Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

Post Reply
User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 5827
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Zombra » January 16th, 2018, 10:38 am

sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 8:49 am
I know the attribute/skill interplay comes up pretty often. Is that mostly about realism, or the "tradition" of post-apoc games doing it?
For me it's neither (though I like the realism). It's about better integrated gameplay: making stats more meaningful and impactful to my moment-to-moment experience. If I have two novice knife-throwers, and one has shitty Dexterity and the other has catlike Dexterity, it's good to see the catlike one be better at it - realistic, yes, but I also feel better about how I built the character.

In Wasteland 2, I put points into Coordination and they just kind of sat there unless I was shooting a gun. My character didn't "feel" as coordinated as he could have. Does that make sense?
Image

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 390
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by undecaf » January 16th, 2018, 10:55 am

sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 8:49 am
I know the attribute/skill interplay comes up pretty often. Is that mostly about realism, or the "tradition" of post-apoc games doing it? A lot of RPGs don't actually have any direct interactions between attributes and skills, and it's rare for me to see people bring it up with those games, nor has it ever particularly bothered me. It'd be helpful to know where the sentiment is coming from.
I don't have one clear answer, but I don't look these things from the perspective of "realism" and even less "tradition". Those are just words.

I like the feel of playing a system where things are connected (everything matters) and form a gameplay cohesion that feels organic -- and if it is made well, it also has a somewhat lax feel to it, so that it doesn't push me to "game the system" and calculate "best builds" as hard. It's also reminiscent of PnP. I think MSPE had a connection with skills and attributes (which is the reason, I think, some here are asking for this to happen), Cyberpunk 2020 had a system where the skill tests worked through attribute+skill+d10 against task difficulty. GURPS. Etc. I'm sure the MSPE guys here can elaborate more on that, as I never got to play that.

I didn't particularly like how the separation felt in Wasteland 2. It felt kinda disjointed, and in a way illogical. And for that matter, I didn't like that stuff any more in any other game either.

There's a certain kind of smoothness to a singular connected system - at least the ones that I've played - that appeals to me and makes the roleplaying feel more than playing a party of numberboxes. There's more to that of course than just the skill-attribute connection, but it plays a no small part there.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8867
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Drool » January 16th, 2018, 1:29 pm

sear wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 9:51 pm
Speaking of, what aspects of CLASSIC do you all like the most?
Not much, honestly. It felt like an attempt to graft a Fallout-style attribute system onto Wasteland.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3084
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Gizmo » January 16th, 2018, 1:41 pm

I'd rather a return to form, than a return to an age. Having a —system— was indicative of that age, not of that series.

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5675
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Woolfe » January 16th, 2018, 4:02 pm

sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 8:49 am
undecaf wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 11:51 pm
Increasing the skill ranges from 1-10 to 1-25 or thereabouts, and linking attributes with skills (i.e. STR 7 + COOR 5 / 2 = throwing 6/25, just for an example, a skill doesn’t need to necessarily utilize two attributes) would be a good start in improving the existing system in my opinion. Also retain the cost increments for higher skills (in my example, allowing the first 10 skill levels be bough with one SP and then increasing the cost by 1 point after every fift point... for example).
I know the attribute/skill interplay comes up pretty often. Is that mostly about realism, or the "tradition" of post-apoc games doing it? A lot of RPGs don't actually have any direct interactions between attributes and skills, and it's rare for me to see people bring it up with those games, nor has it ever particularly bothered me. It'd be helpful to know where the sentiment is coming from.
Realism... sure... But also Logic. If you have a skill that a certain attribute could affect, then it makes sense to have it make a difference.

For me it is the difference between someone who is "Experienced" and someone who has "Raw Ability".

So even within the bounds of the Skill, there are differences. Jimbob, TonyChopper and MarySue are all knife throwers. Jim and Mary have both been doing it for longer and have A skill level of 5. But Mary has a better Dexterity/Agility so tends to be more accurate than Jim. Tony on the other hand has an extreme Dexterity/Agility. So despite only being Skill level 3, in many simpler throws, he can hold his own against Jim and Mary.

It creates more depth and variation to builds, and makes logical sense.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5675
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Woolfe » January 16th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Zombra wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 10:38 am
sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 8:49 am
I know the attribute/skill interplay comes up pretty often. Is that mostly about realism, or the "tradition" of post-apoc games doing it?
For me it's neither (though I like the realism). It's about better integrated gameplay: making stats more meaningful and impactful to my moment-to-moment experience. If I have two novice knife-throwers, and one has shitty Dexterity and the other has catlike Dexterity, it's good to see the catlike one be better at it - realistic, yes, but I also feel better about how I built the character.

