Combat - More of the same?

Discussion about the upcoming Wasteland 3!

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Elderin
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Combat - More of the same?

Post by Elderin » March 16th, 2017, 1:00 pm

While I enjoyed Wasteland 2 at first, the combat quickly grew stale. There just didn't seem like there was enough tactical depth. The environment is rarely useful. The abilities are pretty bland. Most battles seemed to just turn into a slugfest without much regard for cover, flanking, ect.. Compare that x-com 2, which has a wide range of enemy types with different abilities, loads of classes/abilities for your characters to utilize, and puts a lot of emphasis on cover, high ground, and flanking.

Will wasteland 3 do anything to address this?

SagaDC
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by SagaDC » March 16th, 2017, 2:27 pm

According to the Vision Document they released a couple of weeks ago, Wasteland 3 will include: "An evolution of Wasteland 2's tactical, turn-based combat that includes vehicles, environmental dangers, and a revamped action system."

Later in the document, it further elaborates on this by talking about "Combat Abilities" (special attacks, techniques, and benefits tied to character skills, perks, and equipment). It gives examples by noting that a ranger who's good at melee might learn to kneecap enemies and knock them prone, or another ranger might gain short-range area attacks using an arm-mounted flamethrower.

They want to do more memorable "set piece" battles in Wasteland 3, stressing that they want to put more importance on level design, cover placement, and ways to interact with the environment during encounters. Some of the ideas they throw around are evolving battles that will change when reinforcements arrive midway through a fight, or when a combat objective suddenly changes.

They don't go into many specifics, since the game is still in predevelopment, but it does sound fairly promising. Obviously, we'll have to wait until the Beta version of the game is available to see what their end goals might really look like.

You can check out the Vision Document over here, if you haven't already: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3LlgO ... 85TUE/view

Elderin
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Elderin » March 16th, 2017, 4:37 pm

Thanks! Just finished reading it. The addition of abilities and better encounter design will help a lot. I really hope cover and flanking take on a much larger role as well.

migelpig
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by migelpig » April 9th, 2017, 3:39 am

Good news indeed.
I liked WL2DC but the combat didn't change much from start to finish.

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Blindchance
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Blindchance » April 18th, 2017, 4:52 am

I would love to see combat being more indepth with more active skills. Something like XCOM games.

Imagine if weapons and skills had multiple active skills you could use in combat for example heavy weapons could have suppressive fire skill which would create a cone of fire (like with shotgun) which suppresses all enemies lowering their accuracy and movement speed. Handguns could have fire two guns at the cost of one (without an ability for precision aiming for example), disarm (where you shoot enemies hand and cause him to drop his weapon). Computer science ability to hack enemy robots (just with slightly better range then just standing next to them...), demolition could allow you to plant mines, IEDs and use mortar to get people out of cover, maybe deploy smoke grenades?

The same should apply to combat areas. W2 combat areas were small, with little cover and possibilities for flanking or getting height advantage. I'm not a fan of XCOM games, but their combat maps were great with nice variety of cover, buildings, roofs. Depending how your character was build you could take advantage of it, by putting your sniper on a roof, heavy weapons guy pinning group of enemies with suppressive fire, shredding enemies armour with a rocket launcher, kicking doors in as a shotgun guy and flanking with a rush ability. Wasteland is really missing out on great combat which also mean great re-playability value.

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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by SagaDC » April 18th, 2017, 8:35 am

Blindchance wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 4:52 am
I would love to see combat being more indepth with more active skills. Something like XCOM games.
Agreed. Though one thing I'd want to avoid from the newer XCOM franchise are arbitrary "ability cooldowns. I generally find those to be very immersion-breaking unless they can give a legitimate reason for it being there (such as overheated equipment literally "cooling down").
Blindchance wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 4:52 am
demolition could allow you to plant mines, IEDs and use mortar to get people out of cover, maybe deploy smoke grenades?
Demolitions definitely needed more uses in Wasteland 2. It wasn't even tied to the use of explosive weaponry, which seemed like a very strange decision. In some of the earlier teaser videos for Wasteland 2, they actually made reference to the player being able to salvage enemy mines and then re-use them against enemies, but obviously that mechanic ended up being scrapped.

There was also that one sequence in Highpool where you could use your Demolitions skill to use a stationary mortar launcher. It makes me wonder if they originally had plans to actually include a mortar weapon of some sort.
Blindchance wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 4:52 am
The same should apply to combat areas. W2 combat areas were small, with little cover and possibilities for flanking or getting height advantage. I'm not a fan of XCOM games, but their combat maps were great with nice variety of cover, buildings, roofs. Depending how your character was build you could take advantage of it, by putting your sniper on a roof, heavy weapons guy pinning group of enemies with suppressive fire, shredding enemies armour with a rocket launcher, kicking doors in as a shotgun guy and flanking with a rush ability. Wasteland is really missing out on great combat which also mean great re-playability value.
They did end up adding in a lot of abilities (mostly passive) that are similar to what you describe, such as certain weapons being able to shred armor or snipers gaining bonuses from elevation, but they were mostly "tacked on" in the Director's Cut edition. Because the game wasn't built around their inclusion, they generally felt very underwhelming. The developers have stated that WL3 will have more active abilities based around your choice of skills and equipment, so hopefully those will be better integrated into the game as a whole.

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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Amon Ra » April 18th, 2017, 9:47 am

I am curious to know how MorningStar [the A.I. armoured car] will be implemented into combat encounters. It's described as a formidable ally and I look forward to finding out.

Combat encounters that have objectives and/or terrain which are dynamic does seem intriguing. Fighting on a frozen lake as chunks of the ice melted away or were blown to bits by grenades etc would be cool [heh!]. Also, in a similar environment could a skilled sniper perhaps extend the distance by ricocheting the bullet along the ice?

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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by SagaDC » April 18th, 2017, 1:17 pm

Amon Ra wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 9:47 am
I am curious to know how MorningStar [the A.I. armoured car] will be implemented into combat encounters. It's described as a formidable ally and I look forward to finding out.
Apparently they're trying to design the game with the idea of using vehicles in combat, though they also mentioned that not all combat encounters will allow you to make use of vehicles. I'm guessing that they'll spawn on the battlefield with you during certain random encounters, and possibly in some "outdoors" locations, but that you'll have to leave them behind once you enter a building or start wandering around old sewer tunnels.

But it's hard to say if we'll actually get to drive them around in combat, acting as mobile cover and letting you run down foes, or if they'll just be glorified stationary gun platforms.

"Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel" injected controllable vehicles into the turn-based strategy game format, but it was done fairly awkwardly. Vehicles were only actually usable in a small number of encounters, and often ended up being more trouble than they were worth because their mobility was heavily limited by the terrain.

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Gizmo
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Gizmo » April 18th, 2017, 2:51 pm

SagaDC wrote:
April 18th, 2017, 1:17 pm
"Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel" injected controllable vehicles into the turn-based strategy game format, but it was done fairly awkwardly. Vehicles were only actually usable in a small number of encounters, and often ended up being more trouble than they were worth because their mobility was heavily limited by the terrain.
It might be interesting if WL3 took a page from the Ground Control series; though obviously not the RTS aspect.

While it's not too realistic, I've played games where the army had controllable NPCs in the form of unmanned cannons. It worked for the gameplay, but looked odd. WL3 could perhaps have remote auto-turret NPCs, as per Shadowrun. Another option would be that PCs could enter and control vehicles [from motorcycles to mechs :twisted: ]; disabling those if the PCs are badly wounded or killed in them.

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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Amon Ra » April 19th, 2017, 8:16 am

In the "fish lips trailer" I saw, the vehicle the Rangers arrived in was primarily used for cover when the combat started; and one Ranger climbed into the turret of the mounted gun and let loose. I appreciate this was probably representative of combat [being staged rather than taken from actual game play] but I guess a lot of encounters using vehicles will use them as static platforms to provide cover and a base of fire.

Actual vehicle to vehicle combat would be tricky but I think if done right, would be a very welcome addition/improvement.

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Gizmo
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Re: Combat - More of the same?

Post by Gizmo » April 19th, 2017, 10:33 am

Amon Ra wrote:
April 19th, 2017, 8:16 am
Actual vehicle to vehicle combat would be tricky but I think if done right, would be a very welcome addition/improvement.
Indeed.

Turn based vehicular combat was mentioned recently, in another thread. I posted a limited conceptual example.
Image

Having the combat optionally take place on a passing landscape additionally gives the option of time limits; (before running out of road).

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