Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Binary-Blues16
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Binary-Blues16 » August 8th, 2017, 11:02 am

I'd like to see some improvements to the map. I get lost and/or turned around in Wasteland 2. Checking the map helps me see about where I am, but I often need to take an extra step to verify which direction I'm facing (which character was selected when I went into the map and which way is he/she facing relative?). The characters are often clumped together and facing many directions.
Also, the map could better indicate impassable terrain. So many times have I walked to a section using the map attempting to reach a destination only to realize that it's a cliffside or broken bridge that I can't see in the map.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by undecaf » August 8th, 2017, 11:17 am

Other improvements to the map... overland map more specifically...

- Let it be all 2D this time around (and allowing grid movement and encounters ala Wasteland 1)

- increasing the pace the party moves in the overland map, whether on foot or on vehicle, should affect random encouter type and likelyhood (and the game should take passage of time into account too) -- three types: Careful, Normal, Rush. Rushing might mean significantly faster movement but also taking a serious hit to the outdoorsman skill and lessen the likelyhood of non-hostile encounters, normal speed is... not additional hits or bonuses, and careful might mean significantly slower movement give a bonus to outdoorsman (making it a bit easier to travel dangerous territories) and increased likely hood of "special" encounters (what ever those might be... something not obtainable otherwise, or at least -extremely- rare).

Or something along the lines of that.
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Binary-Blues16 » August 8th, 2017, 3:01 pm

Yeah, I like that. One more thing about navigation: in WL2, I get frustrated when the characters can see enemies that I cannot see, which then lead to a missed opportunity to set up a good ambush. For example, my sniper has the perception to see further down a map and can target a distant enemy, however I as the player don't notice that as I'm exploring so I stumble into a battle.
Improve by either a note "Angela Deth spots a Slicer Dicer up ahead" or a visual indicator that one of my squad spotted an enemy with a red arrow so I know to push my viewable screen over there to look and start sniping before I run headlong I to the middle of a Slider Dicer party.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by ztemplarz » August 27th, 2017, 12:52 pm

Surprised no one has mentioned this, from what I've read.

- Mods. Make them more accessible to be purchased and easier to scavenge.

Removing a scope is not difficult. Whether you can do it should be related to some sort of variable attached to the weapon. Did you target the weapon in combat? Parts are broken, can't be used. Did you kill them quickly and cleanly before they could fight? Maybe a random chance for weapon mod damage based on the weapon type. They drop the gun, scope can be broken. Magazine won't break.

Make them much more expensive to purchase and used less often in combat, if you want to limit access to them. I literally savescummed 20 times trying to get a laser sight... which I had a 25% chance to scavenge... :/ I'm guessing the game checked my inventory to see how many I already had, and didn't want to give me more. I later bought $4,000 in guns, just to scavenge another laser sight... which I had to savescum 3 times to get. That is ridiculous. I would have happily paid $2,000-$4,000 just to get the laser and not have to savescum and waste time.

- Reworking of weaponsmithing in general. Most guns IRL never need it. Very few require more than cleaning and oil. A barrel change for a machine gun. Make it worthwhile or cut it. Make it so you can, without mods, make the gun fire faster, pack better ammo, become more accurate, recoil less, etc. Make it so you need certain materials and tools for that, and a certain skill level. I think it should be rebranded as "armorer". The skills cover making armor as well. Modify existing armor to weigh less, be more durable, be more "comfortable" (less speed reduction), etc.

- Outdoorsman. Should have a "tracking" ability, where you can actually search for certain types of prey. Track humans, animals, vehicles, etc. So, rather than just being about avoidance, you can actually look for certain types of encounters. Maybe give you more info, like how many animals or people they are, and how challenging based on your level.

- Animal whisperer. It has been talked about a ton in the W2 forums. Make it charm the animal to fight for you if your skill is high enough. If not, they flee (if your skill isn't enough to charm or so low that they attack that character).

Make it so there are legitimate options for "animal companions". Make it so that is limited by your skill in animal whisperer. You want a grizzly companion? Sure, but you can't handle any more beyond that, because they are territorial and you will need maxed out ability. Maybe with that same skill level you could have 2 attack dogs. Less powerful than a grizzly, but, 3 more targets for enemies, as opposed to 1.

