do not necessarily follow "the plan". In Fallout or Wasteland (2), beyond your created squad, it wasn't about a highly disciplined militaryteam trained in squad tactics, but a rag tag of different, more and less combat-suitable personalities that are not hired guns, but someones who just agreed to tag along to help for what ever motivation. When they goofed up through the AI, I considered it a human error on the characters part; and for better or worse, I had to adapt to the ever living situation that I was never in complete control of.
Exactly, this mechanic both adds to gameplay and lends well to Wl2 party concept in a realistic, simple and intuitive way.

It adds bits of unpredictable randomness that occasional might force you to switching up on your tactics. Without taking ultimate control of the situation from the player (offering more tactical freedom than Fallout companions for example) and allows you to take steps to prevent it (avoiding pure dumb luck aka fucked by RNG).

IMO in W2, the main weakness of this mechanic was that it wasn't balanced well, allowing people to simply ignore it.
Gizmo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 10:42 am
That's why I like it to... except that it doesn't always make sense
To be fair, have you ever encounter a tactical AI that [s]you couldn't outwit[/s] didn't left you frustrated in a difficult situation? because if you get past that, it is really easy to RP some human motivation into that scenario that would make sense. Every played DF ?

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3007
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Gizmo » May 10th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Remo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 4:32 pm
To be fair, have you ever encounter a tactical AI that [s]you couldn't outwit[/s] didn't left you frustrated in a difficult situation? because if you get past that, it is really easy to RP some human motivation into that scenario that would make sense. Every played DF ?
It's a silliness. There is a difference between one who can follow a plan —but chooses not to, and one who cannot follow a thought from one breath to the next. That kind of NPC is certifiable (in the "not possible to survive on their own for a week" sort of way). These scenarios might see the NPC join up because they want something, but then they make choices that actively destroy their own chance of success. It damages roleplaying when the NPC is presented as a capable independent operator during dialog, but is a pepper-sprayed bull in a china shop during combat. There can certainly be characters that act exactly like that —because they are crazy, and the player hasn't found out yet... but every single NPC in the game should not act like that.

In my earlier [fantasy setting] example , the PCs acquire expensive means of invisibility, and use it on all party members... then the NPC ruins it by engaging the enemy at first sight; (ignoring the point of gathering together for the invisibility effect). This is something the party would presumably have talked about, and pre-agreed to not ruin by direct combat. The result when the NPC just runs off to fight anyway is a waste of the player's time and in game money, and they probably just let the NPC get killed, and be done with them. For many this means no more NPCs.

Now in that example I would not expect to have control over the NPC, but I would like to hope that the odds of them ruining their own advantages would tend to be kind of low. I can still see them not making it all the way across to the other side of the field without lashing out at an enemy that came within reach, but to charge heedless into combat at first sight —is lunacy, and something you'd expect of an untrained hound, not someone who can converse with you prior; or especially one who has a backstory that implies intelligence, or tactical training.

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 387
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by undecaf » May 11th, 2017, 10:50 am

Remo wrote:
May 10th, 2017, 4:32 pm

IMO in W2, the main weakness of this mechanic was that it wasn't balanced well, allowing people to simply ignore it.
Yeah, it could've used a bit more versatility and character. I don't remember anyone ever fleeing, for example. WL3 oughta improve on this.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Javaman
Initiate
Posts: 5
Joined: June 3rd, 2012, 3:17 pm

Re: Seven Character Party (4+3)

Post by Javaman » June 26th, 2017, 2:30 am

Speaking purely as a consumer (i.e., I have NO idea how difficult this would be to implement,) I'd like a system where 4+3 was possible, but where I had the option of only creating 1 or 2 original characters and could fill the remaining slots with Character NPCs, resulting in a 2+5 or 1+6 split. I'm not looking for a "Chosen One" scenario, but I do like having the option of grabbing up as many NPCs with backstory and personality as possible.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests