Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » May 1st, 2017, 2:28 pm

Zombra wrote:
April 28th, 2017, 11:21 pm
A game where saving is free and easy whenever you want is a design that does have implications. I don't want those implications forced on me any more than the other side wants my preferences forced on them.
Fundamental disagreement there for me. Game designers who put in a save anywhere means they don't have to consider it at all when it comes to design. They could, but they don't have to. Instituting limited saves has direct implications on game design because you now have to determine when and where to provide that option. Checkpoints on games on rails is one example, where the saves should be spaced far enough apart to be considered challenging.

In other words, save anywhere can be outside the game and dependent on the player's own personal style of play (therefore not affecting anyone else's), whereas limited saving will always be part of the game.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 1st, 2017, 3:33 pm

We've had this argument before.

If A influences design, then Not-A also influences design. Either way, it has an effect on gameplay.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » May 1st, 2017, 6:22 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 3:33 pm
We've had this argument before.

If A influences design, then Not-A also influences design. Either way, it has an effect on gameplay.
Yes, we have. Not-A only influences game design if it is taken into account. Consider the console game emulators for the NES, like NESticle. It introduced the save anywhere function, which made the games easier to come back to and play. Did it make it easier for other people to play the games and potentially score higher than they ever could have as they could resume if they failed? Yes. If not used, can a player play the game as originally intended when no save was considered? Yes. What changed? The player making an active choice on how difficult they want to make it for themselves. The game design? Nope.

Let's say the WL3 game designer is told to assumee the following: the game is automatically saved on map entry/exit (like WL1). There are no other slots.

The game designer can then design a game with that in mind. Now if the game allows for a save anywhere function, it is there as a convenience feature for the player to use (or exploit), but it will have zero bearing on the game design. What did have bearing was the assumption of a single autosave slot on map change.

You can set the parameter to any limitation and save anywhere remains a viable (if exploitable) option for the player. If you tell the game designer they can save anywhere, then they can attempt to design a game that remains difficult with this in mind (similar to how the new X-COM prerolled all moves on the map so saving during combat only lets you try different combinations to find an optimal set of steps for those who care to do so), but frankly, that's a waste of effort. I'd say design based on map entry/exit and leave it at that. Meanwhile, save anywhere remains an outside function for convenience.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 1st, 2017, 6:54 pm

If they want to provide a solid, coherent game design and then also add an external utility that lets players ruin it, that's fine with me.

Anything that can be accessed in-game with a single button press does not qualify as an external utility, particularly if it has such a drastic effect on gameplay as the save system does.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Ranger1 » May 1st, 2017, 8:12 pm

I prefer save anywhere except for combat, as long as the designers don't force me to go through a long conversation chain again and again before I can try the combat again. (I'm looking at you Pillars of Eternity) That just kills my motivation to keep playing.

I don't know why developers don't create a save for the player automatically every time combat starts. Just have a special combat initiated save slot.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 1st, 2017, 10:49 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 6:54 pm
If they want to provide a solid, coherent game design and then also add an external utility that lets players ruin it, that's fine with me.

Anything that can be accessed in-game with a single button press does not qualify as an external utility, particularly if it has such a drastic effect on gameplay as the save system does.
Sigh.. I am so over this argument. The save system doesn't affect gameplay. It is outside the gameplay.

Set the game to a difficulty. This is a roleplaying game with "Skill levels" assume that players of level X will be at this point and thus make it to Y difficulty (where Y is how hard it is for a level X player).

Then add the save system onto that, add an ironman mode, and allow people to play how they want.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Drool » May 1st, 2017, 11:08 pm

Gizmo wrote:
April 30th, 2017, 9:21 pm
I know, but I consider all-access as a kind of winning.
Huh. So when I watched a playthrough of Amnesia: a Machine for Pigs, I won the game?

Cool. That means I've also beaten I Want To Be the Guy and Kaizo Mario World without dying once! And I beat Morrowind in 5 minutes. That dude with the TAS record on it should give me credit.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 1st, 2017, 11:28 pm

Woolfe wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 10:49 pm
The save system doesn't affect gameplay.
Of course it does. All accessible systems inform player behavior.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » May 2nd, 2017, 8:00 am

Zombra wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 11:28 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 10:49 pm
The save system doesn't affect gameplay.
Of course it does. All accessible systems inform player behavior.
"Inform player behavior". No one denies that. The point is that save anywhere informs the player to behave however they want without being limited by an enforced limited save that WILL affect game design from the perspective of the game designer whereas save anywhere removes that from the game designer's plate and onto the player, who can decide whether or not to use the save for convenience or exploit it to churn through the game.