Depending on the animal, give it a certain probability of going rogue during combat. Dogs? Only go rogue if you attack them by accident. Big cats, bears? Have a certain probability of going rogue every encounter. The longer it goes on, the higher the possibility.

Let there be armor for animal companions. If you really want to invest in it, attack and defense skill upgrades.

- Barter skill. Make some perks where maybe high level ability lets you get access to higher-tiered options earlier. Maybe with enough skill, you can order items not available- costs more, but saves you from trecking across the whole map. Bigger discounts and better sales prices.

- Trainers. Should be able to pay to get skill increases. The more skilled you are, the more you pay for the increase. Only certain characters can train above a certain level.

Do like Arcanum did, and have master trainers. You maxed out Armorer? Ok, go find the Sons of Guns. If you complete their difficult tasking, they teach you how to be a master armorer. You can now make some "handcrafted" weapons which otherwise you will never see. You maxed out animal whisperer? Go find Steve Erwin, who will teach you how to make an animal companion of some unique silverback gorilla, or powerful snow leopard, or something along those lines- an animal companion impossible to charm without his training. For fighting skills, special attacks no one else has access to (besides maybe some boss). You get the idea.

- Charisma. Should help or hurt with all the dialogue skills. I ended up with a character with 2 charisma being maxed in smartass and hardass and passing all those checks. They should be related. Maybe you can only advance the dialogue skills to a certain point based on your level of charisma.

That's all I can think of right now. I really enjoyed W2 DC.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Nox--- » October 19th, 2017, 10:42 am

First post here. Needless to say, i haven't read all 14 pages... Tiresome, especially since english is not my native language. But still, my 2 cents...

First, i must say that i like Wasteland 2 (wich i backed just after the KS), especially with the director's cut which add some meaningful things, like aimed shots, upgraded maps, perks, quirks, and such. I really like the fact that the game is not really dumbed down. I appreciate deeply that you don't heal automatically after combat, like in Pillars. In short, great game. Now, i still have some thing i would like to see done better in Wasteland 3.

-Visible armors. Definitely. Though i like the idea of different clothings too. Was a great idea to make them in W2. As for the junk items. I always wondered why everything i loot in RPGs is weapon and ammos. Wasteland 2 made my day :)

-Better handling of radioactivity. I can't really see the point of radioactivity or thirst making loose raw hit points to the squad. Radioactivity or dehydration is not about HP, right? It's more about illness and death. Fallout 1 and 2 handled it better in my opinion, with the radX and radaway, though it was still way too soft.

-I don't quite like the fact areas seemed to be leveled. You already knew, pretty much, what this one safe contained before even opening it. If the area looks like a tier 2 area, you will have consistently tier 2 items. If the area is tier 4? you'll have tier 4 items. I think it made everything look artificial. I would not mind seeing tier 1 items in tier 4 areas or, at times, tier 4 items in tier 2 or 3 areas. Same with ammos and trinkets.

-Speaking of ammos. One thing i loved in Fallout 1 and 2 was the profusion of different weapons and ammos. In wasteland 2, you have basically all assault rifles using 5.56 for the first part of the game, and then 7.62. You have a very limited number of different ammos for everything. It's not only hard to believe in a RPG, it's plain boring. Make things like in old fallout please. I don't care if i have to handle 30 different types of ammos.

-The fact the skill challenges seems tied to area levels. Basically this meant for me that upgrading my lockpicking skills and such was artificial. At the start of the game i had lockpicking at 1, mid game, at 6, but since the challenges pretty much followed my skill levels i never felt like investing these points was meaningfull. I just had to level up them in order to be able to follow the game difficulty curve. I really have no idea how to improve this though.

-Toaster repair was wacky and i liked it. (i cracked my ribs laughing with all the hemoroids part, seriously, LOL. The voice actor for DBM leader is a fucking genius). But still, past some point, i pretty much knew, once more, that i will find some miscellaneous item in those. which would need to be given to some NPC somewhere. While this is not a bad thing in itself, having, once in a while, a very unique item directly would be great. There were some unique armors that were cut. Though it makes no sense to find them in a toaster, the whole concept of toaster reapair is already plenty wacky, so why not?