In Wasteland 2, I put points into Coordination and they just kind of sat there unless I was shooting a gun. My character didn't "feel" as coordinated as he could have. Does that make sense?
:lol: I just wrote my last post without even reading yours....
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
sear
Developer
Posts: 2545
Joined: March 21st, 2012, 8:30 am

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by sear » January 16th, 2018, 5:22 pm

Thank you for the feedback, all. It seems like we're mostly on the same page - when I was referring to "realism" I was pointing at the same "connectedness" you guys are highlighting.

Do you think the appeal is simply in having more interesting or "cohesive" (for lack of a better term) character creation, or do you feel it has a positive impact on moment-to-moment gameplay? When you're playing an RPG that doesn't have that property, do you find yourself missing it, or do you not think about it?

In other words, would you say the draw is in the fantasy or feel of a particular character - even if that doesn't cause much significant difference in gameplay outcomes?

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 5827
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Zombra » January 16th, 2018, 7:53 pm

sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 5:22 pm
Do you think the appeal is simply in having more interesting or "cohesive" (for lack of a better term) character creation, or do you feel it has a positive impact on moment-to-moment gameplay? When you're playing an RPG that doesn't have that property, do you find yourself missing it, or do you not think about it? In other words, would you say the draw is in the fantasy or feel of a particular character - even if that doesn't cause much significant difference in gameplay outcomes?
Put simply, I enjoy character building more, the more I can see real effects of my choices. Any difference is meaningful, right down to a 1% difference in success chance. Knowing that it matters that my Brute Force guy has a Strength of 6 instead of 1 or 10 makes him more interesting and feel more "mine".

I definitely did wish there was more palpable effect to stats in W2 while I was playing it - though I still insisted on building characters to concept for the "feel" of a lucky, likeable guy or a strong, stupid guy. The "feel" is indeed very important to me - but seeing the effects (large or small) on the screen goes a long way to establishing that feel.
Image

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 390
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by undecaf » January 16th, 2018, 9:21 pm

Yeah, what Zombra said.

The difference it makes in practice does not need to be earthshattering to still provide a meaningful impact. And it requires the mental gymnastics accordingly when you think about your characters and how you build them along the way and how you decide to tackle problems, and along the while it also affects the logic and feel of the characters.

I do miss it and the depth it adds when it is absent.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Grohal
Adventurer
Posts: 910
Joined: April 26th, 2013, 9:51 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Grohal » January 17th, 2018, 10:13 am

I also agree with Zombra on that. More intertwined skill/attribute stuff is needed.
Hell is no place, hell is a condition.

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8867
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Drool » January 19th, 2018, 2:38 pm

sear wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 5:22 pm
Do you think the appeal is simply in having more interesting or "cohesive" (for lack of a better term) character creation, or do you feel it has a positive impact on moment-to-moment gameplay?
Both?

Attributes in WL2 feel like they existed in a vacuum. They altered derived stats and nothing else. Thing is, it doesn't even need to hit us over the head. Take two characters in Wasteland and give them the same gun and the same gun skill, but one with 8 Agility and one with 16 Agility and you'll very quickly see the difference between them. The game didn't list percentages, but the difference was there. Likewise, two gamblers with different Luck or two lockpickers with different Dexterity.

Wasn't is supposed to be interaction back in the early days? Attributes were verbs and skills were nouns or something?
Gizmo wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 1:41 pm
Having a —system— was indicative of that age, not of that series.
Rather disingenuous to denigrate systems changes when you're always willing to complain loudly about combat system changes in Fallout. Furthermore, a return to MSPE is a return to form. It would show that they're trying to do a Wasteland game instead of just aping Fallout. Furthermore, MSPE allows for numerous hallmarks of the original, include skill experimentation, learn by doing, and a massive skill list to pick and choose from, as opposed to hording skill points like golden coins.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3084
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Gizmo » January 19th, 2018, 9:07 pm

Drool wrote:
January 19th, 2018, 2:38 pm
Rather disingenuous to denigrate systems changes when you're always willing to complain loudly about combat system changes in Fallout.
The quote is about franchise systems... Like SPECIAL. Lionheart used SPECIAL, and Torn and Van Buren would have used it.
The 'return to form', that you mistake... is not about a return to (any specific) system, but a return to the importance of having one.

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5675
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Your pet peeves & possible improvements for WL3

Post by Woolfe » January 20th, 2018, 10:15 pm

2 elements for me, the character building that Zombra mentions.

But also the potential "variation" of actions as well.
Think of it this way, in "The Princess Bride" (the book cause the movie does it slightly different).

Inigo and Westley are both expert swordsmen. But Inigo is better than Westley. However Westley realises that when he is in the rocks, he gains a very slight advantage, and this is how he defeats the superior swordsman.

You could imagine that as Inigo having a higher skill, but a lower agility. Thus when they were in a situation where agility was important (dodging around on the rocks) Westley gained an advantage.

You can apply this to many things.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests