Really Disappointed

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Drool
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Drool » July 4th, 2017, 9:05 pm

Remo wrote:
July 4th, 2017, 3:35 am
So basically anyone can choose to play this game as a "chosen one game" by designating his favorite character as his primary and electing not let him/her die.
Yes. But that's rather different than the game forcing it.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Remo » July 9th, 2017, 9:20 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 4th, 2017, 6:58 pm
It won't, and I have no problem with companions being slightly more fleshed out. I do have a problem with the idea of the series shifting focus from player-created PCs with funny sidekicks to deep stories about fascinating companions and oh yeah your PCs are there too.
That wasn't what I had in mind, different games have different focuses e.g. Wasteland vs Numenera. I just feel that the party interaction in WL2 were lacking, and there are some cheaper tricks we seen before to fill in the gap.
Drool wrote:
July 4th, 2017, 9:05 pm
Remo wrote:
July 4th, 2017, 3:35 am
So basically anyone can choose to play this game as a "chosen one game" by designating his favorite character as his primary and electing not let him/her die.
Yes. But that's rather different than the game forcing it.
ofcourse.

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Zombra » July 9th, 2017, 9:46 pm

Remo wrote:
July 9th, 2017, 9:20 pm
I just feel that the party interaction in WL2 were lacking, and there are some cheaper tricks we seen before to fill in the gap.
I have no problem with that.

One companion interaction I always remember was with Magnus the dwarf in Arcanum. He was a solid, lawful guy. If he was with your party when you encountered the necromancers, he flipped out. He got very angry if you dealt with them in a friendly way, even to the point of attacking you if you allied with them. That was great.

And you know, as I typed that above I realized that that is the mark of a good companion NPC: not that he has a fascinating backstory or a personal quest that you can pursue. That's backwards. A good companion should react to the situation around him, observe your actions and respond to you. That way your PCs are still the stars of the show, but the companions become believable and it makes you care more about your own actions.

And like I'm always saying, if you're doing stuff your companions have no reason to care about, they should leave the party. They should always be disposable, if nothing else to make room for more NPCs that appear later in the game. Once I had Ralphy, Pizepi, and Chisel in my group in WL2 (and particularly after I started building them to fill the holes in my party skill sets), there was no reason to recruit Cain, Lexcanium, Brother Thomas, or the rest. I'm sure they had some great scenes and lines, but with no reason to shitcan my friends, why would I want to hire anyone else? But what if Chisel stayed with the Scorpions after the truce was established? What if Pizepi's mutant physiology began to react to too much sunlight and she was forced to stay inside at the Cali Ranger base? What if Lexcanium had to destroy himself to stop the Children of the Citadel from taking over his cyborg brain? This would both make their stories more interesting and give the player some room to try other NPCs without having to bench their friends for no reason.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Gizmo » July 9th, 2017, 11:31 pm

This happened in the Baldur's Gate series; often. If you had Kagan in your party he would grumble insults every time you were generous with others, or declined payment (his too after all). I think Minsc, and the others would get uncomfortable, eventually to the point of leaving, based on the resulting negative reputation of the player's dialog choices. Some could also get on each other's nerves; to the point of violence, and splitting up the party.
Last edited by Gizmo on July 13th, 2017, 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Remo » July 13th, 2017, 12:56 am

That is more in line of what I was thinking, starting with a little banter. Also why didn't they used quirks for NPCs? Speaking for quirks, it was such a hit and miss feature.. During char creation it had a fantastic feel (I love the spoky art style) but throughout gameplay i didn't feel (or notice) its effect so much.. so on my second playthrough I just picked 'Delayed Gratification' for all

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by paultakeda » July 13th, 2017, 11:19 am

Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:56 am
That is more in line of what I was thinking, starting with a little banter. Also why didn't they used quirks for NPCs? Speaking for quirks, it was such a hit and miss feature.. During char creation it had a fantastic feel (I love the spoky art style) but throughout gameplay i didn't feel (or notice) its effect so much.. so on my second playthrough I just picked 'Delayed Gratification' for all
I'd just sooner not have quirks at all.

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Zombra » July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:56 am
Also why didn't they used quirks for NPCs?
Good decision, I thought. First, they would have had to redesign all the companions as the initial release didn't have Quirks at all. Second, and more importantly, they made my created PCs more special and interesting. My Thick-Skinned melee guy was a freak of nature, different from every other character in the world, but if a bunch of the NPCs also had the Quirk, it would have been just another check box on the character sheet, you know?

I think Quirks were great, and it was great that only my PCs could have them if I chose, and I definitely did see the effects in my playthrough. Maybe not perfectly balanced to be unexpoitable by powergamers, but ... fuck powergamers, they'll break every good RPG anyway.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by sear » July 13th, 2017, 3:56 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm
Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:56 am
Also why didn't they used quirks for NPCs?
Good decision, I thought. First, they would have had to redesign all the companions as the initial release didn't have Quirks at all. Second, and more importantly, they made my created PCs more special and interesting. My Thick-Skinned melee guy was a freak of nature, different from every other character in the world, but if a bunch of the NPCs also had the Quirk, it would have been just another check box on the character sheet, you know?