-One thing that struck me quite fast in the first half of the game was the fact that i could not understand how in hell there were still communities living in the wastes. Reason for this is wherever you go, everyone pretty much die. And there are barely any children out there. Just count the number of locations where everyone gets slaughtered whatever you do... I understand that the world is grimy and all, but you really pushed the concept too far. If the wastes are like this, there is no way, after decades, that communities are still living somewhere. That's what i thought. It made the whole Arizona feel... well, what is the word? hard to believe? Can't tell about California, since i'm just starting with Santa Fe springs right now. But i played Arizona several times already.

-I can't fathom how 2 guns can have such huge damage difference. You know, both fire bullets after all. But the first (tier 1) would hardly make a scratch to the target, while the other (tier 4) would just one shoot it. How? They are both some guns firing conventional bullets (sometimes same ammo). And considering how many weapons you find and scrap, there much be some factory somewhere, right? Fallout New Vegas did it right when they added the Gun Runners faction in the Mojave.

-Too many times, developers seem to want to force a demonstration on us. World is grimy, you can't save the world, and such. Well, this is something we pretty much understood since the start with the Highpool/AG center thing. There was no need to force things upon us more than necessary afterwards. Sarah, in the Canyon of TItan is just one of many examples, where you can't use your skills or even ask for help at the hospital. In some many other occurences, the fact that we are denied to even try using our medical skills reinforce this idea (like Santa Fe Springs). If really it is impossible to do anything, then we should be allowed to try, and then a sort of pop up explaining why it is impossible should tell us. "This guy's insides are lacerated in several critical areas. No amount of stitching could ever stop the bleeding in time". Or such.

-The perks and Quirks are a very great addition. I love having them, and their existence adds tremendously to the game for me. Even though i like having them so much, i feel they could be perfected. Although all perks seem to be usefull in some ways, the fact that you are really limited in the number you can get tends to make me ignore the pure "convenient" ones. Like the perks allowing for no critical fail on some skill uses. I don't know how to make things better here. Allowing more perks may be a solution if they are not too powerful, and overhauling the pure "convenient" ones may help, too. Quirks are great, but since i use to write long backgrounds for each of my characters, the descriptions of the quirks and their effects rarely match their personality. I love how colorful they are, but adding some less wacky, more basic, could help in this regard. I tend to have a hard time to find one that could fit my characters, even though i want to use one so badly :)

-Is there any need to get so many more hit points per level? Level 1 NPCs look like cockroaches past some game time. This would probably help reduce the difference in damage between tier 1 and tier 6 weapons.

-Help me wear heavy armors. Though i have no particular problems with energy weapons (especially since there are perks now), i still feel like the inconvenience for wearing heavy armors may be a bit too harsh. The multiplicative damages suffered for weary conductive armors may be a bit too high, especially in Supreme Jerk, where the difficulty level may seem just right to the player, and suddenly out of hands when confronted with energy weapon users. I don't want to have to metagame and change armor before combat just because of that.

-No level cap. It's not that i'm asking for a permit to grind. It's just that i'm an overly completionist player, and when there is a cap level, i'm always afraid, all game long, that i may reach the level cap before the end, which makes me uneasy, since i tend to drop a game just before i reach the level cap. Would be great if you could set my mind free of this hindrance.

Pretty much all i can think of right now. Which is actually not much, especially compared to the list i've done for Pillars of Eternity (thrice as long, minimum). The list of things i've liked in the game would probably take pages and pages :).

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Gizmo » October 19th, 2017, 5:16 pm

For WL3... implement a "wait" combat option for characters; preferably one that can delay through to any position in the entire queue.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by bokkie » October 20th, 2017, 4:51 pm

+1! And don't let everybody who's on guard shoot at the same time when an enemy moves.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by sear » October 21st, 2017, 12:02 pm

Gizmo wrote:
October 19th, 2017, 5:16 pm
For WL3... implement a "wait" combat option for characters; preferably one that can delay through to any position in the entire queue.
We're making some changes to the initiative system in Wasteland 3 that should make this a non-issue.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Gizmo » October 21st, 2017, 3:40 pm

sear wrote:
October 21st, 2017, 12:02 pm
Gizmo wrote:
October 19th, 2017, 5:16 pm
For WL3... implement a "wait" combat option for characters; preferably one that can delay through to any position in the entire queue.
We're making some changes to the initiative system in Wasteland 3 that should make this a non-issue.
By non-issue, do you mean there will be no reason for the option? (I certainly don't want a system where the PCs all take their turn, and then their enemies retaliate.)

