Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

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esest
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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by esest » February 14th, 2017, 11:41 pm

here's some conjecture but it sums up how i feel about the foci issue: why are 2/3 of the pc choices for a focus already more or less represented by companions?

-breathes shadow = matkina already does this better -or- why would i want to double up?
-brandishes a silver tongue = tybir already does this better (lest comparable) -or- why would i want to double up?
-masters defense = a shield

i feel hindered by these choices when play-testing/cooking up my last castoff. a learned jack sounds great and all, but when i realize none of these foci really seem to compliment- i find myself building the last castoff just to make the focus make sense. again-- overlapping functions with companions (whom i believe to be very nuanced/interesting on their own) will dissuade me from wanting them in the party. or dissuade me from building my last castoff into that relevant/overlapping focus. etc. its all very dissonant.

backed the original kickstarter. bought into the alpha. spent 70+ hours in beta (most of that time in the last few months). its funny to think that i hit a wall a few years back when i realized the beta had only given us these 3 foci. wasn't interested in them. was to put off playing until they added more. they haven't. cant seem to shake this funny feeling we all just slept in and now the alarm is going off...

DESPITE all that. the game is this incredibly deep puzzle box, and ive spent fervent hours in sagus cliffs playing around with success/failure results, different triggers, etc. etc. the game excites me. im not going to pretend otherwise. but aesthetically i feel my last castoff is a bit of a stand-in.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by esest » February 15th, 2017, 12:22 am

i also want to add that the 3 foci were handled well in their integration to the story. and at that neither were they cliché. the foolish fighter was the fast talker. the shield master an observant rogue. and the stealthy shadow master? oh he was a wizard. i mean to say these stand apart from stale rpg tropes. thats valuable in its own right. terms like "tank" "dps" "healer" dominate the larger meta of rpgs (even in pnp). so much so as to serve as initiatory concepts for new (and/or younger) players. their first most impressions and the hardest to kick.

so good on inxile.

but the fact remains the nuance we take away from these unique pairings are only valuable (relevant even) in our internal narratives, imagination, and projections. the setting begets the story as the story begets the setting. and we immerse ourselves in that cycle in the ways we choose to role play the story/setting. but just as glaring are the mechanics. its system. the "game" in "role playing game." we have just as much of an opportunity to showcase the setting in the mechanics as we do the story.

ahhhh... i don't know. *its* just not there. here? *shrugs*

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Omniknight » February 15th, 2017, 4:54 am

Drool wrote:Oh. So because he's seen it he's magically a community manager now?
Since when does a developer need to be a community manager to either (a) respond directly to repeated inquiries on their own forums about the same topic by concerned fans, or (b) take notice and inform management so that they can craft a more formal response? The fact that sear isn't a community manager hasn't stopped him from helpfully posting here and on the subreddit very frequently. To be clear, I'm not blaming sear in particular (it may be a managerial decision not to respond about this), I'm just highlighting his active forum participation as an example why your excuse for no developer response thus far ("no PR department and no community managers") is ridiculous.

You are really grasping at straws here to defend indefensible behavior.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Serjo » February 15th, 2017, 7:42 am

Drool wrote:Oh. So because he's seen it he's magically a community manager now?
The Kickstarter update about the first batch of cut stretch goals was written by Colin McComb. There's no reason why they would need a community manager to announce cut content to their community.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Spectrea » February 15th, 2017, 10:40 am

Dont want to make a new thread but its in a similar vein as foci really, have they given any indication if the expanded number of legacies have been met from kickstarter goals?

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Serjo » February 15th, 2017, 10:51 am

Spectrea wrote:Dont want to make a new thread but its in a similar vein as foci really, have they given any indication if the expanded number of legacies have been met from kickstarter goals?
There are no Legacies in the December build at all, and no mention of them in the files. I'm fairly sure that the entire mechanic has been cut, which would mean two cut stretch goals and the removal of one of the core components of the initial design document (which promised heavy reactivity based around Legacies, unique abilities unlocked by Legacies, useable items and equipment having different effects depending on your Legacy, Legacies affecting Focus selection, etc. etc.).

But nothing is certain until the developers make an official statement about the Legacy mechanics - which they haven't done in over a year, despite repeated questions.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by anonymous6059 » February 17th, 2017, 7:26 am

Serjo wrote:
Spectrea wrote:Dont want to make a new thread but its in a similar vein as foci really, have they given any indication if the expanded number of legacies have been met from kickstarter goals?
There are no Legacies in the December build at all, and no mention of them in the files. I'm fairly sure that the entire mechanic has been cut, which would mean two cut stretch goals and the removal of one of the core components of the initial design document (which promised heavy reactivity based around Legacies, unique abilities unlocked by Legacies, useable items and equipment having different effects depending on your Legacy, Legacies affecting Focus selection, etc. etc.).

But nothing is certain until the developers make an official statement about the Legacy mechanics - which they haven't done in over a year, despite repeated questions.
Well, to be fair how could the beta have the mechanic? It is something which only exist at the end of the game. I am pretty sure you are on to something and I agree that they have been largely cut. I doubt we will see 16. With all the other stuff they've cut it would only make sense they made cuts here as well. Especially since they've taken no steps to advertise the myriad of legacies. My guess is that the game has at least 5 legacies and no more than 10. If I was a gambling man I'd place a bet on 8 legacies, half of what they promised. That seems to be the trend at least, doing about half what they agreed.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by anonymous6059 » February 17th, 2017, 7:38 am

Gamgee wrote:UGH! I'm so glad I didn't back Wasteland 3. Each game is getting managed worse and worse. By the time Wasteland 3 is actually released I can only imagine the colossal failures they will have made of themselves and their good will.
I didn't back Wasteland 3 either. No plans to back Inxile in the future at all. With that said, I think Inxile will actually come out of this on top. I think they were able to foresee most of what is happening. Why do you think they crowdfunded Wasteland 3 before the release of TToN? Wasteland 3 will be their rebound. TToN will most likely receive a 6.5 out of 10. Backers will be unsatisfied and the general gamer won't even start to understand why this game even exist. In the end the game will be labeled as "okay".

All the real effort will be put into Wasteland 3. I think it will turn out quite good at least as far as ratings go. It is a much easier game to sell and now that it will have an abundance of cut-scenes and a multiplayer mode, it is main streamed for your average gamer. The kids will eat this stuff up.

The funny thing is that TToN will likely gain popularity 10 years from now. Once a couple of devoted fans go in and add all the missing content and fix the plethora of bugs that will most likely exist. Kind of like what happen with PST.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Omniknight » February 17th, 2017, 8:26 am

Given the very recent and very public embarrassment inXile suffered at the hands of investigative fans who discovered the then-unannounced cut Kickstarter-milestone content, the fact that inXile is being "coy" about this is probably going to really hurt them post-launch. It will be clear within hours of launch if Legacies and/or Foci has been cut (or severely neutered), despite both (plus the gameplay reactivity to them) still being prominently explained as core mechanics on their website. I understand that coming clean now will hurt sales to some extent given how close to launch it is, but that is their own fault for not being proactively forthright in the first place.

InXile really should salvage what goodwill they can and own up now before launch. Not only is it the right thing to do, not only is it what they promised to do as part of the apology for the lack of proactive communication regarding cut Kickstarter content, it will provide a fig leaf for them to say they weren't outright false advertising the game.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Devousa » February 18th, 2017, 5:45 am

This is certainly a hot topic. I am sure it would lessen worries if a developer would grant us a moment to shed light on whether the Foci system is anywhere close to how it had been planned.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Kulin » February 23rd, 2017, 3:41 am

Omniknight wrote:Given the very recent and very public embarrassment inXile suffered at the hands of investigative fans who discovered the then-unannounced cut Kickstarter-milestone content, the fact that inXile is being "coy" about this is probably going to really hurt them post-launch. It will be clear within hours of launch if Legacies and/or Foci has been cut (or severely neutered), despite both (plus the gameplay reactivity to them) still being prominently explained as core mechanics on their website. I understand that coming clean now will hurt sales to some extent given how close to launch it is, but that is their own fault for not being proactively forthright in the first place.

InXile really should salvage what goodwill they can and own up now before launch. Not only is it the right thing to do, not only is it what they promised to do as part of the apology for the lack of proactive communication regarding cut Kickstarter content, it will provide a fig leaf for them to say they weren't outright false advertising the game.
I agree. I decided to not bake Wasteland 3 already. For me this kind of behaviour is a general sign of disrespect - and that is a very big problem for all customers in the gaming industry in my opinion. It seems to be some kind of psychological, sub-conscious thing. Gamers in our societies are still considered as strange, foreign and "childish" in cause of their hobby. Based on this opinion many studios treat them like they would treat a minor or crazy person. Partially because their PR staff - who are also responsible for defining communication standards - are often no gamers. Partially because even gamers and therefore developers share this opinion/feeling.

