Base Management

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Woolfe
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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » July 19th, 2017, 9:14 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 19th, 2017, 7:46 am
how is numbers bad?
"you have 3 engineers fixing and upgrading weaponry" "you have 5 medics at work" "you have 2 ranger squads ready to head out"
how is that bad?

you're not playing a city building game, you're building a militairy base, having exact staff numbers is a must, you don't need to add food or water into the count
just increase the staff in the mess hall or something to keep up with demand, just a simple bar would do the trick
Are you the base commander, or are you a Ranger party?
If the first, then numbers are good. If the second, then why are you that concerned with the numbers, that's the base commanders job. If the Base commander says "we have a shortage of "Blah" and we need X amount to be viable", that's fine. But when the base commander says. "Right we have X number of people, eating Y amount of food, with an addition of Z for the animals, and N for additional expenses, which leaves us -A per month. We need more food, what should we do?", then that's bad.

The base commander should be making these decisions, and directing your team, or another ranger team to go and collect more, or to identify a solution to the problem long term etc. These decisions shouldn't be yours. UNLESS you are the base commander, in which case, it would be more like old school Xcom. But then you wouldn't be playing an RPG anymore.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 19th, 2017, 7:46 am
you might even go a step further and add staff happiness, if a staff member has a high medic skill but you put him in the mess hall, he won't be happy and eventually he might leave, he might end up fighting and end up in the brig, he might even talk other rangers into leaving or lower happiness of everyone in the mess hall staff
stuff like that
choices and consequences people, CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES
Agreed, and you should be able to affect this sort of stuff. But it should be different to a management simulation etc. You are a party being directed or with "missions" to help out. You are not the person with their finger on the life of the base.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 19th, 2017, 7:46 am
but not for followers, I don't care about old timey RPG's that make evil characters leave because you're not playing an evil group or make good characters leave because you loot a village
you know who you are, the people who join you know who you are, caravan talk moves fast, they know what to expect
also I always took advantage Pizepi Joren not knowing you tell anyone when she's not around or in the mess hall
I told Vargas with her still at the entrance doors, I told Thrasher, and as long as she's not in your group or in the mess hall she doesn't know and can't leave


I said it
I finally said it
And.. that makes no sense to the context.....
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fuzzyballs01
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 20th, 2017, 12:46 am

I've said this before
you're both
you both handle the base as whoever you left in charge, in a broad sense, and you are ALSO a ranger party
what a tough concept to grasp!
I never mentioned food or resource requirements, other people did, and I suggested mess hall staff
you only get the broad picture
and the ranger squad comes before the base commander, the guy which YOU put there listens to you, you get to order all your forces to a location for a massive assault on the main enemy base in the end, it's not his choice
he just makes the ranger base a viable location to hold up, he sends out squads, you command him
you are the Alpha, dude
the first, you are the people out in the field saving the world
the base commander is the guy wo gets to send out squads to make the base and Colorado a better place with minor missions you shouldn't concern yourself with
you're not in it to haul a barrel of fuel or a pallet of food back to the HQ
how do people not get that, it's not that hard

get some other ranger squad to "help out", my squad is busy saving Colorado, how would your squad doing a crappy fetch quest help out a guy who's unhappy because he has to feed people, the only thing you could do in that situation is find someone with cooking skills so the other guy can go back to splinting limbs, and it's not like you can just go around, ask people and forcibly recruit them, at best you should get a base commander mission for a "find a cook", so you can choose to send out a squad to go find one for you
cause I ain't got time for that shit

I'm allowed to go off track once a while, but thanks for still bitching about it instead of ignoring it, bud

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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » July 20th, 2017, 4:31 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 20th, 2017, 12:46 am
I've said this before
you're both
you both handle the base as whoever you left in charge, in a broad sense, and you are ALSO a ranger party
what a tough concept to grasp!
So is it stated somewhere that we will be both? Or is that just your personal take on things?
I never mentioned food or resource requirements, other people did, and I suggested mess hall staff
you only get the broad picture
and the ranger squad comes before the base commander, the guy which YOU put there listens to you, you get to order all your forces to a location for a massive assault on the main enemy base in the end, it's not his choice
he just makes the ranger base a viable location to hold up, he sends out squads, you command him
you are the Alpha, dude
Why would the base commander defer to you on matters of the base? You may well be the alpha. But he is the base commander. He orders the rest of the people around.
the first, you are the people out in the field saving the world
the base commander is the guy wo gets to send out squads to make the base and Colorado a better place with minor missions you shouldn't concern yourself with

Indeed, so why would you be concerned with the minute details like how much food, how many mess hall staff etc?
you're not in it to haul a barrel of fuel or a pallet of food back to the HQ
So base is desperate for food, but you are "too good" for that? Yeah no.
how do people not get that, it's not that hard
Oh we get what you are saying. But unless InXile have clearly stated what you will and won't be in regards to the base, then my personal preference is for us to NOT be involved in the minute details. I enjoy Old school Xcom style games which have the base management etc, but that is a different game to a Wasteland RPG.
get some other ranger squad to "help out", my squad is busy saving Colorado, how would your squad doing a crappy fetch quest help out a guy who's unhappy because he has to feed people, the only thing you could do in that situation is find someone with cooking skills so the other guy can go back to splinting limbs, and it's not like you can just go around, ask people and forcibly recruit them, at best you should get a base commander mission for a "find a cook", so you can choose to send out a squad to go find one for you
cause I ain't got time for that shit
I get what you mean, I even included it in my previous comments. I am not saying these are tasks you "must do" but rather side tasks. Indeed if you don't perform them, then it should be perfectly possible for the base to get along without you. But if you want that extra ammo, or funky weapon mods, or more available resources etc, then it would pay for you to assist with some of the base missions.
As to the people. My point wasn't forcibly recruiting. There were several situations in the original game, and WL2 where you come across or are even the cause of people being displaced from their situation. These people need somewhere to go. Maybe after you have saved that group of slaves, you could suggest that they head back to the Base. As you say cause and consequence. If you wipe out a locations militia defenders, you may remove a scourge, but you also remove the locals defence against other raiders and beasts. Maybe getting them to join up with the base, or organising for the base to send out a squad to defend the place, would be in your favour.
I'm allowed to go off track once a while, but thanks for still bitching about it instead of ignoring it, bud
Not sure what you mean by this. But anyway.

My concept of the Ranger team and the Base management, is that your team have a higher purpose which gives them "Free reign" to do what they want. But there will be occasions where the base may need help, especially in the early stages. You can then choose to help, or not. In addition, your team are defacto diplomats, in that you will be a front face of the rangers that the local towns and villages will be seeing more of. So based on that you can use that leverage to help the base, or you can just ignore it.

Sear made this comment on the base. This will not be set in stone obviously as it is still too early for that, but this gives a feel for what InXile will be trying to do.
sear wrote:
July 2nd, 2017, 6:56 am
We'll detail the Ranger Base at a later date, but as we've spoken to previously, we're targeting more of mission hub and story-based upgrade approach, rather than spending resources, assigning peons, etc. We're definitely drawing inspiration from games like XCOM at times, both for combat and other gameplay elements, but Wasteland is still an RPG and has a different focus.

P.S. Baldur's Gate 2 comes up very frequently in design meetings and is one of George Ziets' favorites. ;)
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm

-this is still a suggestion thread, bub
that was obviously my suggestion
- because you put him there, like I said before, why wouldn't the guy you left to order the base around listen to you
- I'm not concerned, second time I'm going to say this, someone asked about it, I suggested mess hall staff
- that isn't even what I said
- there's a ton of people in your new base, why can't they send out a group?
- you obviously aren't getting what I'm putting down or I wouldn't have to actually reply to you
- tldr
- how do you not understand "people go off-track once a while", followed by a tldr

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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » July 22nd, 2017, 11:10 pm

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
-this is still a suggestion thread, bub
that was obviously my suggestion
And the other was my suggestion. I even stated "OK.. this is my take on the base."
So what is your point?
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
- because you put him there, like I said before, why wouldn't the guy you left to order the base around listen to you
Because its his job, not yours.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
- I'm not concerned, second time I'm going to say this, someone asked about it, I suggested mess hall staff
- that isn't even what I said
So do you want the base commander to defer to you or not? If they are deferring to you, then you are in command and make those minute decisions.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
- there's a ton of people in your new base, why can't they send out a group?
They could, and i have even said that several times. My point was, these would be missions you could do to help out, you wouldn't have to do it, and indeed, if you leave it long enough the base should handle it using other methods.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
- you obviously aren't getting what I'm putting down or I wouldn't have to actually reply to you
Maybe I am not. But then I didn't actually comment on your suggestions. You are the one commenting on mine.
fuzzyballs01 wrote:
July 21st, 2017, 12:07 pm
- tldr
- how do you not understand "people go off-track once a while", followed by a tldr
Mate, calm down. I don't know why you think I am "misunderstanding" you, nor do I have any idea why you think that I am attacking your suggestions.

You were the one who questioned my suggestions. I gave my suggestions for how I think the base should be, you then started in as if I was attacking you personally, or ignoring some point you made previously.

This is not the case.

I was simply offering MY PERSONAL take on what I would like to see of the base. None of my suggestions related to your original post, or follow on posts, UNTIL you started questioning my suggestions. At which point I simply addressed why I wanted it that way. If you want to disagree that is fine.

But if you think I am only stating these things to "attack" your ideas and suggestions, then I am not, and you have misunderstood me.
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » August 5th, 2017, 12:08 pm

I had an idea
how about instead of like fully controlled equipping ranger squads one person at a time,and getting too involved, how about instead of xp levels, you get equipment levels
they get better because they get better equipment, and they get better because they go out and find it themselves, like you did in W2
basically all you have to do (as the base commander, not as the ranger squad) is pick which missions wouldn't kill them outright and watch them grow stronger
and you, as the player, can drop off equipment for lower scrap than a regular shop, and in return you get a higher starting equipment level ranger newbie squad

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Gizmo
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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » August 5th, 2017, 12:27 pm

This implies that they are only as good as their equipment. This disallows (ignores) personal growth —which is the basis of nearly all roleplaying games.

Ideally the more experienced PC would do better with even basic equipment, than the novice PC could do with the same (or even marginally superior) gear.

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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » August 6th, 2017, 2:07 am

it doesn't imply that at all, why do people refuse to read my comments, then complain about something I didn't say
"they get better because they get better equipment, and they get better because they go out and find it themselves"
I'm not even talking about PC, I'm talking about the rangers you recruit throughout the game

I want this to be a minimal as possible yet still feel like an addition to the main game, I don't need an equipment stat AND a character level, just a generalised "how good is this guy at killing" level, and the whole "equipment level" idea was so you'd SEE them get better equipment in the squad selection screen but you wouldn't have to handpick any of it

lemme try it this wayy
"oh look, this guy upgraded from makeshift armour and a shitty 9mm pistol and got an assault rifle with a pre-war vest ALL ON HIS OWN, just like the player does with his squad, he literally WENT OUT and FOUND HIS OWN EQUIPMENT, and in doing so HE BECAME BETTER AT HIS JOB"

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Re: Base Management

Post by Gizmo » August 6th, 2017, 3:10 am

If you mean generic hirelings stationed at your base (who at times autonomously venture out, and return with free upgrades)... then they should be at risk of getting killed every time they do that. The alternative being that the player allots them better equipment through paid upgrades to the base; or by donating equipment they have acquired.
Last edited by Gizmo on August 6th, 2017, 5:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » August 6th, 2017, 3:45 am

fuzzyballs01 wrote:
August 5th, 2017, 12:08 pm
I had an idea
how about instead of like fully controlled equipping ranger squads one person at a time,and getting too involved, how about instead of xp levels, you get equipment levels
they get better because they get better equipment, and they get better because they go out and find it themselves, like you did in W2
basically all you have to do (as the base commander, not as the ranger squad) is pick which missions wouldn't kill them outright and watch them grow stronger
and you, as the player, can drop off equipment for lower scrap than a regular shop, and in return you get a higher starting equipment level ranger newbie squad
I actually suggested something similar. In that if you continue to bring back good quality gear, the base defenders become better equipped. That would theoretically extend to other ranger teams as well.

That was also where I was talking about bringing back specialist personnel. So if you brought back a weaponsmith, you might get better quality weapons, or a sergeant at arms, your new recruits etc might start better trained etc.

This was were my comments on not having direct control but contributing and affecting the way the base grew organically etc.
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Re: Base Management

Post by IHaveHugeNick » August 6th, 2017, 7:26 am

They really should look to Dead State to see how to integrate base-building within a cRPG genre. Both games have similar themes of survival and scavenging too. I mean, one is zombie apocalypse and the other is nuclear apocalypse, but the same things apply.
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Re: Base Management

Post by fuzzyballs01 » August 9th, 2017, 10:59 am

I already said rangers get tired, get wounded or could get killed
it's all about choosing who to send where + if they radio you for advice and you give them bad advice one of them gets auto-killed anyways
they don't choose when to go out, the base commander sends them out
just like how in W2 Vargas sends out teams on specific missions
you're there to help the base grow, not help every single NPC in the base specifically

I also literally said two comments ago that you could drop off equipment and get higher rating starter squads
not a fan of paid upgrades to specific squads, I prefer the Metal Gear Solid V way where you collect resources, then decide what part of the base to upgrade (AKA clear a new room to house more staff) using those resources that both you and other ranger squads collect, and thus increase specific base levels with more/better staff, which in turn gives the base bonusses from better equipped squads to a higher morale or having better items in store
I want to base to be your actual base and not just a Ranger Station you visit a handful of time to sell weapon scrap and complete generic fetch quests
I want you to literally prefer travelling back there over going to the nearest shop, and see it grow from having no people to a cleaned up base full of armed staff ready to fight for the Rangers
it'd be great if your base level effects the final mission, like say you neglected the base building part, you can't directly attack and you go in with some support tailing you as opposed to having your rangers attack the enemy base like an army and you supporting every squad you run into
kinda like how in W2 all the people in Arizona you helped came down to help you, but with staff levels
like how in Army of Two 2 if you save every person they show up in the final mission to shoot bad guys
I want there to be more of a reason to build a base then just building a base

and the way I explained it, you don't have to do all that much, it's something you can go check like once an hour for 2 minutes, make some choices and continue playing the main game

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Re: Base Management

Post by Woolfe » August 9th, 2017, 6:15 pm

Sure. I agree with all that. Just not the direct base control bit.

Personal preferences and all.
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