Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

Moderator: Ranger Team Alpha

Post Reply
User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5720
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 3rd, 2017, 8:09 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 6:09 pm
Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 4:38 pm
@Zombra What are your thoughts on a Quick-Save feature that costs XP to use?
I love the idea. I am also certain that the "other side" would find it completely unacceptable. :P
Wouldn't bother me in the least

I don't use Quicksave. Get rid of it altogether IMO

Now if I lost xp because of saving and loading. Then yep I'd be pissed. I have had days where I get on, then 5 minutes later am off and then on, and then off etc.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3334
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gizmo » May 3rd, 2017, 8:49 pm

Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:09 pm
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 6:09 pm
Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 4:38 pm
@Zombra What are your thoughts on a Quick-Save feature that costs XP to use?
I love the idea. I am also certain that the "other side" would find it completely unacceptable. :P
Wouldn't bother me in the least
I should clarify. Image

The intention was that it would be the only save option outside of quitting. It would exist so that players could balance the need vs cost of creating a save; and the fact that it cost even just a bit of xp, would make it difficult to gain XP by [ab]using it, and would make baby-stepping a costly activity that would tend to curb itself.

But sometimes the save is worth it.

**Incidentally... this option is not one that I was ever fond of myself; but I see the utility of it.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm

paultakeda wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 7:05 pm
No, no, quite the opposite. I am saying that the game as designed can function quite happily with save anywhere provided the basis for happy is contingent on player behavior aligning with player desire.
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
Who cares. If they want to abuse the system to allow them to get the "best" result, fuck em. It doesn't affect YOU in any way.
Allowing the player instant gratification for whatever they desire is horrible, horrible design. And yes, it does affect me, substantially, when the design promotes this.
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
If it is important enough, Joe blogs will find a way
This is a worthless argument as it can apply to everything. Might as well have no rules at all because they can be hacked.
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
WL2 had almost anywhere... hence almost anywhere.
So you are OK with a limited save system?
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
Shrug. Why does it matter if a player is playing using boring behaviour? So long as it doesn't affect your game why do you care?
It absolutely does affect my game if boring behavior is rewarded. When a game tells me, "do boring things to win", that is very bad.
Image

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9117
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Drool » May 3rd, 2017, 10:03 pm

Gizmo wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 9:54 pm
I was about to say the same. I liked that about the game... IRRC didn't they remove that with a patch?
Not that I'm aware of?
undecaf wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 11:55 pm
By the way, I haven't played it for a while, but I remembered something.... Wasn't there some kind of save counter in WL2:DC? That if you saved X number of times within a map you needed to exit and re-enter the map to be able to save again?
Not that I'm aware of.
Crosmando wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:03 am
I am currently playing DOOM and to be honest the lack of save anywhere really infuriates me and is a dampener on what is otherwise a very fun game. I managed to find a bunch of secrets but afterwards I died and the last checkpoint was quite a while before, and I wasn't able to find the secrets again.
Ouch. As restricted as Murdered: Soul Suspect is, at least it saves every time you find a memory or secret, even if you have to replay some walking or "combat".
Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 4:38 pm
@Zombra What are your thoughts on a Quick-Save feature that costs XP to use?
Awful. Just more punishment of the player for having the temerity to play the game.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
undecaf
Explorer
Posts: 395
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 5:48 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by undecaf » May 3rd, 2017, 10:58 pm

Drool wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 10:03 pm
undecaf wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 11:55 pm
By the way, I haven't played it for a while, but I remembered something.... Wasn't there some kind of save counter in WL2:DC? That if you saved X number of times within a map you needed to exit and re-enter the map to be able to save again?
Not that I'm aware of.
Strange. I am pretty sure I'm not misremembering getting those "You can not save at this time" messages in the Arizona maps (and having the inability reset with exit/re-enter).
Gizmo wrote:
May 2nd, 2017, 10:08 am
As much as I might like to ponder anti-savescum methods, I do agree that the devs should not concern themselves with players who savescum.
Agreed.
"A human being in his last extremity IS a bag of shit."

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5720
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 4th, 2017, 12:02 am

Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:49 pm
I should clarify. Image

The intention was that it would be the only save option outside of quitting. It would exist so that players could balance the need vs cost of creating a save; and the fact that it cost even just a bit of xp, would make it difficult to gain XP by [ab]using it, and would make baby-stepping a costly activity that would tend to curb itself.

But sometimes the save is worth it.

**Incidentally... this option is not one that I was ever fond of myself; but I see the utility of it.
Indeed, then I am against the above.
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
paultakeda wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 7:05 pm
No, no, quite the opposite. I am saying that the game as designed can function quite happily with save anywhere provided the basis for happy is contingent on player behavior aligning with player desire.
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
Who cares. If they want to abuse the system to allow them to get the "best" result, fuck em. It doesn't affect YOU in any way.
Allowing the player instant gratification for whatever they desire is horrible, horrible design. And yes, it does affect me, substantially, when the design promotes this.
Only if the player cheats the system by saving and reloading.
You keep saying it is horrible design, and we keep saying it is not. A save system, unless explicitly within the gameworld (ala Typewriter reels) is a system that is separate from Gameplay. Any misuse of it is essentially cheating. If someone wants to misuse it and cheat, then let them, their experience will be less than those who don't choose to do it.
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
If it is important enough, Joe blogs will find a way
This is a worthless argument as it can apply to everything. Might as well have no rules at all because they can be hacked.
As worthless as "You can save anywhere therefore it affects difficulty."
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
WL2 had almost anywhere... hence almost anywhere.
So you are OK with a limited save system?
I deal with it where I have to. In this case it was not onerous.
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
Shrug. Why does it matter if a player is playing using boring behaviour? So long as it doesn't affect your game why do you care?
It absolutely does affect my game if boring behavior is rewarded. When a game tells me, "do boring things to win", that is very bad.
It isn't telling you that. You are telling you that. The game is saying here I am play me. Oh and here is how you can save. If you choose to cheat and reload etc by going into a menu and specifically selecting load game. Then you are cheating, and hey if you WANT to do that, then knock yourself out. But unless the devs make it part of the gameplay, then it has nothing to do with the gameplay.

I respect and agree with your opinion on most things Zombra, but not this, and as we are arguing in circles I am not going to continue this with you. Unless there is something new brought to the table.

You want limits.
I don't.

I am happy for limits to be optional, or even default, providing I can disable those limits if I choose.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Remo » May 4th, 2017, 12:53 am

Woolfe wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:02 am
It isn't telling you that. You are telling you that. The game is saying here I am play me. Oh and here is how you can save. If you choose to cheat and reload etc by going into a menu and specifically selecting load game. Then you are cheating, and hey if you WANT to do that, then knock yourself out. But unless the devs make it part of the gameplay, then it has nothing to do with the gameplay.
Exactly, I miss the time when games had built-in cheats, and love those that include in-game consuls. My experience isn't limited by additional options, and isn't lessened because of someone else play style..
Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:49 pm
The intention was that it would be the only save option outside of quitting. It would exist so that players could balance the need vs cost of creating a save; and the fact that it cost even just a bit of xp, would make it difficult to gain XP by [ab]using it, and would make baby-stepping a costly activity that would tend to curb itself.
What it would do is punish people who can't finish the game in one play-through (virtually everyone), allowing people to scum by keeping the game running in the background (those with strong PCs who keep them running 24/7). Best intentions and all...

Btw, here Is a quick and rough break down of various save systems pro/cons.

User avatar
Gizmo
Grandmaster
Posts: 3334
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 6:25 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Gizmo » May 4th, 2017, 2:07 am

Remo wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:53 am
Gizmo wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:49 pm
The intention was that it would be the only save option outside of quitting.
What it would do is punish people who can't finish the game in one play-through (virtually everyone)
Please explain that. I cannot see the logic there. What does finishing the game in one session [or not] have to do with an optional
[, and punishing? :? ] Quick Save feature?
Woolfe wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:02 am
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
Allowing the player instant gratification for whatever they desire is horrible, horrible design. And yes, it does affect me, substantially, when the design promotes this.
Only if the player cheats the system by saving and reloading.
You keep saying it is horrible design, and we keep saying it is not.
Rather than repeatedly saying, "it's not!"... does no one else try to understand why Zombra is saying it is?

**As I understand it [and agree with it], the issue is not with how others play the game, but is with how the game gets designed to be played —and that can affect everyone... because it affects the game itself.