Any good game design will still make a game hard even with save anywhere making it "easier". If a player decides to scum their way to victory: 1) let them; and 2) scumming in itself is not "easy" as it requires a repetitive process that would drive some people crazy.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by xapoc » May 2nd, 2017, 9:07 am

As someone that plays games for over 20 years, let people decide when and where they want to save.
Wasteland 2 save system is fine. If someone seeks greater challenge, let devs make iron man mode where game saves only at entrance or exit of existing map.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 2nd, 2017, 10:03 am

paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 8:00 am
The point is that save anywhere informs the player to behave however they want without being limited
Naturally. The question is whether "no limits on the player" is a good thing in challenging software entertainment package design. I submit, and have always maintained, that it is absolutely not.
paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 8:00 am
Any good game design will still make a game hard even with save anywhere making it "easier".
Utter horsefeathers, rubbish, nonsense. You're saying outright that, by definition, every roguelike game ever is badly designed; Resident Evil's typerwriter ribbons are badly designed; and every other example in history that doesn't use your One True System. Talk about limited.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gizmo » May 2nd, 2017, 10:08 am

paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 8:00 am
"Inform player behavior". No one denies that. The point is that save anywhere informs the player to behave however they want without being limited by an enforced limited save that WILL affect game design from the perspective of the game designer whereas save anywhere removes that from the game designer's plate and onto the player, who can decide whether or not to use the save for convenience or exploit it to churn through the game.I am of
As much as I might like to ponder anti-savescum methods, I do agree that the devs should not concern themselves with players who savescum.

I prefer the save-anywhere option, but I cannot shake the suspicion that once baby-stepping is possible, that devs do actually concern themselves with it, and design for it. So while I prefer to have the ability to save anywhere, I better respect restricted saves, and generally find the game to be far more intense entertainment. I haven't played a more interesting game than Legend of Grimrock on Ironman w/ single use crystals. 8-)
[Took me over two months to complete it too; mainly because I didn't have a lot of time to sink into it... just a few hours a week.]
Zombra wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 10:03 am
Utter horsefeathers, rubbish, and nonsense. You're saying outright that every roguelike game ever is badly designed; Resident Evil's typerwriter ribbons are badly designed by definition; and every other example in history that doesn't use your One True System. Talk about limited.
Outcast 8-)

In Outcast, the player character is given an alien spiritual artifact, called a Gaamsav. He is instructed to squeeze it while concentrating, and told that the artifact will record a character's essence; ie essential game-state. It's the save-game feature as an inventory item. 8-)

:lol: So imagine if that concept was used, and the item given weight, and the ability to be stolen or lost; or willingly tossed away... Not entirely unlike some of the optional Lands of Lore interface items... like the lamp, the compass, the automap [atlas], and even the spell scroll.
[Semi-seriously suggesting this; without it BT4 could be made to have a constant gameworld —like the early games.]
Last edited by Gizmo on May 2nd, 2017, 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 2nd, 2017, 4:00 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 11:28 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 1st, 2017, 10:49 pm
The save system doesn't affect gameplay.
Of course it does. All accessible systems inform player behavior.
Can't help but notice you ignored the rest of my comment.

Build the difficulty to the level. Then Add the Save Function. Save function includes open slather and Ironman.(And others inbetween?)

Then the player chooses the one that they prefer.

This is a single player game. We are not playing for sheep stations. Hence how someone chooses to play their game is unimportant. If they save scum then good on them. If they ironman it through in one sitting then good on them.

Saving is not a function of GAMEPLAY. It is a function that supports gameplay.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 2nd, 2017, 5:04 pm

Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 4:00 pm
This is a single player game. We are not playing for sheep stations. Hence how someone chooses to play their game is unimportant. If they save scum then good on them. If they ironman it through in one sitting then good on them.
People who want to hack a game to make it behave however they want? Fine with me. That doesn't mean that building a game ground up to give the player everything on a platter is a good idea.
Saving is not a function of GAMEPLAY. It is a function that supports gameplay.
Paul has been saying the same thing for years, and it's been irrelevant the entire time and is still irrelevant. Since you guys insist on mincing words, I am not concerned about "game design" any more. I am concerned about "challenging entertainment software package design". If you don't want to call it "gameplay", fine. Call it a blue horse if you want to. It still is part of the package I am paying for and it still directly. affects. my. game. experience.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 5:04 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 4:00 pm
This is a single player game. We are not playing for sheep stations. Hence how someone chooses to play their game is unimportant. If they save scum then good on them. If they ironman it through in one sitting then good on them.
People who want to hack a game to make it behave however they want? Fine with me. That doesn't mean that building a game ground up to give the player everything on a platter is a good idea.
False equivalency. I am not suggesting giving them everything on a platter. This is a single part that has a REAL effect outside of the ability to "cheat" that being to SAVE THE BLOODY GAME! :shock: :roll: :lol:
Zombra wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 5:04 pm
Saving is not a function of GAMEPLAY. It is a function that supports gameplay.
Paul has been saying the same thing for years, and it's been irrelevant the entire time and is still irrelevant. Since you guys insist on mincing words, I am not concerned about "game design" any more. I am concerned about "challenging entertainment software package design". If you don't want to call it "gameplay", fine. Call it a blue horse if you want to. It still is part of the package I am paying for and it still directly. affects. my. game. experience.
Sigh... The only reason it affects your gameplay is because you choose to let it, lets face it you choose to cheat because the ability is there. You have admitted it yourself you are a dirty cheater. :P Don't worry, so am I at times. Most of us are. Your complaint is that you don't want to be burdened with the need to make a choice, rather you want to just play the game. I don't have a problem with that. I want you to have an Ironman mode, so that you can experience the game as you wish.

