Wait. Is this a single-character game??

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kilobug
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by kilobug » November 24th, 2016, 10:24 am

@paultakeda @dorkboy and the others with similar opinion : is PoE a party-based game for you ? Since you _can_ create your whole party by recruiting new adventurers in the tavern. And would that be an acceptable solution for WL3 ?

I'm not sure I understand where the issue lies... it's something that exists in PoE but that I never actually used (same for BG btw, you can create your full party by selecting multipayer, but in the 6-7 times I played BG I never used it), but would it be an acceptable solution for you ?

BG even with fully created party, or PoE with recruited adventurers is still a "Chosen One" game, because "Chosen One" is more regarding to the storyline than to game mechanics to me - and not contradictory with party-based. BG and PoE (to me even with regular NPCs, but perhaps for you with the "fully created party" option) are both party-based and Chosen One games.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by paultakeda » November 24th, 2016, 10:49 am

Grohal wrote:Of course those disturbed by "the chosen one"-theme, will still be disapointed.
Correct. I would not have minded Wasteland: The Colorado Kid as a spin-off Chosen One RPG. But having the main series switch over is very disappointing. A lot of old gamers welcomed the return of the party-based format because let's face it: modern RPGs are never party-based. Making WL3 a Chosen One RPG? It means we got WL2 and it's all we get. Wasteland is now mainstream. It works for inXile's bottom line, I guess, and in the end it is a business. But yeah, disappointing is an understatement.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » November 24th, 2016, 10:57 am

@kilobug
I don't personally think of PoE as party based - though it certainly is party based-ish with the full control over CNPCs and the tavern mercs.
It's not designed to be played with a fully player created party right from the beginning, though. If I were to try to define what 'party based' is to me, then creating an entire party at the start of the game would definitely be pretty central to the experience.
Creating a single protagonist and then gradually adding/being forced to add CNPCs would run contrary to that type of experience.
You can create a single chosen one in WL2, too, but that's more of an after-thought, and not really what the game is primarily designed for.
Comparing BG/PoE with IWD; one strikes me as immeasurably more party based than the others.
(And, yes, I vastly prefer IWD. Don't ask me why.. ;) )

Mind you, I did enjoy the custom character creation in (modded?) JA2, so there's that. Of course, that allowed me to create an entire group, and not just to add a new merc once every solstice or something.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Zombra » November 24th, 2016, 12:05 pm

I can see how this could still be interpreted as "party-based", despite the "common law" agreement that we came to on the forums, but ...
“You’ll still create your party,” he explains. “You’ll have your initial character, and then you will certainly come across a wide range of NPCs throughout the world. But you will be able to adjust the stats of other party members.”
This is flat-out disingenuous.
kilobug wrote:is PoE a party-based game for you ? Since you _can_ create your whole party by recruiting new adventurers in the tavern. And would that be an acceptable solution for WL3 ?
Tavern recruitment was welcome in POE, but it didn't change the fact of it being a Chosen One game.

In Wasteland 2, my party did not have a "hero". It had an ensemble cast. A team of specialists who each got their time in the spotlight (and not just as side stories waiting to focus again on the "real person who matters"). All of whom I was privileged to author. They weren't spear carriers to the "avatar" or lackeys to a blessed "champion". It's egalitarianism vs. elitism all over again, and this difference is absolutely fundamental.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by marceror » November 24th, 2016, 3:29 pm

Zombra wrote:
“You’ll still create your party,” he explains. “You’ll have your initial character, and then you will certainly come across a wide range of NPCs throughout the world. But you will be able to adjust the stats of other party members.”
This is flat-out disingenuous.
Right, this is utter non-sense. You create a single character... *not*, *not*, *NOT* your party!! You will make decisions about which PRE-MADE (i.e. not made by the player) characters to add to the party. That is just so not what it means to create a party. So now Chris/inXile are, in fact, lying to the public (and perhaps to themselves), and doing so ever so poorly. :x

The reality is, inXile will create the party, and the player will choose the members from a pool of options. inXile creates the party. To say again, inXile creates the party! They can at least state this correctly, instead of adding insult to injury.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by marceror » November 24th, 2016, 3:58 pm

Dammit, I was having a perfect Thanksgiving, and now inXile has me all pissed off. The good news is that I didn't back WL3 more generously. I would have been willing to back the game at more than 10x the amount that I did, but their lack of transparency during the campaign was already a major concern for me.

And really, it's not so much that they want to make a "chosen one" game. It's that they didn't have the balls to be more direct about sharing their intention to do so. And now, just as they are wrapping up collecting the pledges they begin to share more about this stuff. Pretty f**kin' low of these guys.

Fargo has managed to go from hero to zero in just a few years. It's doubtful that I'll ever crowdfund anything they do in the future, since they are showing their true, manipulative ways so clearly now. I really hope that they get lots and lots of console monkeys to support them going forward, as I won't be surprised to see their core fanbase start to scatter.

Happy Thanksgiving. :/

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by IHaveHugeNick » November 24th, 2016, 4:46 pm

I prefer the Chosen One option, exactly for reasons they explained. That said, not being unpfront about it is disingenuous to say the least. Glad I decided stay wary of backing, makes you wonder what else are they hiding.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Stuurminator » November 24th, 2016, 11:02 pm

Grohal wrote:Well if I can have a mighty word in the development of the NPCs, making NPC Whateverhisnameis a sharpshooter OR a diplomat OR a knifefigher, I guess I can live with that. Seems like a fine compromise to me, as long as InXile doesn't throw already half-finished (in terms of skills) NPCs at me.
Ehhhhh, all they said is that you can adjust their stats. That may well be to the same extent that you could "adjust" an NPC's stats in W2, by spending their level-up points.
dorkboy wrote:Mind you, I did enjoy the custom character creation in (modded?) JA2, so there's that. Of course, that allowed me to create an entire group, and not just to add a new merc once every solstice or something.
For the record, that was a mod. In basic JA2, you could only create one IMP; everyone else had to be pulled from the AIM, MERC, and local civilian roster.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Zombra » November 24th, 2016, 11:26 pm

Stuurminator wrote:
dorkboy wrote:Mind you, I did enjoy the custom character creation in (modded?) JA2, so there's that. Of course, that allowed me to create an entire group, and not just to add a new merc once every solstice or something.
For the record, that was a mod. In basic JA2, you could only create one IMP; everyone else had to be pulled from the AIM, MERC, and local civilian roster.
Yeah, JA2 certainly wasn't a "create a party" game. Thankfully, it wasn't a "Chosen One" game either; the IMP character was just another merc. He could die, and he wasn't supposed to be "you" - "you" were the guy at home on his laptop issuing orders.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by kilobug » November 25th, 2016, 12:57 am

I'm still not really getting it... but so far I'm actually leaning towards the "Chosen One" vs "party-based" issue for you folks is more a story issue than a mechanism issue, and that "creating the party at start" is more like a red herring - but I might be wrong. If BG (despite the option to create a party at start, by chosing multiplayer) or PoE (despite the taverns allowing to fully create your party after the first few minutes) are not "party-based", then that must be it.

Hum... let's try another example to see if I can understand what you guy mean and why it's so important for you... in Lords of Xulima, there is a "Chosen One", Gaulen, whom you actually don't create - his class, base abilities and name are fixed, and he has a special story purpose. But at start of the game, you fully create 5 other characters that will make the part. It's kind of the "reversed Baldur's Gate" in that aspect. Would that be a part-based, or Chosen One, or both ?

To me it's both - Chosen One is a story-based qualification, and LoX is a Chosen One game, but party-based is a mechanics-based qualification, and LoX is a party-based game, even using the strictest definition ("creating your party at start").

But then to me BG or PoE are also both so...

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Grohal » November 25th, 2016, 1:33 am

paultakeda wrote:
Grohal wrote:Of course those disturbed by "the chosen one"-theme, will still be disapointed.
Correct. I would not have minded Wasteland: The Colorado Kid as a spin-off Chosen One RPG. But having the main series switch over is very disappointing. A lot of old gamers welcomed the return of the party-based format because let's face it: modern RPGs are never party-based. Making WL3 a Chosen One RPG? It means we got WL2 and it's all we get. Wasteland is now mainstream. It works for inXile's bottom line, I guess, and in the end it is a business. But yeah, disappointing is an understatement.
I am fully on your (and every other with a similar sentiment) on this account. I would have prefered it if InXile would have pulled this "one char creation - rest NPCs"-stunt with another IP (VanBuren comes to my mind) and leave Wasteland the good old 4+3 system or not making WL3 but WL Chosen One series or whatever.
I guess what Bethesda did to Fallout made my gamer soul get a lot of cornea, so... I prefer a good game with new game mechanics over a medicore or bad came with old mechanics, that the developers cannot quite handle(the attribute/skill system for example was way worse in WL2 than in the original WL in my book and the NPCs were not much better/deeper than in the original, which is a shame BG, FO 1+2 and others set the standard WAY higher).