I think Quirks were great, and it was great that only my PCs could have them if I chose, and I definitely did see the effects in my playthrough. Maybe not perfectly balanced to be unexpoitable by powergamers, but ... fuck powergamers, they'll break every good RPG anyway.
This was the main reason we didn't have them on CNPCs in the Director's Cut. We felt it'd potentially be annoying if you had to put up with a specific Quirk on a character you otherwise really liked, and we weren't able to squeeze in unique ones for each CNPC.

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Remo » July 13th, 2017, 7:03 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm
My Thick-Skinned melee guy was a freak of nature, different from every other character in the world, but if a bunch of the NPCs also had the Quirk, it would have been just another check box on the character sheet, you know?
As you said before, this isn't a chosen one type of game but one focused on the team. And NPCs are pretty much part of the the team, but as it were they felt pretty much like stat fodder to your team skill sheet :|
Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm
I definitely did see the effects in my playthrough. Maybe not perfectly balanced to be unexpoitable by powergamers, but ... fuck powergamers, they'll break every good RPG anyway.
That wasn't my experience, on my first play through I picked quirks for pure RP reasons But I never seen, felt or recall being reminded of their existence, in fact I all but completely forgot about them for most of the game (btw where was they mentioned on the character sheet anyway? I can't recall. And were any mentions of its effects in the side log or anywhere else? )

I suppose others experience might be different if they picked some of the more flashy quirks like the Unlucky or the animal whisperer.

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Zombra » July 13th, 2017, 11:37 pm

Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 7:03 pm
As you said before, this isn't a chosen one type of game but one focused on the team. And NPCs are pretty much part of the the team
Aargh! My own words come back to bite me!

Good observation, but I'm not being inconsistent. I have always advocated for player-built PCs as being a different (superior!) thing from companion NPCs.
Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 7:03 pm
As it were [companions] felt pretty much like stat fodder to your team skill sheet :|
Fortunately for me, I didn't feel that way. I enjoyed the personalities of my companions! and felt they enriched the story of my team. (But I never thought of them as "fellow protagonists".)
Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm
I definitely did see the effects in my playthrough.
That wasn't my experience, on my first play through I picked quirks for pure RP reasons But I never seen, felt or recall being reminded of their existence, in fact I all but completely forgot about them for most of the game (btw where was they mentioned on the character sheet anyway? I can't recall. And were any mentions of its effects in the side log or anywhere else? )
In case you're interested, I picked Quirks for RP-ish reasons, not based on the Quirk descriptions (e.g. "You grew up on a farm") exactly, but to grant the effects I wanted to magnify character concepts. (Note that all character concepts existed long before the Director's Cut even existed as an idea.)
Here's what I took:

• Brittle Bones (slow movement, more action points) on my sniper. Concept was a sickly guy with deadly aim. Huge gameplay impact. He would pick his sniping position and sit there blasting away. By far the most kills of my whole team.
• Thick Skin (slow movement, natural armor) on my melee guy. Concept: Mongo from Blazing Saddles ("Don't shoot him; you'll just make him mad.") Huge gameplay impact. He had a hard time getting into position but hit like a ton of bricks, and I very much enjoyed him late game when enemies would literally shoot him for 0 damage. Over and over. I pictured the desperation on their faces as they realized guns were useless but they kept trying.
• Delayed Gratification (more skill points later) on my "skill monkey". Concept: naive genius. Great RP and gameplay impact. She was not very useful early game, like the innocent child she was. Obviously this allowed her to max a bunch of utility skills later.
• Opportunist (more damage vs. wounded targets) on my SMG medic. Concept: sneaky sadist. Big gameplay impact. Was always looking for hurt enemies for her to cruelly pick off. The rest of the party tended to avoid "finishing blows" because she was better at it.
sear wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 3:56 pm
Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 pm
Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 12:56 am
Also why didn't they used quirks for NPCs?
First, they would have had to redesign all the companions.
This was the main reason we didn't have them on CNPCs in the Director's Cut. We felt it'd potentially be annoying if you had to put up with a specific Quirk on a character you otherwise really liked, and we weren't able to squeeze in unique ones for each CNPC.
I wouldn't mind seeing unique Quirks on CNPCs in W3! But I will be disappointed if they choose from the same list I use for my PCs. My Psychopath becomes less interesting if there are four more Psychopaths out there who want to join the party.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Drool » July 14th, 2017, 9:05 pm

Zombra wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 11:37 pm
• Brittle Bones (slow movement, more action points) on my sniper. Concept was a sickly guy with deadly aim. Huge gameplay impact. He would pick his sniping position and sit there blasting away. By far the most kills of my whole team.
• Opportunist (more damage vs. wounded targets) on my SMG medic. Concept: sneaky sadist. Big gameplay impact. Was always looking for hurt enemies for her to cruelly pick off. The rest of the party tended to avoid "finishing blows" because she was better at it.
I did both of these as well (except my medic was also my skill monkey and used pistols). Still, they had tremendous impact on the game. My sniper frequently got three attacks per turn (and I avoided giving her the anti-material to keep that) and would often 90% kill three people for the doc to finish off. It's a pretty brutal combination.
Remo wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 7:03 pm
(btw where was they mentioned on the character sheet anyway? I can't recall.
Main character sheet page. Can toggle between Quirks and Biography.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by undecaf » July 15th, 2017, 12:25 am

sear wrote:
July 13th, 2017, 3:56 pm

This was the main reason we didn't have them on CNPCs in the Director's Cut. We felt it'd potentially be annoying if you had to put up with a specific Quirk on a character you otherwise really liked, and we weren't able to squeeze in unique ones for each CNPC.
Consider making the cNPC's offer something (abilities, interactions...) the player would without them not have access to. Makes them all the more interesting and valuable.

Also, consider non-combat or bad at combat (and who never gets to be as good as others) cNPC's that might shine elsewhere. It can be a drag to tag someone like that along, but it might pay off big time where s/he really gets to shine. E.g. With enough computer science you might be able to program a medic-bot as a party member (who doesn't have XP and skill tree, but who can be upgraded with parts and high enough mechanical repair and computer science). It won't be a damage dealer, but it might be able to offer slight single target and AOE debuffing attacks like poisoning and debilitating with drug injections and sprays.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Zombra » July 15th, 2017, 1:12 am

undecaf wrote:
July 15th, 2017, 12:25 am
Consider making the cNPC's offer something (abilities, interactions...) the player would without them not have access to. Makes them all the more interesting and valuable.
I am down with this idea. I liked the hirelings in Might and Magic 7 (and others) that had special abilities outside the normal skill system. A cook who generates food, or a wise old teacher who increases party xp gain, stuff like this is great.

Just make sure that the CNPCs don't outshine the PCs. My created PCs should have access to stuff the NPCs don't (Quirks in W2 being a good example).
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by undecaf » July 15th, 2017, 2:55 am

Zombra wrote:
July 15th, 2017, 1:12 am
Just make sure that the CNPCs don't outshine the PCs. My created PCs should have access to stuff the NPCs don't (Quirks in W2 being a good example).
Sure, of course. I just mean that they should have worth and offer intrigue beyond how much they compensate on what skills/perks you didn't pick for your core party.

On the topic of "hirelings"... It might actually be interesting to have killable "buff for a price" NPC's that can be recruited on top the rest of the party. Completely AI controlled, rudimentary dialogs based on their work-relationship, of little use outside the buff they offer (ie. just civilian tagalongs), some critters/enemies might even target them specifically for easy prey.

E.g. a wastelander locksmith might join for X amount of scraps and y% of the scraps found to offer +10% on lockpicking for locks under the difficulty level of 5. Or something to that end. And when you don't need them anymore, you might send them on their way or back in the Ranger HQ for some purpose (perhaps to be trained as potential replacements if one of your core partymembers gets killed).

Might work, or might not. It sounds like little bit of extra fun that's there if wanted, but can also well be ignored.
Last edited by undecaf on July 16th, 2017, 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Zombra » July 15th, 2017, 10:28 am

undecaf wrote:
July 15th, 2017, 2:55 am
On the topic of "hirelings"... It might actually be interesting to have killable "buff for a price" NPC's that can be recruited on top the rest of the party. Completely AI controller, rudimentary dialogs based on their work-relationship, of little use outside the buff they offer (ie. just civilian tagalongs), some critters/enemies might target them specifically for easy prey.
Cool idea! Could just follow you around like Vax or Bart, adding some kind of bonus to the party, and do nothing in combat.
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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Gizmo » July 15th, 2017, 1:08 pm

Like Myron; practically. (Fallout 2)

These NPCs could also conceivably work as installable features in the stronghold; if you get them there alive. Hypothetically, lets' say you had an NPC with their own chuck wagon, or something smaller, but functionally the same. As the rangers push into new territory, this NPC (or NPCs) trails along behind them. They stop at wherever the rangers make camp, where they bandage and feed them—to some effect that is better than just camping by itself. IIRC Bethesda used 'a well rested bonus' for sleeping in a real bed; most of the Gold Box games did the same, and several Infinity engine games. (Buying better accommodations at the Inn.)

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Re: Really Disappointed

Post by Remo » July 16th, 2017, 4:34 am

undecaf wrote:
July 15th, 2017, 2:55 am
Sure, of course. I just mean that they should have worth and offer intrigue beyond how much they compensate on what skills/perks you didn't pick for your core party.
Yes!

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