Now how about you return the favour, I don't reload all the time, but I do sometimes. Sometimes I don't feel like losing a particular character(That damn goat), or I misread something and click the wrong answer, or I accidentally hit a wrong button. Or I don't want to go back and replay the whole first chunk of a game with a new party, or, or, or, or, or, or, or.... ETC.

So let me have my fun, and you can have yours.

I want Save almost anywhere, with the option for an IRONMAN mode.

Heck I would be happy to see it tied to achievements even. Paradox do something like that. No achievements unless in Ironman mode.

Seriously if you target the game at a difficulty based on the LEVEL of your Team, then add the save modes afterwards, then how does that not achieve what we both want?
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 2nd, 2017, 8:11 pm

Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
Zombra wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 5:04 pm
People who want to hack a game to make it behave however they want? Fine with me. That doesn't mean that building a game ground up to give the player everything on a platter is a good idea.
False equivalency. I am not suggesting giving them everything on a platter. This is a single part that has a REAL effect outside of the ability to "cheat" that being to SAVE THE BLOODY GAME! :shock: :roll: :lol:
I'm not drawing an equivalency of any kind :? I'm saying that it is not always in the player's best interest to let him choose moment to moment the outcome of every situation.
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
Sigh... The only reason it affects your gameplay is because you choose to let it, lets face it you choose to cheat because the ability is there.
No, but even assuming that's true, unfettered choice in games - excuse me, in challenging entertainment software packages - is not a good thing! You wouldn't put in "press K to instantly kill every monster on the screen" or "press space bar to advance a character level" and expect it to be well received. Yet unlimited quicksaving at any time is just as heavy handed and disastrous to challenge as these examples.
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
I want you to have an Ironman mode, so that you can experience the game as you wish.
I don't want an ironman mode. True ironman in a traditional RPG is madness, an extreme challenge for veterans who know the mechanics and challenges inside and out. What I really want are mechanics that don't make save scumming profitable or desirable in the first place. The way containers were handled in W2 for example screamed to be save scummed. On the other hand saving wasn't allowed mid-combat and nobody is complaining about it. It worked just fine. (Seriously, did you have a problem with it?) I want the whole game to work just fine and not scream to be save scummed.
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
Now how about you return the favour, I don't reload all the time, but I do sometimes. Sometimes I don't feel like losing a particular character(That damn goat), or I misread something and click the wrong answer, or I accidentally hit a wrong button. Or I don't want to go back and replay the whole first chunk of a game with a new party, or, or, or, or, or, or, or.... ETC.
I get that there are good reasons to want to save the game. I'd like to see some understanding on the other side that there are good reasons to limit player behavior.
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
I want Save almost anywhere, with the option for an IRONMAN mode.
Curious ... what do you mean "almost anywhere"?
Woolfe wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 7:39 pm
Seriously if you target the game at a difficulty based on the LEVEL of your Team, then add the save modes afterwards, then how does that not achieve what we both want?
If the save modes are thoughtful and complement the game design well without rewarding boring behavior, I'm all for it.
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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » May 2nd, 2017, 9:01 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 5:04 pm
it still directly. affects. my. game. experience.
Only. if. you. let. it.

Again, consider NES emulators that allow save anywhere. The games were never designed to be played that way but in doing so it opened up a larger audience. Some people will ironman it and play as meant to be: no saves, no do-overs. Others will save state only because RL calls. And others? Others will reload. Most will, in fact, and of them, some will scum like crazy. The game itself? Totally agnostic. The gameplay? Totally player choice.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gizmo » May 2nd, 2017, 9:12 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:01 pm
Only. if. you. let. it.
And if the developer adjusts their design to suit arbitrary saves? What then? [And by that I mean tailors or even removes puzzle & combat situations that could be made pointless via arbitrary saves.]

(Surely some mean this very outcome, when suggesting that it affects their game experience.)

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by paultakeda » May 2nd, 2017, 9:20 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:12 pm
paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:01 pm
Only. if. you. let. it.
And if the developer adjusts their design to suit arbitrary saves? What then? [And by that I mean tailors or even removes puzzle & combat situations that could be made pointless via arbitrary saves.]

(Surely some mean this very outcome, when suggesting that it affects their game experience.)
That would be the dev's choice, sure. The point is that arbitrary saves basically are the only form of save that CAN be removed from design and left solely to the player. It can, of course, be taken into account by the developer, but it doesn't have to be, unlike limited/restricted saves, which must inherently be part of design/gameplay.

If you were to ask what I want of WL3, I would say base the gameplay on map entry/exit.

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Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gizmo » May 2nd, 2017, 9:24 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:20 pm
That would be the dev's choice, sure.
And this was the point being made... That having it at all could affect everyone's game —whether they use it or not.

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