€: What bothers me WAY more is that the party size seems to be cut from a total 7 (4+3) to a total 4 (1+3 plus 7 people not really fitting in those cars). If so, keep your stupid cars Inxile if you take half my squad away in turn. :x

So will we get a good game? Maybe.
Will we get a "trve" Wasteland? Not with what we know yet about what is planed.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Woolfe » November 25th, 2016, 5:20 am

I am so bloody sick of the whole 4 characters shit.

They tried it with BT as well. InXile why are you so focused on this, that you are pissing off the fans who loved the original?
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by sear » November 25th, 2016, 5:53 am

Hey guys, thanks for voicing your thoughts. However, you are reading too much into that interview. In Wasteland 3, we're still building on Wasteland 2's party-based system and giving you the ability to create and customize Rangers. The main difference is we're planning for you to start out as a single character, before forming a full party out of created characters and companions.

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Grohal » November 25th, 2016, 6:13 am

sear wrote:Hey guys, thanks for voicing your thoughts. However, you are reading too much into that interview. In Wasteland 3, we're still building on Wasteland 2's party-based system and giving you the ability to create and customize Rangers. The main difference is we're planning for you to start out as a single character, before forming a full party out of created characters and companions.
Thanks! That takes a load of my shoulders. :D

You could have stated that a lot earlier, would make less need for blood pressure pills. :mrgreen:
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by dorkboy » November 25th, 2016, 7:58 am

@Stuurminator & Zombra
Alrighty! :)

@Kilobug
While I did play BG multiplayer with other people, I never did play it multiplayer alone - but I'll agree that it certainly sounds like BG singlemultiplayer (that's a word now) would achieve much the same type of gameplay as IWD did without any workarounds.
You're right about not getting it, I think. And that's OK, because inXile clearly grasped the difference already in WL2 (as far as I can tell).

@Sear
You're welcome! There's more concerns where that came from. ;)
In all seriousness, though, thanks for clarifying that particular ambiguity. :)
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Lord of Riva » November 25th, 2016, 8:15 am

sear wrote:Hey guys, thanks for voicing your thoughts. However, you are reading too much into that interview. In Wasteland 3, we're still building on Wasteland 2's party-based system and giving you the ability to create and customize Rangers. The main difference is we're planning for you to start out as a single character, before forming a full party out of created characters and companions.
while not having a horse in this race i would also kindly ask that miscommunications like this are addressed ASAP :)

i feared some of our loved community would have imploded if they had to wait any longer ;)

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Infinitron » November 25th, 2016, 11:33 am

sear wrote:Hey guys, thanks for voicing your thoughts. However, you are reading too much into that interview. In Wasteland 3, we're still building on Wasteland 2's party-based system and giving you the ability to create and customize Rangers. The main difference is we're planning for you to start out as a single character, before forming a full party out of created characters and companions.
Does the game end if that single character dies after you have a party? Is he framed as "the main character" in any sense?

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Zombra » November 25th, 2016, 11:52 am

This is absolutely exhausting. I see four lights.
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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Bubbles » November 25th, 2016, 12:26 pm

Infinitron wrote:
sear wrote:Hey guys, thanks for voicing your thoughts. However, you are reading too much into that interview. In Wasteland 3, we're still building on Wasteland 2's party-based system and giving you the ability to create and customize Rangers. The main difference is we're planning for you to start out as a single character, before forming a full party out of created characters and companions.
Does the game end if that single character dies after you have a party? Is he framed as "the main character" in any sense?
To expand on that - have you decided on any concrete changes to the Wasteland 2 party system beyond the facts that you will start with a single character and that you will be able to "adjust" your companions?

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Re: Wait. Is this a single-character game??

Post by Drool » November 25th, 2016, 12:42 pm

kilobug wrote: PoE (despite the taverns allowing to fully create your party after the first few minutes) are not "party-based", then that must be it.
What happens when the dude you made in PoE dies? Do the Tavern-created people continue the quest, or does the game end? There's your answer.
Woolfe wrote:I am so bloody sick of the whole 4 characters shit.
...but Wasteland was 4 characters?
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