Wait. Is this a single-character game??

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Lord of Riva
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Lord of Riva » October 22nd, 2016, 2:04 am

i personally think that would be a good change. (yeah lynch me! :P )

It will be a way more story focussed game (even though as you say it will focus on the Pc)

its something i vastly prefer due to the more elaborate party members. thta said i do understand why that would be annoying for most people.

its one thing to change the design on a sequel that you make for a decades old game and one that is pretty recent.

We will see how it turns out. Im probably in either way.

I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by kilobug » October 22nd, 2016, 2:14 am

Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Lord of Riva » October 22nd, 2016, 3:12 am

kilobug wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.
yeah no, its a good point. still this may make or break the game for some. I mean its not as if they wouldnt have gotten the money anyways

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by marceror » October 22nd, 2016, 9:42 am

kilobug wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.
If certain details haven't been decided, they could still pop in here and let us know that. At the same time, this isn't their first rodeo. I have a hard time believing they don't have a vision for how they want these things to work, and they could certainly drop in and share what that vision is, indicating that it is subject to change.

And frankly, even if the answer isn't one a lot of people like, if they can provide some good reasoning for it that may prove helpful to bring folks along with them. Hairbrained Schemes, for example, is making a new Battletech game where you will only be able to bring a lance (4 mechs) into missions. They were very clear about this number from the outset. A lot of folks, myself included, were extremely disappointed by this limitation. HBS provided their reasoning as to why they were doing it this way, however, and it allowed many people to move on and trust that they had a vision a purpose for their design. I still backed Battletech "in spite" of the smaller party, but it was the clear open communication from the developers they allowed me to feel comfortable doing so.

When you know what you're getting yourself into, it's much easier to weigh pros and cons and make an informed decision. But when a developer is tight lipped and apparently thinks it's better to keep fans guessing on the potentially more controversial design decisions, I think that's going to turn a lot of folks off. It certainly does me.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Lord of Riva » October 22nd, 2016, 9:56 am

marceror wrote:
kilobug wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.
If certain details haven't been decided, they could still pop in here and let us know that. At the same time, this isn't their first rodeo. I have a hard time believing they don't have a vision for how they want these things to work, and they could certainly drop in and share what that vision is, indicating that it is subject to change.

And frankly, even if the answer isn't one a lot of people like, if they can provide some good reasoning for it that may prove helpful to bring folks along with them. Hairbrained Schemes, for example, is making a new Battletech game where you will only be able to bring a lance (4 mechs) into missions. They were very clear about this number from the outset. A lot of folks, myself included, were extremely disappointed by this limitation. HBS provided their reasoning as to why they were doing it this way, however, and it allowed many people to move on and trust that they had a vision a purpose for their design. I still backed Battletech "in spite" of the smaller party, but it was the clear open communication from the developers they allowed me to feel comfortable doing so.

When you know what you're getting yourself into, it's much easier to weigh pros and cons and make an informed decision. But when a developer is tight lipped and apparently thinks it's better to keep fans guessing on the potentially more controversial design decisions, I think that's going to turn a lot of folks off. It certainly does me.
yeah HBS is definitely better at being clear on what they are doing. And that succesfully, maybe they should get some tips but i doubt that they change. Thus far they have been exceptionally successful for a company financing itself through crowdfunding, they may even be the most sucessful.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Dork Mage » October 22nd, 2016, 3:51 pm

kilobug wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.
Disagree. InXile has been clear in multiple updates that "you" are the lone survivor of a ranger team that recruits members.

Add a second network team and vehicles and this is WL: The Spinoff.

The networking team play is not a trivial feature addition. What's going to be done with vehicles? (horses in Oblivion?)

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dakkon » October 22nd, 2016, 5:30 pm

Dork Mage wrote:
kilobug wrote:
Lord of Riva wrote:I do not like the ambiguity of InXile though, is there a damn reason why they arent clear? (i mean apart from the obvious cynic/corporate enemy one)
I would say the main reason is that they haven't taken any firm decision on that topic yet. The whole game is still in a very early stage, so things like party size and if you'll be able to create "new" characters or not can still change. But it's my own personal guess, I don't have any special information source.
Disagree. InXile has been clear in multiple updates that "you" are the lone survivor of a ranger team that recruits members.

Add a second network team and vehicles and this is WL: The Spinoff.

The networking team play is not a trivial feature addition. What's going to be done with vehicles? (horses in Oblivion?)
Yes, that is also my impression. It's just clear enough for ass-covering purposes. Judging by the lack of any further clarification, on the fig campaign page or in this topic, they decided to stay quiet on the matter hoping it will blow over.

And all that is aside from whether after such change the game can still be called Wasteland 3.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by marceror » October 22nd, 2016, 7:12 pm

Personally I have no issues with vehicles being added. I actually think that is a pretty cool add on. I'll never complain about some Road Warrior moments being added.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » October 22nd, 2016, 8:08 pm

Well, it's fairly obvious at this point that they're deliberately not answering these questions, for whatever irrelevant reasons.
Kind of a strange thing for a supposed crowdfunding campaign to do, really. :)
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by marceror » October 22nd, 2016, 11:09 pm

dorkboy wrote:Well, it's fairly obvious at this point that they're deliberately not answering these questions, for whatever irrelevant reasons.
Kind of a strange thing for a supposed crowdfunding campaign to do, really. :)
It is clearly a deliberate avoidance of these questions -- it is crowdfunding period after all, and they'd have to be on some bad crack to not be reading these posts about the their next proposed game. They pop in enough to pretty safely confirm that they are watching the forum.