So when one of those gamers asks a question, the same thing happens like when a child asks a busy adult. The adult answers very often "I'm busy right now. Please go away". If another, respected adult would ask such a question they would stop their work for a moment, think about the question, and give an answer. And the anonymity of the internet is intensifying this problem even more. :(

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by kilobug » February 23rd, 2017, 6:58 am

Kulin wrote:So when one of those gamers asks a question, the same thing happens like when a child asks a busy adult. The adult answers very often "I'm busy right now. Please go away". If another, respected adult would ask such a question they would stop their work for a moment, think about the question, and give an answer. And the anonymity of the internet is intensifying this problem even more. :(
That's a cute metaphor, but I don't think it has anything to do with the reality of inXile communication issues. InXile isn't a person, it's a corporation. A corporation is made of several persons, with hierarchies and procedures to follow.

Communication is a very tricky business, that can as easily do harm as it can help. Making an answer that turns out to be "wrong" (because the one making the answer didn't all the data, or because things changed, or because it was misunderstood) can do a lot of harm. Especially when (as it's done on this forum) people take one sentence from a statement and dissect and extrapolate from it. And making an answer that sounds negative without a positive thing accompanying it can hurt sales, too.

So when communicating with the outside, you need a validation process. It's not one guy at inXile speaking for himself, if he speaks in official capacity then he's engaging the company. So everything needs to be double-checked. The wording needs to be validated by one or more layers of hierachies or persons from different teams, to ensure it's accurate, won't be misunderstood, and that when a negative-sounding thing has to be announced (like cuts, which are to be expected in any such project, but always is painful to hear) there is some positive note with it, and so on.

And that's why inXile lacks in communication - not because they don't care about us, not because they consider us to be pestering children (even if some on that forum actually do behave like spoiled kids), but because communication is hard and delicate and therefore involve several persons and validation process, with many involved persons (in such a small company) being very busy ("under the water" as we say in France) close to release date.

Unfortunate, unpleasant, frustrating - yes. Bad will, not caring, lack of consideration - no.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Kulin » February 23rd, 2017, 11:31 am

That's a cute metaphor, but I don't think it has anything to do with the reality of inXile communication issues. InXile isn't a person, it's a corporation. A corporation is made of several persons, with hierarchies and procedures to follow.
One can easily make this mistake and think of corporation like some big, strong, mythical team effort where everything is following rational rules. But reality is there is normally ONE person in charge for communications in every department. A person who knows his customers and their environment very well. And this one person is responsible for the approach the company takes. Especially in smaller companies like inXile.

This one person bases his decisions on the advice of his workforce, but also in the last instance on things like personal experience and the cultural imprint society has left on his character.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Takkik » February 23rd, 2017, 2:07 pm

Sear didn't took long time to respond on the stronghold topic. If they didn't say anything here it's because it have been cut like the factions. Don't need any PR or days to respond "don't worry guys, there is X foci in the final release." They will just stay silent until release.

If Any investor was putting 5m on the table, you can be sure he will do all possible to get answers, will visit inxile etc... and they will do their best to make him confident that his cash is well spent. I'm sure with their publisher they don't stay silent like with us when they ask about stuff.

The baker community give them millions and I think we deserve respect for helping them funding the game. We gave them their trust and staying silent hiding stuff under the carpet is disrespect to us. It's the worst communication ever (some smaller studio do far better job monthly on some early access/kickstarter games). And what worry me more is that they continue to use kickstarter for their games.

If at any point they communicated to us that doing X foci was too much work, that they prefer to make 'the last castoff' our char foci, the Labyrinth the main special 'power', allowing us to gain unique powers during the games depending of our choices, I would have say cool. Perhaps even the game actually work like that. But learning less than a month of release most foci are cut with other parts of the game, that we will get only 3 boring foci just here to justify the mechanic and check the requirement, I feel cheated. It's a lack of respect to all people who bought the game on their design doc & Numenara rules.

The game can be good. Planescape Torment is a classic with cuts, horrible Ad&d 2nd rules, bugs at release etc... But kickstarter need to stop. If I want to invest in a game company, I'll bare share and can make money. If I feel generous, I can do donations. If I want be a customer, I'll buy a final product and judge on what they release. It's 3 way to support them totally legit that already exist.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Kulin » February 24th, 2017, 1:41 am

Takkik wrote:If Any investor was putting 5m on the table, you can be sure he will do all possible to get answers, will visit inxile etc... and they will do their best to make him confident that his cash is well spent. I'm sure with their publisher they don't stay silent like with us when they ask about stuff.
That's the thing. Kickstarter is allowing them to deliver whatever they want. And that is something I'm never going to support again. If there would be a platform that binds the developers with a contract to fulfil their promises and design targets, I would reconsider this. They sell no done game on kickstarter, but they sell a vision of a game. Changing that vision because the devs have different ideas should be only possible if the backers agree. For example: if they want to take 3 followers out and instead focus on the other 5 followers, they should explain this with some hard facts to their backers and start a vote if the backers agree. A vote that should be integrated in the kickstarter-system and is sent to all backers, to deliver the result back to the developers.

For me this 8 to 5 reduction was a very bad thing. Because on every play through of games like Baldurs Gate 2 i tend to built my party differently. For me the Banters and Relations create some kind of "atmosphere" in my group. One time i play a group with only girls. One time i built a group full of evil dudes. One time i built a group that is doing the gods work. You get the idea. So having less party members is indeed a very bad thing for me because it reduces my interest to play the game again and experience it with the viewpoints of different party members.

So i really don't care how big their quest-line is and how deep the party members background is. It doesn't need to fill books. Leave those huge quest-lines to other NPCs. Party members are important to me because they are a chance to influence the game's atmosphere. They are a tool to improve immersion.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Takkik » February 24th, 2017, 6:51 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXEcypS5mA

Just look at character sheet in the video. It's PS4 footage, I don't know the version (but posted the 22/02). No mention of focus at tier 4, just "castoff" where previously you go the focus showed. So perhaps they even removed the 3 basic foci from beta and put Castoff as your focus.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Devousa » February 24th, 2017, 7:04 am

Takkik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXEcypS5mA

Just look at character sheet in the video. It's PS4 footage, I don't know the version (but posted the 22/02). No mention of focus at tier 4, just "castoff" where previously you go the focus showed. So perhaps they even removed the 3 basic foci from beta and put Castoff as your focus.
If that's release version gameplay then I think it's a bit sad if descriptors and foci have been cut. :( Although even if it's a video I'd still be wary of jumping to too many conclusions. Maybe the LC just loses the descriptor and focus at some point of gameplay for gameplay purposes? We can truly only know when we see the release version next Tuesday.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Lord of Riva » February 24th, 2017, 7:28 am

Devousa wrote:
Takkik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgXEcypS5mA

Just look at character sheet in the video. It's PS4 footage, I don't know the version (but posted the 22/02). No mention of focus at tier 4, just "castoff" where previously you go the focus showed. So perhaps they even removed the 3 basic foci from beta and put Castoff as your focus.
If that's release version gameplay then I think it's a bit sad if descriptors and foci have been cut. :( Although even if it's a video I'd still be wary of jumping to too many conclusions. Maybe the LC just loses the descriptor and focus at some point of gameplay for gameplay purposes? We can truly only know when we see the release version next Tuesday.

Seriously i still want to know it, at least for me so i do know how to skill my char.

@Sear please, for the love of the holy Spaghetti monster,.please let us know, at least directly after release.

i would also love to know if weapon/Armor training is possible for a Nano ( i know this isnt in the Numenera rules) thanks in advance

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Devousa » February 24th, 2017, 8:00 am

It would be nice if some light was shed on this topic, yes. I would say that character creation is in the end one of the most important parts of the game so it is understandable that people are interested about it.

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Re: Character Creation - Determining Verb/Foci

Post by Serjo » February 24th, 2017, 9:45 am

It's odd that there as been so little official discussion about the gameplay in the months leading up to launch. Colin did the one "interactive quest video", but that felt slim compared to what I'm used to seeing from other Kickstarter RPGs (e.g. the seemingly endless amount of PoE live streams where the developers played through early footage, discussed combat strategies, talked about their party composition, etc.)

I know that Torment isn't a mechanics-focused game and that most of the gameplay consists of clicking on dialogue options, but I think that making a few videos about the combat systems, character mechanics, Foci, Legacies, etc. would have helped to get people engaged. Show us around the Stronghold, unlock a cool new ability, let us see how the devs come up with a strategy for a tough battle... that stuff can be very helpful in getting people's hopes up before a release.

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