Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

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undecaf
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by undecaf » October 19th, 2016, 1:23 pm

There could be a character subsystem that counts failures and critical failures and at certain intervals awards a perk that might constitute to something wacky or unexpected. They might even reflect as unique content (convos, ways to solve dilemmas, unique encounters, etc).

It would give an incentive to let failures be failures since they actually build up to something.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Drool » October 19th, 2016, 2:16 pm

Zombra wrote:You know what else would partially solve the problem - at least for me? I just had the thought last night. If critical failures didn't close something forever, but merely closed it off until your character could increase his skill level and come back, that would remove a huge amount of scum incentive.
Yup. I included that possibility under my "abolish critical failures" idea.
dorkboy wrote:The lack of an iron man mode* has always puzzled me; I'd think that replayability would go through the roof with that in the game. :?
Sunless Sea has an interesting way of doing it. At the start of the game, you have a token-thing in your hold. As long as you never manually save, you keep it. Once you manually save, it goes away. Essentially, everyone starts in Ironman, but it only continues as long as they let it.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » October 19th, 2016, 3:40 pm

Believing a game is broken because someone save scums is hard to comprehend for me. You don't do it, therefore the game is not broken. Because someone else does it does not break your game. However, limiting saves can make the game less welcoming for a particular type of gamer. Limiting saves will not affect you, so the game is not broken. However, limiting saves will affect this gamer, and so to them the game is broken or not worth playing.

You want to be rewarded for not save scumming? Have a badge system and gamify your playing experience so you can boast about it. Leave the game alone.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by SagaDC » October 19th, 2016, 3:43 pm

Drool wrote:
Zombra wrote:You know what else would partially solve the problem - at least for me? I just had the thought last night. If critical failures didn't close something forever, but merely closed it off until your character could increase his skill level and come back, that would remove a huge amount of scum incentive.
Yup. I included that possibility under my "abolish critical failures" idea.
To be fair, some of the critical failure results in Wasteland 2 (jammed locks, mostly) could be undone using the Mechanical Repair skill. It's something that a lot of players didn't even realize was possible, because it's much easier to just reload a quicksave than it is to cycle through other skills or abilities to see if any of them might fix a problem.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » October 19th, 2016, 4:07 pm

SagaDC wrote:To be fair, some of the critical failure results in Wasteland 2 (jammed locks, mostly) could be undone using the Mechanical Repair skill. It's something that a lot of players didn't even realize was possible, because it's much easier to just reload a quicksave than it is to cycle through other skills or abilities to see if any of them might fix a problem.
Mechanical Repair was nice as far as it went, but since it used the exact same structure as the other skills, it didn't do much to discourage scumming. It bailed out one or two bucketfuls of water, but the boat still sank.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Drool » October 19th, 2016, 8:06 pm

SagaDC wrote:To be fair, some of the critical failure results in Wasteland 2 (jammed locks, mostly) could be undone using the Mechanical Repair skill.
Well, it was like putting a bandage on a sucking chest wound. First, without a perk, you could critically fail the repair roll. And even with a success, it was a one-time repair. A second critical failure put you back in the screwed box.

I suppose giving Mechanical Repair unlimited fixes would work, but it's still not treating the core issue.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Lord of Riva » October 20th, 2016, 1:10 am

Zombra wrote:You know what else would partially solve the problem - at least for me? I just had the thought last night. If critical failures didn't close something forever, but merely closed it off until your character could increase his skill level and come back, that would remove a huge amount of scum incentive.
that would work for me as well

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » October 21st, 2016, 10:40 am

Gillsing made a cool suggestion in another thread: random lockboxes appearing in random encounters. Since saving is disabled in these encounters, scumming would become impossible - at least during these sequences - and help habituate the player to failure. Plus, since there would be a theoretically infinite number of them, the player could stop feeling like he'd "missed" a safe, since there would always be more.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » October 21st, 2016, 2:55 pm

I still fail to see why anyone cares about what someone else is doing to abuse a system. All of these elaborate ideas, all of them requiring resources and testing, and for what? To deal with people who like to save scum as part of THEIR game.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » October 21st, 2016, 3:16 pm

paultakeda wrote:people like to save scum
No, we don't. You'll need to get that through your head before having any chance of contributing to the conversation.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by marceror » October 21st, 2016, 4:13 pm