So imagine for a moment there are hints of deathtraps [Could be like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeDKDVzPWy0 ]
Consider the implications of being able to save every step through an area, and being able not only to reload when the trap is sprung, but able to test all possible solutions one at a time, and then reload to solve it on the "first" try. What's the point of bothering to make such a challenge then?
(...and if they decide not to bother, then we all miss out on it.)

Pickpocketing [not something I expect in BT4, though it could be in WL3], being able to cheat at skill rolls might well be the reason for skill thresholds instead... and the intrinsic loss of depth that they bring with them. Lock picking too; when the player can repeat the test indefinitely via save & reload... wouldn't they just change the design to some silly minigame, or a threshold that prevents attempts until they are guaranteed —haven't they already done this before? This is the issue as I see it.

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Remo » May 4th, 2017, 3:24 am

For the same reason you "don't try to understand" why we say it is not.. As noted the pro and cons are well known, we just disagree on what lends best here. Based on my years of experience in such games the fleeting novelty of such mechanics are soon replaced by constant tedium, and no amount of theoretical hair splinting Ad nauseam will change that.
Gizmo wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 2:07 am
Please explain that. I cannot see the logic there. What does finishing the game in one session [or not] have to do with an optional
[, and punishing? :? ] Quick Save feature?
Sorry, I skimmed the part of this being on top of save/quit, but still I am against it. My years of experience taught me to save and save often, if only for the simple reason that even the most polished games tend to have bugs. (Not to speak of post release version or mods).

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 4th, 2017, 8:33 am

Well ... here is something new.
Woolfe wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:02 am
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
Woolfe wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 8:07 pm
Shrug. Why does it matter if a player is playing using boring behaviour? So long as it doesn't affect your game why do you care?
It absolutely does affect my game if boring behavior is rewarded. When a game tells me, "do boring things to win", that is very bad.
It isn't telling you that. You are telling you that. The game is saying here I am play me.
What you are saying here is essentially "There is no such thing as an incentive."
Image

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5720
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » May 4th, 2017, 6:26 pm

Zombra wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 8:33 am
Well ... here is something new.
Woolfe wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 12:02 am
Zombra wrote:
May 3rd, 2017, 9:13 pm
It absolutely does affect my game if boring behavior is rewarded. When a game tells me, "do boring things to win", that is very bad.
It isn't telling you that. You are telling you that. The game is saying here I am play me.
What you are saying here is essentially "There is no such thing as an incentive."
That isn't new... It is simply wrong.
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 4th, 2017, 10:38 pm

Woolfe wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 6:26 pm
Zombra wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 8:33 am
What you are saying here is essentially "There is no such thing as an incentive."
That isn't new... It is simply wrong.
Hmm. Then how about "I am totally OK with strong incentives for boring behavior." :?:
Image

User avatar
Drool
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9117
Joined: March 17th, 2012, 9:58 pm
Location: Under Tenebrosia, doing shots with Sceadu.

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Drool » May 4th, 2017, 11:15 pm

We're kinda going in circles at this point. Many of these issues came up in the beginning of the thread, especially on Page 2.
Alwa nasci korliri das.

I neither work, nor speak, for inXile.

Not too late; make it eight!

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 4th, 2017, 11:35 pm

Hey, it wasn't me who resurrected the thread. I'm happy to let it sink back into oblivion. Right after this very post. :)
Image

Remo
Scholar
Posts: 144
Joined: April 24th, 2017, 3:16 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Remo » May 29th, 2017, 2:18 am

Drool wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 11:15 pm
We're kinda going in circles at this point. Many of these issues came up in the beginning of the thread, especially on Page 2.
Indeed. And since the discussion is often sidestep to challenge in games in general, with some posters feeling they are not being heard or their arguments are not being understood. I will leave this recentish video which cover that common argument about challenge in mainstream games as well as touch on the topic of save systems.

