Optimistically Horrified

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Mole204
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Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » November 27th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Optimistically Horrified
Ok. I'm just hearing about this now... I'm definitely going to get W3, but what do I get?
I'm hoping that you've gotten the bugs worked out of the programs. That W3 will have gotten over whatever it was that causes crashing. There was no end of trouble!
Just saw the promo vid. It would seem that you've been going at it since October and gotten a good chunk of the game built. I'm hoping that the writing will be better in the finished game. The swearing in the second game was a bit of a letdown, and there's more in the promo video. Swearing is two mistakes, because swearing is not interesting, and that was the part where you could have _said_ something interesting or amusing or quotable instead. It's hard to enjoy a game that's that... bland AND offensive. Think of Star Wars. All those quotes and not one of them foul-mouthed. You guys talk about "stretch goals" but you never go back and fix the mistakes you've already made. DO BETTER.
And then there's the bait-and-switch of the Director's Cut. You make a big deal out of WL2 being created, then you go and make a second totally-redone version of it, that's apparently better. Save that sort of effort for a add-on 0.5 side-game. Are we SUPPOSED to get the early game, the game, or is there a "after-the-game-release game that's the real version that we've been holding back from selling until now"?
Multiplayer has always been problematic in the long term. With the exception of Warcraft, MMO's have never been permanent. They shut down sooner than later.
-
Wasteland One gave me everything needed to love it forever. WL2 tried to talk me out of it. What am I supposed to do when I see WL3 making the same mistakes?

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Woolfe » November 27th, 2016, 6:17 pm

Swearing is two mistakes, because swearing is not interesting, and that was the part where you could have _said_ something interesting or amusing or quotable instead.
This discussion has occurred before hasn't it.

Nothing wrong with Swearing, it in and of itself does not make a conversation "interesting" or "Not interesting" it is simply a different way of speaking. Some swear, some don't. Either way it appears to be here to stay.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Zombra » November 27th, 2016, 8:25 pm

Mole204 wrote:What am I supposed to do when I see WL3 making the same mistakes?
Lobby for a profanity filter; that's the absolute best you can hope for. The writers aren't going to write a sanitized game for you.

If that doesn't work, adjust your expectations accordingly. Wasteland is a world with extremely violent and sometimes foul-mouthed inhabitants. It's not a world where everyone is scrupulously polite and well-bred - it's just not, and it never will be. Ask yourself whether you can accept that, and if not, spend your time and money elsewhere.
Woolfe wrote:This discussion has occurred before hasn't it.
It has. The upshot three years ago was that a profanity filter was supposed to make it into Wasteland 2, but it never happened despite Brother None's assurance that it would be very cheap to include.

Even with lots of recorded dialogue, it should be pretty cheap to just "bleep" out the swear words. I have no problem with such a filter being added to Wasteland 3.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Woolfe » November 27th, 2016, 8:35 pm

Indeed just to clarify, I also don't have a problem with a profanity filter, that can be turned on an off for those who want it.

Also... I find it hilarious that that thread made 19 pages :lol:

And included commentary from Snakeoil and Darkzone.... *sniff* sometimes I miss those crazy cats...

AND apparently I need to listen to my own advice some times .... :lol: :lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3973&start=140#p74626
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » November 27th, 2016, 9:47 pm

Zombra wrote:
Mole204 wrote:What am I supposed to do when I see WL3 making the same mistakes?
If that doesn't work, adjust your expectations accordingly. Wasteland is a world with extremely violent and sometimes foul-mouthed inhabitants. It's not a world where everyone is scrupulously polite and well-bred - it's just not, and it never will be. Ask yourself whether you can accept that, and if not, spend your time and money elsewhere.
My expectations are for a good game and that includes good writing. Basic writing, even, as long as it's something that I'd like to hear more about. The dialogue options in the promo vid aren't very good are they? The ranger options are better than the spoken ones from Fishlips. If they're going to go to the trouble of recording those why didn't we get something less generic? Drop the swearing, add more cannibalism.
>The writers aren't going to write a sanitized game for you.
Ask yourself if intentionally adding the profanity does the work any good. A game is constructed, built. If something is somehow built with a bag of leaking kitchen garbage in it, you're going to want to remove that before shipping.
>a world with extremely violent and sometimes foul-mouthed inhabitants
Yes, but shouldn't they be _entertainingly_ ill-bred? For every swear instance is another chance that they could have said something really interesting. If it'd had just been another f-you, then we'd never have gotten the "They shot Fritz!" rant from Wizards. If it's just been another 1 calls 2 a s/head, then we'd have never gotten all those quotes out of The Princess Bride. Do you remember the characters in Midnight Cowboy swearing at traffic, or just the line "I'm walking here!" For every I'm going to f/you up, is another chance to create your own Pulp Fiction Bible Rant quote. This is a list that keeps going, so let's move on. Since it's just scum talking big to try to scare people, shouldn't the writers put some effort into thinking up something better? They could be referencing some monster from WL1, or adding some other big-talking lie. They could be name-dropping the Glow Angels, they could be name-dropping Bards Tale riffs for all we know. Something that you'd _want_ to explore, something that you'd _want_ to learn more about. Damn dirty ape is clean enough. Let's try to understand that I'm right (about this one thing, don't freak out), that you're being stupid and lazy if you're going along with the opposite, and focus on repairing what we can't replace. Not that we customers=rabble are allowed the option, but any improvement we can force is one we wouldn't get otherwise.

Now, as for the Directors Cut bait and switch, there's been 15 updates, so I'm assuming that everybody knows more then me about what's going on. Are they going to shaft us by putting out the "real" game later?

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Zombra » November 27th, 2016, 10:51 pm

Mole204 wrote:My expectations are for a good game and that includes "good writing".
Quotes mine. If "good writing" means no swears, and I continue to disagree that it does, then your expectations are unrealistic, which is why I suggest again that you adjust them. A "clean" Wasteland 3 is not going to happen. Of course you are free to deny reality.
Mole204 wrote:Let's try to understand that I'm right
lol. Your appeal to authority is fallacious, and the half scenes you cite don't even support your claim. "Damn dirty ape" is a swear, but you give it a pass because you happen to like it? I call bullshit. The Pulp Fiction character you cited swears like a ************ throughout the rest of the movie. There's great, memorable writing in many contexts where swearing exists. Often, swearing makes writing better. Off the top of my head? Deniro's character in Midnight Run. The "Fuck off" scene in Maltese Falcon. The swear words themselves aren't always brilliant writing, but neither are words like "the" or "air" or "carburetor" - it's what's done with and around them that matters. There are plenty more, but it's much easier to find great scenes that don't include certain words than those that do. I can name 10 great scenes that don't include the word "refrigerator" - does that mean that refrigerators should be banned from the game?

You might as well demand that no characters wear the color green, because you don't like green. That would have just as much effect on the quality of the writing.

Anyway, you're welcome to your opinion and I don't intend to fight this fight all over again. You were wrong then, and you're wrong now. Can't accept that? That's OK too and I sympathize, but Wasteland 3 isn't going to be sanitized for your protection, or for your sense of good taste.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Grohal » November 28th, 2016, 12:00 am

Mole204 wrote:...Just saw the promo vid. It would seem that you've been going at it since October and gotten a good chunk of the game built. I'm hoping that the writing will be better in the finished game. The swearing in the second game was a bit of a letdown, and there's more in the promo video. Swearing is two mistakes, because swearing is not interesting, and that was the part where you could have _said_ something interesting or amusing or quotable instead. It's hard to enjoy a game that's that... bland AND offensive. Think of Star Wars. All those quotes and not one of them foul-mouthed. ...
Mannerite detected. :mrgreen:

€: just looked at the old thread. It seems I made the same joke there already. Sorry. :)

To say something contructive: I find it way more disturbing if a band of rapists and killers are talking politely, but that is just me I guess.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » November 28th, 2016, 10:29 am

Zombra wrote:
A "clean" Wasteland 3 is not going to happen. Of course you are free to deny reality.
-Not deny it, just to try to fix it. But let's take a look at how that actually works:
"We hang our hat on telling really great stories."
-Brian Fargo
"(unprintable garbage)"
-Wasteland 3 character
Huh. Don't think that everybody has so short a memory as to allow every lie you tell to go unnoticed, or to fail to hold you to it.
>"Damn dirty ape" is a swear, but you give it a pass because you happen to like it?
-It's not _that_ bad, and you're just focusing on the stance of "no" instead of the question of how to fix it up.
>The Pulp Fiction character you cited swears like a ************ throughout the rest of the movie.
-Yes, but it could have been better. It kind of proves my point, how bad scenes make a movie less entertaining. The random swearing wasn't the _good_ part! And it does bring down the quality of the work.
>it's what's done with and around them that matters.
-Yes. That's much of my point. Toss the garbage, replace it with something better. There's no reason to (denigrate? de-entertain?) a created work with sub-par work and sub-par fowl language when they could be giving us something better. Why do people settle for it? Laziness, mostly. Well that's not good enough!
>You were wrong then, and you're wrong now. Can't accept that?
No, because I was right then, and am right now. I'm just not willing to let it go. If someone's going to pee on a rug, you don't buy it from them afterwards, you try to stop it from happening. Metaphor-wise. Moving on.
>Green refrigerators
It's just this one thing. Have you heard about how the firearms hobbyists argue about incorrect gun information in WL2? If I said something about guns and got it wrong and kept getting it wrong, the guy correcting me every time would be right. This is sort of the same thing. Where I'm right about something and you don't care because you're happy with half of what you would get otherwise.
>Wasteland 3 isn't going to be sanitized for your protection, or for your sense of good taste
-Can it be improved for my enjoyment of the game? Can it be improved away from generic foul-mouthed trash and become something defaulting to clean, and more accessible to others, more enjoyable? Surely, asking for a better product is not a bad thing to do.