Zombra wrote:
SagaDC wrote:To be fair, some of the critical failure results in Wasteland 2 (jammed locks, mostly) could be undone using the Mechanical Repair skill. It's something that a lot of players didn't even realize was possible, because it's much easier to just reload a quicksave than it is to cycle through other skills or abilities to see if any of them might fix a problem.
Mechanical Repair was nice as far as it went, but since it used the exact same structure as the other skills, it didn't do much to discourage scumming. It bailed out one or two bucketfuls of water, but the boat still sank.
Now it's pretty easy to get a perk that ensures mechanical repair never has a critical failure, so that helps. And eventually it's possible to get the same thing for lockpicking and safecracking - 1 perk for both.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Juris » October 21st, 2016, 4:14 pm

Permanently locking people out with a random % of failure is just aggravating, especially if you miss a unique piece of equipment.

Possible fixes: 1) Allow players to try again after a certain amount of time - this has been done in other games. Pro: Gets rid of save scumming; Cons: Can really make the game a bore having to wait or return to an area just to open a single lock

2) Allow multiple skills to always apply - W2 let you use mechanical repair once to fix the lock, and sometimes you could bash down a door. This was a good start but why not also allow for bashing open a lock or blowing open a lock every time, with a % chance of damaging the contents based on skill. Pro: Encourages a balance of skills; Con: You might destroy a unique piece of equipment unless the Devs were nice and made it indestructible (certainly this should be done for items required to complete the game)

I'd go with 2) myself. I'd live with destroying the Sweater of Mr. Rodgers if I use a blowtorch to open the dresser ;)

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gillsing » October 21st, 2016, 7:33 pm

marceror wrote:Now it's pretty easy to get a perk that ensures mechanical repair never has a critical failure, so that helps.
I was going to use that to repair the locks that my container-opener broke, but when I realised that I only got one chance to repair each lock I also realised why the perk for Mechanical Repair only required level 3, and not level 10, like Master Thief. Because it's practically useless. Placing the Master Thief perk at level 10 also makes trinkets useless for anyone with the perk, so that's another kick in the pants.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by dorkboy » October 21st, 2016, 7:48 pm

They should just do away with locked containers and all skills pertaining to opening them, because apparently that's what people want. :P
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gillsing » October 21st, 2016, 8:08 pm

I would be fine with that as well. Worked quite well in both of the Diablo games I played. No save-scumming in those games! Well, at least as far as I know.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Grohal » October 21st, 2016, 8:41 pm

Gillsing wrote:I would be fine with that as well. Worked quite well in both of the Diablo games I played. No save-scumming in those games! Well, at least as far as I know.
Well in the Diablo games you are flooded with items (thats one part of the reason I never liked ARPGs as much as "real" RPGs).
In the scarce of the wasteland that would be ridiculous - loot needs to be scare and it needs to be hard to get, no one would give an survival important item without a fight and/or leave it laying in the open for everyone to just grab.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by dorkboy » October 21st, 2016, 8:43 pm

Gillsing wrote:I would be fine with that as well. Worked quite well in both of the Diablo games I played. No save-scumming in those games! Well, at least as far as I know.
Well, the one I played had explosive barrels and trapped chests, so they'd probably have to do away with that. Would just be frustrating and unfair otherwise. ;)
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by marceror » October 21st, 2016, 9:35 pm

Gillsing wrote:
marceror wrote:Now it's pretty easy to get a perk that ensures mechanical repair never has a critical failure, so that helps.
I was going to use that to repair the locks that my container-opener broke, but when I realised that I only got one chance to repair each lock I also realised why the perk for Mechanical Repair only required level 3, and not level 10, like Master Thief. Because it's practically useless. Placing the Master Thief perk at level 10 also makes trinkets useless for anyone with the perk, so that's another kick in the pants.
I don't see how a chance to fix a lock with zero of a critical failure, which you can have on a character by level 4, is practically "useless"! If you have reasonably high skill critical chance should be relatively unlikely, and so you will have to fail an unlikely check twice to not be able to open something. That's a marked improvement over what we had before.

But feel free to completely miss the usefulness of that.