I like the ability to decide that my character chooses to wait until after certain others act.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Zombra » October 21st, 2017, 4:29 pm

Gizmo wrote:
October 21st, 2017, 3:40 pm
sear wrote:
October 21st, 2017, 12:02 pm
We're making some changes to the initiative system in Wasteland 3 that should make this a non-issue.
I certainly don't want a system where the PCs all take their turn, and then their enemies retaliate. I like the ability to decide that my character chooses to wait until after certain others act.
I also immediately assumed the worst (i.e. XCOM-style turns), but I wasn't going to be the first to say it. I don't care that much about holding actions, but I'll be sad if we lose "faster characters go more often than slow ones".
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Gizmo » October 22nd, 2017, 11:27 am

Zombra wrote:
October 21st, 2017, 4:29 pm
I don't care that much about holding actions, but I'll be sad if we lose "faster characters go more often than slow ones".
Consider the situation where you have two wounded rangers, and would like the medic to wait rather than act... so that they can move towards, and heal up the ranger in the worst shape at the end of the round (but before the start of the next one); or even to keep delaying after a certain wounded ranger, to heal them if they really got hit bad—before another hit (from the remaining hostiles) might kill them.

Alternatively, consider a ranger with area effect explosives... continually delaying during the round, until there are enough enemy targets in close proximity to make it worth using the (last?) shot; or even delaying until after a ranger leaves the area of effect. In this case, the player moves the grenade thrower down the queue until after the PC who is in the way of them tossing their grenade (without friendly fire).

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Zombra » October 22nd, 2017, 11:40 am

Hey, you don't have to sell me. Holding actions is a good idea. But it's not as important to me as meaningful character stats. In XCOM, there's no such thing as a Speed statistic for soldiers, or Initiative that determines how frequently they appear in the queue. There is no queue; it's just "good guy turn/bad guy turn". In Wasteland 2, a 10 Speed character acted more often than a 1 Speed character. I don't want to lose that in W3 ... it might lead to there being fewer stats on the character sheet, making all characters more the same. CLASSIC isn't perfect, but I don't want to see it turn into CSI.
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Zerginfestor » December 15th, 2017, 2:46 am

One of my biggest pet peeves from W2:DC was the weapon models: Some of them looked amazing, some of them goofy, though the real kicker was Brawling, which had no weapon model to look at. That is honestly pretty damn sad, especially with how Dragon Claws, Boom Fist, and Upchucker look, only to equip and just see your character punching with bare hands.

Which comes to the second pet peeve in being the lack of armor models. I get it, some people like to do clothing, that's fine, but it should've been an optional to see armor models on your character, the Spectrum Assault Suit and Pseudo-Chitin Armor looked badass upon examining, but to just simply not appear upon equipping is a bummer.

Finally, the stacking perks. I despise such a concept, especially with such a limited amount of perks you can acquire, I think it would've been better to just roll it up into one low-to-mid-tier perk is fine, like just a flat 12% Chance of a free shot from a pistol and such. This would've allowed for more creative perks to pop into play and possibly add more viability to the weapons lacking in that department (like the bloody SHOTGUNS).

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by sear » January 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Zerginfestor wrote:
December 15th, 2017, 2:46 am
One of my biggest pet peeves from W2:DC was the weapon models: Some of them looked amazing, some of them goofy, though the real kicker was Brawling, which had no weapon model to look at. That is honestly pretty damn sad, especially with how Dragon Claws, Boom Fist, and Upchucker look, only to equip and just see your character punching with bare hands.

Which comes to the second pet peeve in being the lack of armor models. I get it, some people like to do clothing, that's fine, but it should've been an optional to see armor models on your character, the Spectrum Assault Suit and Pseudo-Chitin Armor looked badass upon examining, but to just simply not appear upon equipping is a bummer.

Finally, the stacking perks. I despise such a concept, especially with such a limited amount of perks you can acquire, I think it would've been better to just roll it up into one low-to-mid-tier perk is fine, like just a flat 12% Chance of a free shot from a pistol and such. This would've allowed for more creative perks to pop into play and possibly add more viability to the weapons lacking in that department (like the bloody SHOTGUNS).
Thanks for the feedback! The first two are things we want to look into for Wasteland 3.