Now unless you've got an idea that's useful, can we move on to another question like will there be a W3 Director's Cut? Or the RAM, has anyone found any current numbers on how much ram it'll take this time?
Last edited by Mole204 on November 28th, 2016, 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by dorkboy » November 28th, 2016, 10:40 am

Mole204 wrote:Multiplayer has always been problematic in the long term. With the exception of Warcraft, MMO's have never been permanent. They shut down sooner than later.
That's certainly true for games that require an external server, but it shouldn't be a problem if the game session is hosted by one of the players.
I don't know if they have some sort of lobby or match making system planned, but I would find that surprising..
Maybe they have addressed that in one of the updates? :?
Edit: Just reread the multiplayer update (https://www.fig.co/campaigns/wasteland- ... 91#updates), and it does seem like some sort of third party server would be involved with regards to keeping track of which of the players are online/offline. Hmm.. :?
Last edited by dorkboy on November 28th, 2016, 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » November 28th, 2016, 10:46 am

dorkboy wrote:
Mole204 wrote:Multiplayer has always been problematic in the long term. With the exception of Warcraft, MMO's have never been permanent. They shut down sooner than later.
That's certainly true for games that require an external server, but it shouldn't be a problem if the game session is hosted by one of the players.
I don't know if they have some sort of lobby or match making system planned, but I would find that surprising..
Maybe they have addressed that in one of the updates? :?
Thank you Dorkboy. But a simple two-player home-run program, like Starcraft, doesn't seem to match up with some of what they talked about in the promo vids. That stuff about players playing and the size of the world, and playing for evil, and causing changes, and you could wake up one day and find out that your player is now an enemy of the state or such. The amount of players and differences would seem to need a constant on-net server or program hub.

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by RadonGOG » November 28th, 2016, 11:36 am

Zombra wrote:(...)
Woolfe wrote:This discussion has occurred before hasn't it.
It has. The upshot three years ago was that a profanity filter was supposed to make it into Wasteland 2, but it never happened despite Brother None's assurance that it would be very cheap to include.

Even with lots of recorded dialogue, it should be pretty cheap to just "bleep" out the swear words. I have no problem with such a filter being added to Wasteland 3.
I guess this just was a joke back then, wasn´t it?

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Zombra » November 28th, 2016, 12:18 pm

Mole204 wrote:can we move on
By all means! No system requirements have been posted yet as the game has barely entered preproduction; and as to the question of a Directors' Cut, it's far too early to speculate. The current release date for the game is 2019 - I'm sure we all (including inXile) hope that the game will be in its best, most complete state at that time, but who can see that far ahead?
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Drool » November 28th, 2016, 1:44 pm

Mole204 wrote:Are we SUPPOSED to get the early game, the game, or is there a "after-the-game-release game that's the real version that we've been holding back from selling until now"?
Except owners of vanilla got the DC for free? If it was an attempt to gouge the faithful, it failed spectacularly.
With the exception of Warcraft, MMO's have never been permanent.
Eh. I dunno. Raknarok Online is still around. Gemstone is still alive and kicking in its fourth iteration. Team Fortress 2 seems to still be going strong, to say nothing of DOTA which has a professional league. Hell, Diablo 2's servers are still kicking around.

Honestly, the survivability of WL3's multiplayer depends on implementation. If I can link up with a Steam friend or via IP address directly, it'll be fine. You know, until Steam goes down and they stop using IP addresses.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Woolfe » November 28th, 2016, 3:19 pm

RadonGOG wrote:
Zombra wrote:(...)
Woolfe wrote:This discussion has occurred before hasn't it.
It has. The upshot three years ago was that a profanity filter was supposed to make it into Wasteland 2, but it never happened despite Brother None's assurance that it would be very cheap to include.

Even with lots of recorded dialogue, it should be pretty cheap to just "bleep" out the swear words. I have no problem with such a filter being added to Wasteland 3.
I guess this just was a joke back then, wasn´t it?
That thread certainly became one.

Almost everyone supported the idea of a Filter. Clearly it was harder than BN made out though.
Or they figured it was a game made for adults, if they can't regulate themselves/their area of influence, then they shouldn't be playing.

Shrug... it wasn't something that affected me, so I don't have a lot of skin in the game. Trying to remove swearing altogether tho. Now that I would fight.
Drool wrote:Honestly, the survivability of WL3's multiplayer depends on implementation. If I can link up with a Steam friend or via IP address directly, it'll be fine. You know, until Steam goes down and they stop using IP addresses.
This. My friends and I play games together all the time. We rarely use any matchmaking facilities. We simply connect amongst ourselves. I can not ever seeing myself playing one of these sort of games with someone I didn't know to some degree.
Mole204 wrote:>You were wrong then, and you're wrong now. Can't accept that?
No, because I was right then, and am right now. I'm just not willing to let it go. If someone's going to pee on a rug, you don't buy it from them afterwards, you try to stop it from happening. Metaphor-wise. Moving on.
Mole204, I see you still haven't learnt how to use the quote facility.

You are not "Right" this is not a situation of right or wrong. The things you want are not reliant on "clean" language, and they never will be.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Mole204 » November 28th, 2016, 10:40 pm

Woolfe wrote:Mole204, I see you still haven't learnt how to use the quote facility.
You are not "Right" this is not a situation of right or wrong. The things you want are not reliant on "clean" language, and they never will be.
The quote function quickly breaks down under the many and varied points that I had to respond on. As for that I was right about that thing being a yes/no matter of right-correct or wrong-incorrect, yes I was right. This isn't a situation of "steal bread to feed family" or any other of the standard moral dilemmas- it's a matter of implementing those situations where everything has gone wrong. Then, it's a matter of morality, but in back-up wider view sort of point. Now- take every instance of swearing in the game and listen to what they're saying. Why should they bother to put that in in the first place? Don't you deserve better? You may as well have a recording of flatulence for all the no good at all it does anyone. That's just not entertaining. That's just not any good at all. They aren't even trying. They aren't even trying to get anything under the radar and that irks me even more. Would you rather hear Fishlips try to swear threateningly at someone, or would you rather hear Fishlips try to intimidate someone by threatening to turn them into horseburgers? One option is unlikable, offensive, and a bore to sit through. The other is more interesting, better worldbuilding, and makes the cannibalism even more relevant. When was the last time you saw a horse in the Wasteland series? Even in Wl1, they had defaulted to using the well-storied Hobo-Dog.
Why are you insistent they they NOT do better than to wipe their shoes on the script and then expect us to buy it from them? They have a chance to do better than that. Let's call them out on it.

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Zombra » November 28th, 2016, 11:37 pm

Mole204 wrote:[Swearing is] just not entertaining.
If you are truly "right" and everyone else is "wrong", doubtless you can produce your "entertainmen-ometer" that proves this assertion. When you state something as a fact like this, you have to back it up with scientific proof; otherwise it is not a fact, but a mere matter of taste. You have different tastes than other people, we get it. But that's all it is.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by ogi79 » November 29th, 2016, 12:44 am

"It's hard to enjoy a game that's that... bland AND offensive" ..really??? and how do you imagine POSTAPOCALYPSE?! as nice rainbow happy place?flowers everywere , birds are singing,everyone is polite and nice and pink flying monkeys jumping from tree to tree??! If you dont understand concept of postapocalypse (and you dont) then this game is not for you . You can always play Super Mario or Minecraft or Fallout 4 lol

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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by Grohal » November 29th, 2016, 4:11 am

Zombra wrote:
Mole204 wrote:[Swearing is] just not entertaining.
If you are truly "right" and everyone else is "wrong", doubtless you can produce your "entertainmen-ometer" that proves this assertion. When you state something as a fact like this, you have to back it up with scientific proof; otherwise it is not a fact, but a mere matter of taste. You have different tastes than other people, we get it. But that's all it is.
This - plus I daresay: more people would drop that game if everyone speaks like they having an afternoon tea - because it's simply not fitting and would kill any immerson - than the few that are disturbed by swearing raiders.

The setting simply gives not nice speeches.
If we would talk about a RPG in the Master of the ring-setting, that would be another matter entirely. I wouldn't like a swearing Gandalf.
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by undecaf » November 29th, 2016, 12:17 pm

Swearing is context (and characterization) sensitive. There are situations and characters where "not cursing" just feels off and actually produces a worse outcome than with a few "shits" and "motherfuckers" (etc).
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Re: Optimistically Horrified

Post by NickAragua » November 29th, 2016, 1:41 pm

If a man doesn't swear at least once in a while, you have to wonder how many human torsos he has in the basement freezer.

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