As for master thief, yes, you'll have to invest extra points to NEVER critically fail on a lock OR a safe. Seems like that should have a cost.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gillsing » October 21st, 2016, 10:43 pm

Grohal wrote:Well in the Diablo games you are flooded with items (thats one part of the reason I never liked ARPGs as much as "real" RPGs).
In the scarce of the wasteland that would be ridiculous - loot needs to be scare and it needs to be hard to get, no one would give an survival important item without a fight and/or leave it laying in the open for everyone to just grab.
I feel flooded with items in Wasteland 2. And I think it's pretty clear that raiders aren't into this 'survival' thing. They just want to have a bit of fun before they die. That's why they put medical stuff and ammo in boxes that aren't locked or guarded. Kicking it forward! :)
dorkboy wrote:Well, the one I played had explosive barrels and trapped chests, so they'd probably have to do away with that. Would just be frustrating and unfair otherwise. ;)
Oh, I forgot about having to keep a stack of keys around for all those locked chests. But you see, that's how it's done: Relatively effortless, much like the rewards in most locked containers are relatively worthless. Balance.
marceror wrote:I don't see how a chance to fix a lock with zero of a critical failure, which you can have on a character by level 4, is practically "useless"! If you have reasonably high skill critical chance should be relatively unlikely, and so you will have to fail an unlikely check twice to not be able to open something. That's a marked improvement over what we had before.

But feel free to completely miss the usefulness of that.
If I'm so unlikely to critically fail that Handyman is 'actually useful', then I'm also so unlikely to critically fail that I might as well reload the game on the rare occasion when I do critically fail. It's almost like no save-scumming at all. :D
marceror wrote:As for master thief, yes, you'll have to invest extra points to NEVER critically fail on a lock OR a safe. Seems like that should have a cost.
I think it's pretty lame that trinkets don't apply to maxed skills. They changed that in Bard's Tale, so that tokens could bring attributes up to 23. Or 25, in case there was a second bonus involved. It's just so aggravating to see one's efforts be penalized by having otherwise precious loot become pointless. A kick in the pants.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » October 21st, 2016, 11:31 pm

marceror wrote:Now it's pretty easy to get a perk that ensures mechanical repair never has a critical failure, so that helps. And eventually it's possible to get the same thing for lockpicking and safecracking - 1 perk for both.
I got those Perks as soon as humanly possible. (Strange behavior for someone who just loves to save scum, eh? :)) Sadly, Gillsing is right about Handyman - the ability to retry a lock one time without scumming is just prolonging the inevitable. And Master Thief of course stops scumming cold (for those skills), but by the time I got it, the game was practically over.
Juris wrote:Permanently locking people out with a random % of failure is just aggravating, especially if you miss a unique piece of equipment.

Possible fixes: 1) Allow players to try again after a certain amount of time - this has been done in other games. Pro: Gets rid of save scumming; Cons: Can really make the game a bore having to wait or return to an area just to open a single lock

2) Allow multiple skills to always apply - W2 let you use mechanical repair once to fix the lock, and sometimes you could bash down a door. This was a good start but why not also allow for bashing open a lock or blowing open a lock every time, with a % chance of damaging the contents based on skill. Pro: Encourages a balance of skills; Con: You might destroy a unique piece of equipment unless the Devs were nice and made it indestructible (certainly this should be done for items required to complete the game)

I'd go with 2) myself. I'd live with destroying the Sweater of Mr. Rodgers if I use a blowtorch to open the dresser ;)
For me, 2) isn't that great. Why would I press the "destroy most of the loot" button when I could press the "retry and get it all" button instead? 1) on the other hand sounds awesome. If I have the option of coming back after levelling or increasing the skill, I can just move on when I critically fail and maybe come back later. It's when the game says "Now you can NEVER have this" that I reach for F9.
Grohal wrote:Well in the Diablo games you are flooded with items. In the scarce of the wasteland that would be ridiculous - loot needs to be scare and it needs to be hard to get, no one would give an survival important item without a fight and/or leave it laying in the open for everyone to just grab.
Strongly disagree. The original Wasteland wasn't about scarcity at all, and even Wasteland 2 isn't anywhere close to being a "survival" game. The open spaces are thick with hordes of predatory mutants growing fat off of eating each other. Life isn't pretty, but it is thriving. W2 pays lip service to scarcity as part of the story, but the gameplay practice completely contradicts this (which is OK).
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