I'm sure they have their reasons for being tight lipped. I hope they are good ones, because I know there are plenty of would be backers who remain on the side lines as a result.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Onholyservicebound » October 23rd, 2016, 8:08 pm

I was so into everything I was reading about this game until reading that "Sole Survivor" bit. Loved Wasteland 2, but I might not even back this one. Don't get me wrong, I'll still probably end up buying it, but the full custom ranger party was really what made this game unique. Without it it's sort of just another Fallout game.
At the least I'd hope for a tavern system like you get in some other games. Sad to see them going backwards in terms of features, I thought the point of kickstarter is so we didn't get more cookie cutter games?
Unless I'm wrong the current system is basically Dragon Age. Where you're a single guy but recruit NPC companions throughout the game.
:|

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Jozape » October 24th, 2016, 12:32 pm

Dork Mage wrote:Disagree. InXile has been clear in multiple updates that "you" are the lone survivor of a ranger team that recruits members.
Update 6 definitely makes the game seem more like a character first game than a party first game. It'll probably have party-based combat, but it sounds like another step in the direction of Fallout. The update doesn't rule out the possibility of creating more rangers after the introduction though, and I maintain the position that making the game character first rather than party first would be bad for co-operative play!

Not that I want co-op -- forget proper co-op -- but it's convenient to use it as leverage. ;)
Dork Mage wrote:What's going to be done with vehicles?
Wasteland 3's campaign page wrote:Another big change this time around will be the addition of vehicles. Your ranger will use your vehicle for travel, storing essential goods, exploration, and survival. Gear up your vehicle well enough, and you’ll be able to use it for movable cover in combat, or – if you’ve installed a turret – deal with fools crazy enough to tangle with the Desert Rangers.
We saw some of this in the concept video, plus one of the vehicles is a companion now. :lol:

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by paultakeda » October 24th, 2016, 10:27 pm

Then it should be called Wasteland: The Colorado Kid instead of Wasteland 3.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Grohal » October 25th, 2016, 1:42 am

paultakeda wrote:Then it should be called Wasteland: The Colorado Kid instead of Wasteland 3.
:mrgreen:

But well, yeah - if we assume the worst this sounds more like a spin-off than a Wasteland 3.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » November 24th, 2016, 8:21 am

http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories ... asteland-3
Keenan wrote:[...] “You’ll still create your party,” he explains. “You’ll have your initial character, and then you will certainly come across a wide range of NPCs throughout the world. But you will be able to adjust the stats of other party members.”
So in other words - no, you won't create your party, you'll create 1 main character, and then modify CNPCs.

"Oh, but that's our definition of 'party based'.."

So incredibly disingenuous of you.. :|
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by kilobug » November 24th, 2016, 8:59 am

dorkboy wrote:http://www.redbull.com/en/games/stories ... asteland-3
Keenan wrote:[...] “You’ll still create your party,” he explains. “You’ll have your initial character, and then you will certainly come across a wide range of NPCs throughout the world. But you will be able to adjust the stats of other party members.”
So in other words - no, you won't create your party, you'll create 1 main character, and then modify CNPCs.

"Oh, but that's our definition of 'party based'.."

So incredibly disingenuous of you.. :|
Why call people names and pretend they are dishonest, when in reality things are not properly defined ? It's not like there is an International RPG Society that formally defines what is "party based" and what is not, demoting Pluto to a "dwarf planet", hrm, demoting WL3 to a "non-party based".

The meaning of "party based" is fuzzy and open to interpretation - to me, a game is "party-based" as long as you've full control of characters during fight, levelup and equipment - Baldur's Gate is party-based to me, Fallout 1/2 is not. Because that's what is important for me, being able to control my characters in combat, being able to equip and level them up. Creation is a mostly irrelevant detail to me. Some people will draw the line differently, and will consider IWD party-based but not Baldur's Gate, because they have different priorities and feelings.

In absence of a valid universally recognized authority drawing formal lines, both opinions are equally valid, and calling those holding one or the other "disingenuous" is not fair, at all.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » November 24th, 2016, 9:06 am

@kilobug
Oh, I know that 'party based' is open for interpretation. Exactly how inXile defines it has been requested since the Fig campaign was bloody well announced. inXile have consistently avoided answering that in a way that isn't heavily ambiguous, obviously relying on potential backers' willingness to believe what they wanted to believe while at the same time providing plausible deniability for inXile.
That is disingenuous of inXile.
Last edited by dorkboy on November 24th, 2016, 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by paultakeda » November 24th, 2016, 9:06 am

Yes, except on this board we hashed this all out during the WL2 KS and the go-to definition here for "party-based" means being able to create a party. A Chosen One RPG can have a party, but it is based on a single character.

WL3 is therefore, by that go-to definition, a Chosen One RPG that can recruit and level a party a la Dragon Age: Origins.

And inXile knows that. They've read all the threads that beat this dead horse through the ground and out the other side in China. But hey, they never said party-based; they said party.

Still and all, Wasteland as a series was supposed to be party-based. Wasteland 3 is not a party-based.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Grohal » November 24th, 2016, 9:26 am

Well if I can have a mighty word in the development of the NPCs, making NPC Whateverhisnameis a sharpshooter OR a diplomat OR a knifefigher, I guess I can live with that. Seems like a fine compromise to me, as long as InXile doesn't throw already half-finished (in terms of skills) NPCs at me.

Of course those disturbed by "the chosen one"-theme, will still be disapointed.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » November 24th, 2016, 9:37 am

@Grohal
Well, it seems to me like a rather misguided compromise where apparently neither the player nor the developers can be trusted to create a full party of functional characters. "Just add respec". :roll:

(And modifying the stats of someone else's character concept isn't actually the same as creating one's own characters from scratch..)
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