Optimistically Horrified

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Drool
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Drool » November 29th, 2016, 1:47 pm

Actually, in a way, the pervasive swearing serves to highlight when it's gone. Now, I'm willing to admit that Tam was a little overboard, but he's a lunatic making homemade explosives. Tiny Tina talks like a rapper, and he swears like one. Must be the fumes.

Anyway, like I was saying, the pervasive profanity really highlights when it's gone. For instance, the Mannerites. Their politeness stands out like a massive spotlight because it's so incongruous with the rest of the world. If everyone in the world simply said "oh fiddlesticks" or "gee golly willickers", the Mannerites would hardly stand out at all.
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marceror
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by marceror » November 29th, 2016, 2:00 pm

Drool wrote:If everyone in the world simply said "oh fiddlesticks" or "gee golly willickers", the Mannerites would hardly stand out at all.
They also wouldn't be believable. The Mannerites have a justification. The rest of folks do not.

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Woolfe
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Woolfe » November 29th, 2016, 9:40 pm

Mole204 wrote:
Woolfe wrote:Mole204, I see you still haven't learnt how to use the quote facility.
You are not "Right" this is not a situation of right or wrong. The things you want are not reliant on "clean" language, and they never will be.
Moleman wrote:The quote function quickly breaks down under the many and varied points that I had to respond on.

It's really not that hard
OnlyMyopinionisrightMoleman wrote:As for that I was right about that thing being a yes/no matter of right-correct or wrong-incorrect, yes I was right.
MolemanRants wrote:This isn't a situation of "steal bread to feed family" or any other of the standard moral dilemmas- it's a matter of implementing those situations where everything has gone wrong. Then, it's a matter of morality, but in back-up wider view sort of point. Now- take every instance of swearing in the game and listen to what they're saying. Why should they bother to put that in in the first place? Don't you deserve better? You may as well have a recording of flatulence for all the no good at all it does anyone. That's just not entertaining. That's just not any good at all. They aren't even trying. They aren't even trying to get anything under the radar and that irks me even more. Would you rather hear Fishlips try to swear threateningly at someone, or would you rather hear Fishlips try to intimidate someone by threatening to turn them into horseburgers? One option is unlikable, offensive, and a bore to sit through. The other is more interesting, better worldbuilding, and makes the cannibalism even more relevant. When was the last time you saw a horse in the Wasteland series? Even in Wl1, they had defaulted to using the well-storied Hobo-Dog.
Yawn... Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it right.

What you state is perfectly possible with or without swearing.

Fishlips could be saying "Fucking Horseburgers". Nothing is lost, still the same "worldbuilding" etc.
Mole204 wrote:Why are you insistent they they NOT do better than to wipe their shoes on the script and then expect us to buy it from them? They have a chance to do better than that. Let's call them out on it.
Because that is YOUR opinion, I do not agree with your opinion.
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pts
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by pts » December 6th, 2016, 2:00 pm

Whats the problem with swearing? Other that some ultra-religious crackers, i never met people who don't swear, at least in private and with friends. The more colorful, the better! Creative swearing, taunting and insulting is really an art form. E.g. “Thou clay-brained guts, thou knotty-pated fool, thou whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch!” (Henry IV Part 1, Shakespeare)

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by dsc106 » December 21st, 2016, 1:20 pm

trying to figure out if the author has a problem with swearing, or a problem with the quality of the writing regardless of swearing.

I think great writing can happen with or without swearing. I think the main point is, sometimes it's easy to cover up bad writing by adding in profanity. How strong or provocative would a line be WITHOUT any cussing? The writing should be strong enough that it sends chills down your spine as is. Add in swearing to spice it up or fit the character and world.

I believe the author's point may have been that some of the dialogue is a little flat and uncreative, or lacks depth or power, and is covered up with a stream of expletives to somehow make it seem more powerful. Not saying characters need to speak in overly complex ways or with great eloquence. I think a good example might be the Joker from The Dark Night. Granted we are talking about some of the most talented directors/actors/writers in the history of cinema and that's a high bar to set, but to make the point: Nolan's Joker is downright creepy and one of the best and most disturbing villains of all time, and from my memory, rarely swears.

All for adding profanity if it makes the game better and fits the character and world (in this case I think it does), just don't let it be a bandaid to excellent writing and character development. If you take away the swearing and the writing or character feels weak, that's a problem. Perhaps a good litmus test to quality.

Anyway, just trying to deduce what the OP may have been trying to articulate... hope that helps.

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » December 26th, 2016, 10:55 pm

I don't know how to follow up on that without ruining it, but here I go anyway. Thanks anyway.
Yes, those are some of several things I was going for. Better words chosen during a construction of series of words.
Why have profanity at all? There's no use to it. It's not "immersive" for the game, it's not normal in real life, it just shouldn't be there. Choosing one word over another can change the entire feel of a speech, of a movie, of a dozens-hour video game.
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We're not arguing gun law, or hobo dogs, or ethical treatment of animals. There's no reason to have swearing in anything, ever. Swearing is the habit of the lazy, the stupid, and the feral. It doesn't matter if Fishface "looks like an orc", what matters is that we're getting a video game, not a video with a porn vid audio track.
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You keep saying that like it's supposed to mean something. You have to say the words that mean what you mean.
If you took your swearing and removed the swearing, what would be left? What real words would you use instead?
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Which was more interesting- the ruby ring quest (wl1) or the fuk shak (wl2)? A normal and often forgotten quest, or a quest with an excessive sex-torture porn motif. There seems to have been a line crossed for some of the players. Yes, sex is a natural function, but there was no reason to go that far with the scene set-up. It was just a poorly thought out "locked in a cage" side-quest. Wouldn't it have been better to just _have_ a "people locked in a cage" side-quest? Another reason to keep profanity out of the game- programmers tend to need that line to let them know when they went too far. Someone had to pitch the scene, approve the scene, program it, test it. If something ended up going too far then there should have been things at the start that should have told them that. You may have to keep watch on the water supply, but it's not like you have to have a game mechanic for the pcs to go to the bathroom. And there were bathrooms in the last two games!
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Yes, the case is made for the raiders and various npcs to be savages, but that's no reason to have profanity in the game. The random encounter goons (and likely most of the named characters) are there as target practice, as part of the game quest of stamping out all that's gone rotten in the post-ww3 world. Infections are meant to be removed.
Even amongst barbarians there's a level of behavior. In one of the Conan books something like "Barbarians have better manners than city-folk, for amongst barbarians you're more polite lest your ill tongue cause someone to split your skull for disrespecting them." But that's not an exact quote.
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But it's clear that you'd get a better product without adding swearing to it. It's a mistake. It's a typo. It's just stupid.
Yes, get rid of the swearing. Do you want a game that is captivating, or boorish and vaguely insulting?
Surely you can do better than that. If you claim to be a writer, then you can manage to make your characters more menacing, more dangerous, without the crutch of swearing.
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I think some are just getting stuck on the no swearing bit for no reason. They don't want to examine a point, think, or concede anything. PTS and DSC both seem to get it, you put it well. Better than me? Shorter than me? There's a difference between "venting" or giving someone a piece of your mind, etc, and swearing. Self-control isn't as stressed as it used to be, but there's still a line not to fall below. Writers have to use their head and see how far you can take it without crossing some sort of censorship line. This is a computer game meant for long term play in peoples homes, computers and apparently video game systems like Xbox. Including the speakers that go with them.
Keeping WL3 in a certain rating should prevent things in general from getting dumber, cruder, more lazy. So we've got raiders and reavers, there's no reason for them to be swearing. Even brutish goons and stock-villains don't have to swear to get the point of the character across.
If you are intentionally, intently, waiting for people to swear, then I'm going to have to question your reasons. This isn't some hentai game or a sex chat party line. You should go elsewhere to get your fill of "X threatens to shove (object) into (location)." What makes you think that everyone is going to tolerate such behavioral problems? The fact that people take swearing to be freedom for more swearing, idiots parroting idiots, is just insult to injury.
If WL3 had no swearing in it, would you even notice?
Why are you accepting the bar be set so low? It's got writers, why aren't they using them? You can't tell me that it wouldn't be an improvement to swap some words with something world-building, or megalomaniac, or just gloriously hammy.
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You've said something like that before.
Perhaps we just need new things to argue about. It's clear there's two groups in this thread. 1-who would change the dialogue and remove/replace/improve swearing. 2-who doesn't care about the dialogue and is only here to defend their personal non-freedoms to act like scum.

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Grohal » December 27th, 2016, 4:14 am

"If WL3 had no swearing in it, would you even notice?"

You bet I would- the whole game would feel wrong. That's like giving me a Pro Evo Soccer with empty stadiums, maybe I wouldn't notice in the first few minutes - but something would be missing without a loud, moving crowd in the background.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Zombra » January 2nd, 2017, 12:37 am

Posts removed and thread locked. Way too personal. Attack the idea, not the person.
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