As for stacking perks, I appreciate the input. I've been brainstorming perk ideas as we continue to implement our character systems, and I haven't so far used any stacking perks. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had any other thoughts echoing this sentiment.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Drool » January 12th, 2018, 4:08 pm

sear wrote:
January 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm
As for stacking perks, I appreciate the input. I've been brainstorming perk ideas as we continue to implement our character systems
So... you're sticking with CLASSIC, huh?
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Woolfe » January 13th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Drool wrote:
January 12th, 2018, 4:08 pm
sear wrote:
January 10th, 2018, 6:27 pm
As for stacking perks, I appreciate the input. I've been brainstorming perk ideas as we continue to implement our character systems
So... you're sticking with CLASSIC, huh?
I'd be surprised if they didn't. It's simpler to understand, especially for the ex fallout guys, and it has the snazzy name, which of course is another fallout throwback... :evil:
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by sear » January 15th, 2018, 9:51 pm

I've mentioned before that the game mechanics and systems for Wasteland 3 are expanding and building off of Wasteland 2, with the goal of taking what people liked the most and running with it while finding new things to meaningfully add. I can't say CLASSIC (or any other aspect of gameplay) is going to remain exactly the same, but neither are we planning on changing things from Wasteland 2 simply for the sake of change, either.

Speaking of, what aspects of CLASSIC do you all like the most? Which ones do you like the least? It's certainly come up in a more abstract or indirect way in this thread, but I'd love to hear what you'd think, what you'd change and what you'd keep, especially about particular attributes. Are you interested in the wider questions (attribute/skill interplay, number of attributes) or is it the small details (what each attribute does)?

The query about perk stacking and upgrades is also still available. ;)

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by undecaf » January 15th, 2018, 11:51 pm

Increasing the skill ranges from 1-10 to 1-25 or thereabouts, and linking attributes with skills (i.e. STR 7 + COOR 5 / 2 = throwing 6/25, just for an example, a skill doesn’t need to necessarily utilize two attributes) would be a good start in improving the existing system in my opinion. Also retain the cost increments for higher skills (in my example, allowing the first 10 skill levels be bough with one SP and then increasing the cost by 1 point after every fift point... for example).

And don’t stack the perks, or at most use it very sparingly where there’s a good context for it. Different perks really keep tge progression more alive than stacking ones.

Oh, more unusual skills. Things like bureaucracy, cryptology, forgery and metallurgy etc. might give an interesting twist to the otherwise quite conventional set even if they weren’t as heavily used as lockpicking or combat skills.
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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by sear » January 16th, 2018, 8:49 am

undecaf wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 11:51 pm
Increasing the skill ranges from 1-10 to 1-25 or thereabouts, and linking attributes with skills (i.e. STR 7 + COOR 5 / 2 = throwing 6/25, just for an example, a skill doesn’t need to necessarily utilize two attributes) would be a good start in improving the existing system in my opinion. Also retain the cost increments for higher skills (in my example, allowing the first 10 skill levels be bough with one SP and then increasing the cost by 1 point after every fift point... for example).
I know the attribute/skill interplay comes up pretty often. Is that mostly about realism, or the "tradition" of post-apoc games doing it? A lot of RPGs don't actually have any direct interactions between attributes and skills, and it's rare for me to see people bring it up with those games, nor has it ever particularly bothered me. It'd be helpful to know where the sentiment is coming from.

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Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by madmaxthc » January 16th, 2018, 9:04 am

sear wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 9:51 pm
I can't say CLASSIC (or any other aspect of gameplay) is going to remain exactly the same, but neither are we planning on changing things from Wasteland 2 simply for the sake of change, either.

Speaking of, what aspects of CLASSIC do you all like the most? Which ones do you like the least?
"but neither are we planning on changing things from Wasteland 2 simply for the sake of change, either."

Thank you for that! ;)

I personally liked CLASSIC. The main downside in my opinion was the "dead zone" of the Intelligence stat, i.e. between 4 and 8. Maybe it could be solved by scaling the skills to 100 rather than 10. Or any other solution that comes to your mind.
I also like the idea of attributes having an effect on skills, e.g. strength giving a bonus to brute force, but maybe this is a matter of personal preference. I think it does add some feeling of realism. I guess a lot of W2 players are Fallout veterans, like me, that is probably where this comes from. We were used to it, and W2 took away something we took for granted.

Keep up the great work!

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