Overall there is no right and wrong, only individual preferences as to various gameplay elements and best way how to achieve them. I was reminded of this topic while playing 'Shadow Tactics: Blades Of The Shogun' (Sort of tactical puzzle game akin to Commandos 2 ) where not only they do not try to curtail you from "Save Scumming" but remind you to save and save often with a timer! However, they keep track of various parameter of how you go about your mission ( including the number of save/loads you make ) and encourage you to try new approaches and master the game, rewarding those who experimented and exercised observation and patience. For my money this is the gold standard of design, unlike most of the "neo-challenge" designs which are often offer difficulty for the sake of difficulty or offering punishing mechanics that more often than not are there to hide lack of content and pad gameplay time with hours upon hours of busywork (e.g. like in FTL introducing new mechanics in the middle, which you can only learn by forcing hours of grind upon you )
Zombra wrote:
May 4th, 2017, 11:35 pm
Hey, it wasn't me who resurrected the thread. I'm happy to let it sink back into oblivion. Right after this very post. :)
You just had to say the last word, eh :D
Last edited by Remo on May 30th, 2017, 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » May 29th, 2017, 6:41 am

Yep :lol:
Image

Archangelst
Initiate
Posts: 2
Joined: July 18th, 2017, 12:41 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Archangelst » July 18th, 2017, 1:10 pm

The fix for this is to do nothing. If you don't want it to impact your game, then don't do it. And why is there so much concern about what other people do in their own, private, games.

User avatar
Zombra
Global Moderator
Posts: 6008
Joined: March 8th, 2012, 10:50 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Zombra » July 18th, 2017, 3:38 pm

Archangelst wrote:
July 18th, 2017, 1:10 pm
The fix for this is to do nothing. If you don't want it to impact your game, then don't do it. And why is there so much concern about what other people do in their own, private, games.
That's not the fix, and no one cares what you do in your own private game. Read the thread.
Image

User avatar
Lakstoties
Novice
Posts: 34
Joined: August 2nd, 2017, 7:17 am

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Lakstoties » August 4th, 2017, 11:52 pm

Head first into the minefield...

Save-scumming is NOT the issue, but the major symptom of a design flaw with the game when it comes to general challenges. More specifically non-combat skill challenges.

There is a solution to this that is two fold.

1. Get rid of the ability to game the single central pseudo random number generator.
Every new game starts with a random seed as the ID for the "game" run. Every attribute/skill non-combat challenge aspect in the game is represented by a data structure that contains the challenge's unique identifier and a variable that contains the current internal state to use when calculating the next state with the chosen pseudo random number algorithm for challenges. This data structure is saved and maintained between saves after initialization. The initial "seed" for that challenge will be the game random seed XORed a hash of the challenge's ID. Then you use something like an implementation of the Mersenne Twister as the algorithm.

What does this create? A situation where with a given game and a given challenge... The results of a chain of checks will be EXACTLY the same no matter how many times you load it, leave the area and come back, or even what order to you do other things even other challenges. If you want to be successful, you'll need go out, increase your skills, and then attempt it again. Overall, you'll need to do something different with your characters. This destroys quick save/load loops because you CAN'T get different check results without changing skills.

I did something similar for an OpenGL class when getting my masters to help me generate trees. Each tree got a seed, and maintained the internal state for the Mersenne Twister algorithm in use. As long as I used the same seed, I got consistent procedurally generated trees.

2. Get rid of the situations that put people in spots that attempting to game the single central pseudo random number generator feels like the only option.
There's A LOT of situations in Wasteland 2, where you feel you HAVE to game the system to get advantage required to get through the game. Especially, in the later part of the game... You are going up against enemies that will utter destroy you with very little effort and you are left with very few options to counter them. So, losing out on even one non-combat skill challenge feels like you are missing out so much that could help you. As mentioned earlier in the thread... Removing critical failures that completely shutdown the player helps greatly. But, you need a game mechanism to provide diminishing returns for constantly hammering a challenge. So, for each challenge there's a saved difficulty variable and with each critical failure, that difficulty goes up a little bit. This way, you can try your luck with low skill and get lucky, or realize that it might be best to revisit it later. But, you are never completely cut off unless it was your doing.

Apologies for digging it back up, but it just seemed like a situation where many suggestions were just addressing symptoms and not the actual problem. The solution does create a semi-deterministic system, but key information is mostly unknown to the player... So it's random enough.

User avatar
Woolfe
Supreme Jerk
Posts: 5720
Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:42 pm

Re: Save-Scumming and Wasteland 3

Post by Woolfe » August 6th, 2017, 3:39 am

Bloody should apologise.... this may well result in Zombra and I arguing in circles again....

:x :x :x :x

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It's not too late. Make it Eight!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest